5/9Willy AMPS 291,+4~402,+6~389,+8~420,+11~331 dose?

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Stephanie&Willy

Stephanie&Willy

Member Since 2011
Yesterday's Condo

Been so busy trying to help the DH with his project!

Willy seems to be doing pretty well... Zell has been terrorizing the house for the last 2 days (bullying EVERYONE)... I'm not sure why though but it's been especially bad. :cry: :cry: He's especially picking on Rasta and I. I am pretty sure Rasta was too traumatized this morning to use the litter box, but I'm not sure about that. UGH!!!! I spent a long time cleaning yesterday, what's a few more hours. :sad: ohmygod_smile

Got Willy to take a few swats at a toy last night... he is just not interested in playing (never has been). I am going to try to use food to encourage him to play and become more active. :lol: :lol: Like maybe not give him his meals until he shows interest in a toy, then til he does some action towards the toy, then plays with the toy. It is wishful thinking but it won't hurt to try. He really needs to get move active and he's not bothered by things like the vacuum or me sweeping... ask me how I know :twisted: :lol:

I hope everyone is having a great Monday and has a wonderful week!
 
Re: 5/9 Willy AMPS 291, +4~402 dose?

(If I understand correctly) Tonight will be 72hrs since Willy started to bounce from a blue nadir on 5/6. I think I will hold his dose for another 2 cycles to see how he reacts, but assuming all numbers stay as they are right now and don't start to show more blue, etc. should I increase his dose again or should I hold for longer? I know I could (probably) safely increase tomorrow morning, but I would like to collect some data (unless that is a totally bad idea). If I were to increase would I go up to 5.25u (nadir are in the 200-300 range)?

I am so bad at interpreting numbers and what they mean!

Should we be considering starting over? Though, I do not know where to do that from or how to go about doing it (is there any prep needed, etc.). My reasoning is this: we did not start home testing until recently (last few months)-- we were getting fructosamine tests done and they were coming back really high but that doesn't seem like an accurate method to determine dosing. It is very possible his ideal dose got missed or his "average" BG shown by the fruc. test was off because of a bad day or him getting into trouble... it would only take 1-2 bad days during this time to really throw it off. We also were not using appropriate insulin handling techniques during this time, so there's another reason fruc. test could have come back so high! At what point does this become necessary to attempt (since too much often looks like not enough)? I don't want to set him back if he really is supposed to be this high (or higher)... but I worry.

I appreciate any input that can be offered!
 
Re: 5/9Willy AMPS 291, +4~402, +6~389 dose?

no useful input from me...but giving your post a bump for better eyes...
 
Re: 5/9Willy AMPS 291, +4~402, +6~389 dose?

Another bump! Thanks for stopping by today. :) If it makes you feel better, there was definitely a time I was making the same comments about other kitties' numbers, and now here we are today. :cool:

Hope you guys have a great night!!
 
Re: 5/9Willy AMPS 291, +4~402, +6~389 dose?

Wiser eyes than mine need to answer your question. I do know it is possible to have high numbers from too much insulin but I have no idea if you missed Willy's fitting dose. Ronnie has a great suggestion so the wise ones here can figure it out for you.

LOVE your family....especially all the photos of Zell cuddling Willy...what a crack up! Looks like Willy hit the lotto when you thought he was Rasta!!
 
Re: 5/9Willy AMPS 291, +4~402, +6~389, +8~420 dose?

Thanks guys for the comments and bumps! I really appreciate all the help... I had a glass of wine and did my best to relax and try to recharge some last night-- I get myself too worked up worrying. I woke up feeling a lot better than I have been. Looking forward to this weekend because it will be the first weekend in a long time that my DH and I will get to spend relaxing free time together! Yay!

I will get a +11 for sure. I have all day tomorrow too if there's any particular times I should test that could help. Willy doesn't mind the pricks at all! :lol: Just a small warning, we give Willy's his shots later than most do (from what I have noticed)--- I won't forget the +11, it will be in ~2 hours!
 
I just did his +11. I wish I had more knowledge about how to interpret his numbers, I really appreciate you all taking the time to look at this for us.

Is somogyi rebound the same as the bounce often referred to here? Reading this http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Rebound specifically this part: "If overdose goes on for a few days, you may see few or no low readings, and just lots of very high and unpredictable readings that don't seem to correlate with feeding." makes me really wonder if that is what is going on with Willy... what do you all think? nailbite_smile I might be overreacting and this is normal for a dose increase and pushing on is appropriate.

AMPS 291
+4 402
+6 389
+8 420
+11 331


Willy and I both are very thankful for any advice/insight/help that can be offered.
 
Stephanie: I think it is important to have some of the experienced folks look at Willy's SS but most of them are on the East Coast and so are asleep right now. You took him up pretty much according to protocol; there were a few times that you bumped him up a little fast early on. But he did get into green at 4.75u. I'm not sure what time you are up in the morning but your best chance of catching Sienne or Laurie is probably early our time (7 or 7:30 am). Libby is sometimes on at night during the week but she's on the East Coast and works during the week so it's tough for her. Jill's DGS is in the hospital. I know there have been times when they have started some cats over at lower doses and built back up slowly but that was usually when the vet put the kitty on a high dose. Also, there are others like Gus, Punkin, etc. who are on pretty high doses of lantus and so it is also possible that Willy just isn't there yet. Sorry I can't help you with this but one of them needs to see it. You can also send Sienne a PM tonight and ask her to look at your SS and comment on this condo when she is up tomorrow and before she goes to work.

Good luck....and again, sorry I can't help. I'm thinking Ronnie (and I) thought your +11 would be earlier when more people are up. Hang in there.
 
It's ok Marje, thank you for your response! Hehe, I tried to warn about the +11 but I kept getting pulled away ohmygod_smile

Unfortunately, we give our shots later (11am/11pm) but it was really the only time that we could find that was consistent for the entire week. We don't LOVE it, but it's been working for us. ;-)

I will probably be heading to bed in the next hour or two (exhausted) but I will make sure to post a condo for tomorrow in advance and check the answers before I do anything in the morning.

Willy is acting normal, so I'm not terribly worked up... I just worry about him, in general, even when he's perfectly fine because I want to take the best care of him that I can. I've been getting frustrated because I wish I knew more about what I was doing. I'm learning a lot though! So that's very good.
 
Stephanie: they'll want you to keep this condo and not open a new one until you are ready for AMPS; that's why I suggest you send Sienne a pm so she can look at Willy's SS. If you explain your shot times, she will understand and she's very good. I'm sorry....I didn't read your post closely enough that said your shot times are later but that's ok....it needs to fit your schedule.

On Somogyi....there's been alot of discussion on it in LL and I have asked the question before. Somogyi isn't the same as the bounces we see that we call "liver training school". Sienne has done exhaustive research on somogyi and there is no evidence that it occurs in cats. I know reading the definition of it, it sounds like what our cats are doing but it isn't. However, Jill has told me that sometimes too much insulin can result in higher numbers. You can see this on Gracie's SS when she got several reductions really fast and then failed to hold the last one. I took her back up per the protocol and even though she had done well at all the levels on the way down, when I took her back up through them, all she did was give me high numbers. Very frustrating. When I finally got her back up to f1u, she had a breakthrough and came rolling right back down again and earned four reductions in a week. Having said that, my gut tells me that Willy is not yet at his fitting dose but you really need one of the experienced set of eyes on it to tell you what's going on.

Hope you get some rest. Willy has a very good bean!
 
Marje

Oh ok (about the new thread thing)! ohmygod_smile I will do that! I think I will also add my shot times to my SS too.

I did really well in stats classes in college, I like knowing what numbers mean.. I've been getting frustrated that I'm not picking up on things as fast as I feel that I should be. :oops: I like looking for meaning and patterns, but in this case, it's going to be the death of me! cat(2)_steam :lol: :lol: I have no idea what's going on and making sense of the numbers just makes them make less sense to me. :lol:

My DH brought up an idea tonight (we finally had a few minutes to talk about it! yay!) but we still aren't too familiar with everything so we don't know how viable it is. :idea: It is, when we were going through our family emergency, we did leave our insulin at home so Willy went without a shot in the PM and then got his AM one very late. He was wondering if it was possible that he used up all or most of his "shed" and that coupled with stress maybe had an effect... but it is about a week later. Maybe either the green numbers (when we got back) or the numbers now are an after effect of that? We have no idea, but it was a fairly plausible (sounding!) thought.

Thank you for your help Marje and Miss Gracie! We very much appreciate it.
 
A fructosamine test isn't a bad thing to base numbers on if you're not home testing. I wouldn't worry about that.

Maybe you mentioned this early on and I'm not remembering but how did you and your vet work Willy's dose up to where it was when you started posting here? If there were big jumps in dose, it might be worth considering a re-start but it doesn't seem to me that Willy is over his dose. Generally, if a cat is getting too much insulin, you'll see an inverted curve. (You can also see this if there's not enough insulin so it's not a dead giveaway.)

I would go ahead and increase Willy's dose unless something happened overnight that would suggest otherwise.

I honestly don't know that I would trust the info on the PetWiki page. The references are not primarily from the research literature -- unless you consider Drs. Foster & Smith "research." The one article from the New England Journal of Medicine is a report on 5 humans. They also are not defining Somogyi as chronic rebound, which is typically how it is regarded.
 
stephanie, i sympathize with your frustration about the numbers. i'm an analytical type too, and it's taken me quite a while to realize that this doesn't really fit into a neat mathematical equation. i thought that i would get "punkin + perfect units of insulin divided by meals given identically every day = OTJ" bwahahahahaha. seriously - that's what i thought.

now i totally get why people go blind from diabetes, end up with their feet amputated, etc., because they couldn't regulate their blood sugar. it's a hormone - i don't know if you have daughters, but as soon as I totally "GOT" that, it made sense. daughters in puberty . . . . hormones uncontrolled mean tears, slammed doors & great drama.

the good thing for me in all of this is that diabetes runs in my family everywhere through both of my parent's sides of the family, regardless of weight. so after dealing with it with punkin, i am extra motivated to prevent it in me if i can.

anyway, maybe some of this will help you. i am trying to relax and just take it a day at a time now. oh yeah, and punkin gets 7.0ish units - and i tell myself the goal isn't to save insulin, it's to have punkin in numbers where he doesn't have organ damage.
 
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