5/3 Gracie PMPS 338 +2 314 +4 312

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Marje and Gracie

Marje and Gracie

Member Since 2010
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Gracie's Yesterday

Recap:
AMPS: 332 10th cycle f .5u
+2: 306
+6: 225
+10: 162
PMPS: 106 11th cycle f .5u
+1: 96
+2: 82
+3: 86
+4: 117
+6: 217

Good morning and wishing everyone a happy Tuesday! :-D It is Tuesday, right? :lol: :lol: Sending healing vines to all ailing kitties and beans in Lantus Land. You are in our thoughts.

Gracie had a few hours of healing range numbers yesterday. We're still holding the f .5u dose but I'd really like to see her with longer healing cycles between the bounces instead of her popping up at +4. Since we had a great bunch of info from Jill yesterday, I'm cutting this part short and pasting in that info as well as some thoughts Mike and I have.

Mike's post to Jill last night:

It looks like Gracie broke her bounce and is starting another one. This is why we sometimes get antsy about holding her at a dose too long. it appears as if she has enough insulin to get her down, just not keep her down. Her cycle today and tonight was very gradually descending and she didn't get low, so the immediate bounce is frustrating and hard to understand. Not enough juice? Still settling into the dose? I think we are decided on shooting the same dose in the morning and see what she does tomorrow. As long as she is getting fairly good cycles with short bounces we can live with that, but for how long it... seems there is no right or wrong answer.

Jill - Thanks for the post. My/our interpretation in a nutshell: if and when we get Gracie to a dose where she is throwing green cycles of longer duration at lower numbers, we are going to manipulate her to keep her from earning reductions like we always have. the difference will be the dose reduction trigger point. If she is dropping rapidly towards/through 50 we will use carbs to slow and stop it. If, on the other hand, she is calmly surfing in the 40's we aren't going to carb her to get her up into the 50's. She won't get an automatic dose reduction for any specified number of times below 50. 40 becomes the new trigger point, and 1 time below 40 gets her a reduction, just like it always has. Is my interpretation in line with your thoughts? Thanks as always for your wise counsel and help with our little girl
Click to expand...

My thoughts: Jill and I posted on yesterday's condo about Gracie's SS similarity to Mocha's but that Peter and Devon held Mocha for long periods of time at a certain dose....they were very patient about waiting on the bounces. Jill provided some great info on the Start Low, Go Slow protocol (just click the link to yesterday's condo to read). We are willing to try this as well as long as Gracie is getting decent normal cycles between the bounces. For Mocha, she would have lovely blue or green cycles and then bounce. Right now, we aren't getting that with Gracie. She slides down, gets some normal numbers for a bit, and then pops back up by +4 as Mike said. For that reason, I wonder if we shouldn't take her back up to sk .75u tonight (depending on what she does today) and get her moving again, hold that dose for as long as possible (keeping her above 40 as long as we can), and then when we reduce, try again the same way. I know there is no right/wrong answer and I don't want to chase numbers but I do want her to have less time above the renal threshold and more time in healing ranges or I don't see how she gets Mr. P to heal if most of her time is in a bounce and then she spends a few hours in healing ranges. And I don't like the "side effects" I see in her when she's this bouncy....quieter, a little more dandruff, more urine output, etc.

Jill..does this seem reasonable or am I being too impatient and PLEASE do be candid....I'm pretty tough :lol: :lol: Thank you. And we always welcome other thoughts as well. Have a great day.
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303

Marjorie, we are pretty much on the same modification of the protocol that you are going to try. We do still get bounces, but they seem to be shorter now. It is frustrating and you keep thinking that we should be doing things more aggressively, then she gets some good days just as we are about to cave and up her dose. Now when I really want to give a little more juice I make myself wait one more day and re-evaluate. Usually Tess makes the choice herself, like Sunday. The more we let her lead the way the better she seems to do.

When we switched to Lev it wasn't the magic bullet , but we have been getting more controlled drops and I'm finally getting the hang of what Tess is doing on it. The hardest part is waiting 3 or 4 hours to start seeing an effect from the shot. I know it has been suggested for you too. Sometimes just the change can stimulate things enough to jump start the pancreas. How close are you to refill time? The only downside I've found is the later nadir and some really long nights. :roll: :lol:
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303

hi guys - I think I would say the same thing that Ann did. The more I let Mannie lead the way, the better he does. can so relate to the frustrating part, and the thinking I should be more aggressive. Good luck on the path you choose to take.

I have also thought about the Lev, but am really stalling on that one. There is no way I can handle longer nights than they already are, and the late nadir. That alone would put a huge dent in how things work around here. soooooo - not too sure what I will do about it, as it too has been suggested to me on a couple of occasions.

Have a good one, and Gracie?: down you go.

Gracie!! On our way - fun in the sun there! See you! ~ Mannie
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303

Having been where you are, I would sit on my hands and hold the dose. I can post a few of the comments when Tuffy was bouncing:

ahhh sorry my friend, no cat has ever gotten OTJ without drama along the way. and if she keeps going like she is, that is where this is most likely headed. you're always in control, don't worry. tuffy doesn't.

agree with jill totally. need to let a dose show what it can do, can't react to higher PS with more insulin on lantus. either the straight or fat 2.0 units sounds good to me too.

the great news though is that she sure wants to be green now. that is a good thing. barbara, you are doing a great job. your cat has never been an easy one no matter what phase of this process she was in. if anyone deserves their cat to go OTJ it is you. got everything crossed that it happens.
Click to expand...

These are from jojo, and Libby and Jill also posted similar comments. I know it is difficult but I believe the pancreas is not the problem it is the liver reacting to the lower numbers and feeling it has to compensate. LTS. As I have said before, I wanted regulation, never thought of OTJ. That was a gift from all the guidance I received here. Hang in there, Gracie is leading the dance. The marathon continues. Hope this helps.
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59

Yes...you read it right...59. And I checked it with two meters. Two possibilities here:
1. I got a wrong reading this morning and she wasn't that high but more likely it is #2
2. the plumber was here at her +1 feeding and she was under the sofa. I put her food under there with her and she was licking it when I went back in the
kitchen but I can't rule out the possibility that Tobey ate it ohmygod_smile ohmygod_smile and that she got little to no +1 food which means the insulin would have dropped her big time. I'm thinking she would have been headed down anyway but this just sped it up.

We gave her some karo and an extra large helping of food. If Tobey ate it, he ate it fast because he was in and out of the kitchen with us. That's what I get for having such a d*$(@ chatty plumber :lol: :lol: Rechecking her at +2.5.

eta: 61 @ +2.5.....we're going to let her be for this....I don't think the karo has kicked in yet.
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59 +2.5 61

wow - no surprise. look at her go. hold the dose, IMHO. Sure is nice to see that green! Gracie - you rock, once again, food or no food, plumber or no plumber... off to the green lagoon for you. :cool: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I really like what Barbara wrote - no doubt about any of it.
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59 +2.5 61

It sure is complex. You guys are handling all the variables so well. At some point, when Gracie says so, it will all come together. In the meantime, I hear that you are having a pool party today. Rusty is on his way with some bison burgers for the grill.

That is quite a drop, Gracie!!!

Ella & Rusty
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59 +2.5 61

She sure does like greens doesn't she? I'd be clueless on what to do with her numbers; it sounds like you're getting awesome help with her unique situation. Good luck! (BTW that avatar pic is adorable!)
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59 +2.5 61

Man Plans, and Cats laugh....that's what I thought of..Gracie is just doing what she is doing--
This disease is the most unpredictable..The Sugar Dance~~~~ So many people chasing the OTJ thing,
better for it to happen in it's own time with some assistance from us..
For me, seeing my cat be well was my only objective--I waited the 1st year for OTJ, The second,and lo & behold, we are still here for year 3, but I have what I wanted anyway--a well kitty!

Hope Gracie gets to where you want in her own time also...Hugs from us!
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59 +2.5 61 +3 80

Hi guys .. I do have to say I was quite shocked that anyone was studying mochas SS that well! I'm not quite sure we were more patient at holding doses then others or not, but I thought at one point we were told if mocha had some blues ore greens in a cycle, then she wasn't ready for a dose increase .. I might not be remembering that right, and forgive me if I'm not ..

I know this is frustrating and no matter how much reading/studying/praying/begging that we are doing, some days it just never feels like it is enough .. but you guys are doing so GREAT with gracie, always staying up half the nights with her to make sure it's all safe before you go to bed .. she couldn't be in better hands ..
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59 +2.5 61 +3 80 +4 164

Boy is my day slipping away. Vet appt at 3 for Teddi and Gracie (follow up).

Weird cycle....I think she dropped fast and the karo added to the bounce. Oh well...bygones at this point :-D

Ann: Mike and I have considered Lev but, like Michelle, I just don't know if we can work around that late onset and nadir. I honestly don't know how you all do it. I'm going to look at Tess's SS again. I know it has helped the drops with Tess but, other than this morning which I swear was no food, Gracie has stopped those drops. You might be right that just a different insulin might kick her in the patootie but not sure yet if we are up to that. I have detected that you were really making Tess earn her reductions. You are also right about patience.

Michelle: I guess I don't understand the part about letting them lead. What if they lead you to constantly high numbers? Then you have to make a decision right?

Barbara: thank you for sharing those words from the very wise JoJo, Jill, and LIbby. Drama...oh yeah...we got that!!! Am trying fervently to sit on my hands :-D

Ella: we're trying!! I just really need that "Gracie Manual" :lol: :YMSIGH: Tobey said to tell you he's up for more bucket brigade if you need him!

Kristin: she likes 40s and I know she wants to be there if she just would. Yes....we've always gotten awesome help from everyone in LL! Glad you like her avatar...she is an adorable little girl!

Roni: I know...she will get there on her on time and if we have to be doing this in three years, then we have to; but obviously with a young cat like Gracie, we hope for at least some really nice tight regulation!

Devon: oh, girl, I look at Mocha's SS all the time!!! In fact, I went back and looked at it again this morning for the fine details and did see several times where Mocha did pop back up before her nadir. And yes, compared to me, you have the patience of JOB!!! And yes, if Gracie would have some green/blue one cycle a day, I wouldn't even think about a dosecrease. Thanks for your kind words...no one could ever say that we haven't sacrificed our "normal" lives for her; wish I could remember what that was :lol:

Mike and I have decided to keep her on the f .5u for a few more cycles....at least through Wed which will be 15 cycles and see what she does. Then we'll reevaluate. We feel that Jill and so many others of you believe we have much to gain by holding this dose longer so we'll try it. Wish we had a "gritting the teeth" emoticon :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59 +2.5 61 +3 80 +4 164

hi - to answer your question - for me: yes, you let them lead, but there are time when you have to intervene, and guide the ship. Mannie had been on one dose for over 60 cycles with great results, but one day, after 5 days of yellows and blues and no more greens, it was apparent that the last bounce was done, that he had lost momentum, and this bean needed to push on his ship a little. Yes, you have to make decisions. wait, push, wonder, all decisions. and I truly believe all that you have done for Gracie have been good choices. she is complex, more so than Mannie. You may have to intervene more than I do. :-D

I think you could be right about the no food this morning. She will recover.

I hope you guys had a good day.

Gracie? How as the vetty? Scary? I was worried.... Mannie
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie AMPS 303 +2 59 +2.5 61 +3 80 +4 164

The amazing Gracie strikes again! Come on guys, what's happening now?
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie PMPS 338

Hi Michelle and Ann: thanks for hanging in there with us. It has been an ugly day. Now I am sure that Tobey got Gracie's food and that was what caused that big drop as she bounced hard. Vetty visit went well and Gracie is doing fine on all accounts there. I actually breathed a sigh of relief with her PMPS number. However, my DBFF, who has been gone, came over to have pizza with us on the patio and while we were sitting outside yucking it up (Jeanne, Mike, and me), Gracie got up on the kitchen counter and got the lid off Tobey's glass dish holding his food and ate quite a large portion of Wellness chicken and herring (6%). Not even going to do a +2 tonight as I can expect to see a pretty big food spike at this low dose. I am trying to keep positive about this by thinking (1) it wasn't dry food or even contraband (2) it is food that is in her rotation although we don't usually give it to her unless she's dropping (3) it was early in her cycle (4) her number was already high so we didn't ruin a beautiful cycle (5) it wasn't pizza :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ....you get the drift.

Still holding the f .5u dose. I imagine we won't see any action tonight but am hoping tomorrow is a better day. At least she seemed to enjoy her cleverness :lol: :lol:

We're headed for the spa outside...it's a beautiful night. I need to gaze upon the stars and Heaven and grieve for Roni, Brad, Moonie. We send our prayers to them.
 
Re: 5/3 Gracie PMPS 338

:lol: :lol: on the food thief. That would be Mannie. Gracie - you clever little girl. Well, at least it was contraband...

Your evening sounds lovely, enjoy!

I too cannot believe that Copper has gone ahead. It just was so unexpected.

And yes - tomorrow is another day, hopefully a better one.

Gracie - we are all at the lagoon - come anyways - tonight it doesn't matter what color you are. See you! ~Mannie
 
responding to marjorie's PM here:

sorry this has to be so brief as i'm running late, but i did want to get back to you.

mike's question --- basically you would be following the TR protocol by substituting 40s for 50s.

Don't let the cat go below 50 mg/dl (N.B. there are some cats that do well with BGs >=40 mg/dl and are difficult to regulate unless the dose is held at BGs in this range, but a cautious approach should be used until you are sure your cat reacts this way).
http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm

in other words, if she drops below 40 reduce the dose. you would also want to reduce if it becomes too difficult to let her surf the 40s. many cats drop into the 30s without any problems, but i have to say, i don't care much for the 30s myself. i'm lucky in that alex is so darn carb sensitive that a drop to the 30s can easily be bumped up with a piece of freeze dried chicken, but i'm never sure if it'll be that easy with somebody else's cat. safety is the number one priority!

ideally, you'll want to hold onto the dose as long as possible because of gracie's history of not holding reductions well.

as far as taking the dose back up to a skinny 0.75u goes ----
if you decide to go this route, be careful with the timing. you don't want to increase as she's clearing a bounce.
 
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