5/20 - Zen - PMPS 269 | +1 372 | +2 315 | +3 292

E

Emily R

Member Since 2021
We had a big bounce after yesterday's little venture into Green-Land. Gave him 1U this morning before I saw Tiff's comment that he'd earned a reduction ( :oops: ), and keeping him on exclusively Tiki Cat unless he gets crazy-low again this morning. Will check him more frequently than we did yesterday-- that's the fastest drop I've ever seen him have on Lantus.

Spreadsheet
 
Link to your previous condo:
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...nd-or-progressing-toward-an-otj-trial.247554/

Looks like he came up pretty easily with the DM Selects which is 10% carbs. Later in the cycle, you need less carbs to bring their numbers up.

I wasn't sure after I read your previous condo but are you now feeding Zen only Tiki Cat canned food? What carb%? Could you please add that to your Signature? Thanks! :-)

And are you following TR or SLGS? Your SS says TR.

@tiffmaxee 's name is Elise :smuggrin:
 
tiffmaxee 's name is Elise :smuggrin:
Click to expand...
:facepalm: Thank you! Sorry, Elise!

We're following TR. Zen is on the Senior Mousse and the Aloha Friends (fish and pumpkin), which is also supposed to be 0 carbs (though my calculations say 2.7% carbs... my calculations never match what's in the database for some reason, though.) Crude Protein (min)11% | Crude Fat (min)1.8% | Crude Fiber (max)0.5% | Moisture (max)84% | Taurine (min)0.04% - I'll add his food to my signature now!
 
Last edited:
BalanceIT.com According to the BalanceIT site the Aloha Friends is around 14% carbs. Put your numbers into the link and see what you get. Ash is not always provided. I could be very wrong but I love this site. Very helpful when determining protein, fat and carbs.
 
Emily + Zen said:
my calculations
Click to expand...
Summer and Susie said:
According to the BalanceIT site
Click to expand...
Using Guaranteed Analysis (GA) values (which is looks like both of you are doing) is an okay place to start but leaves a lot of room for inaccuracy simply due to the nature of GA values. GA values show you the minimum but each listed value could be higher. One of the moderators (Marje) has a whole page explaining this and how to calculate the carb % - it also includes a link to an article on GA values and how they aren't super awesome - what we are always looking for is the % of total calories that are carbs. This admittedly can be hard to determine if a pet food company does not publicly list as-fed or dmb values (which can then be plugged into Marje's formula); some companies will provide this information upon customer request but they are not required to do so.

I personally would just keep all of this mind if using GA values (i.e. know your carb % may not be accurate) and I would refer people to Marje's write-up - Calculating % Calories from Carbohydrates. Hope that helps :cat:
 
Thanks, both! I did Marje's calculations, and also put the food into BalanceIT to compare results. Marje's calculations had been what I was using for GA values and % of calories from carbs, but I thought all of the numbers here were based off of GA, and not % of calories from carbs. Let me know which I should be going off of. This is on the Food tab of my spreadsheet if you'd like to look.

upload_2021-5-20_10-47-50.png
 

Attachments

  • upload_2021-5-20_10-47-50.png
    upload_2021-5-20_10-47-50.png
    25.5 KB · Views: 194
JaxBenji said:
Using Guaranteed Analysis (GA) values (which is looks like both of you are doing) is an okay place to start but leaves a lot of room for inaccuracy simply due to the nature of GA values. GA values show you the minimum but each listed value could be higher. One of the moderators (Marje) has a whole page explaining this and how to calculate the carb % - it also includes a link to an article on GA values and how they aren't super awesome - what we are always looking for is the % of total calories that are carbs. This admittedly can be hard to determine if a pet food company does not publicly list as-fed or dmb values (which can then be plugged into Marje's formula); some companies will provide this information upon customer request but they are not required to do so.

I personally would just keep all of this mind if using GA values (i.e. know your carb % may not be accurate) and I would refer people to Marje's write-up - Calculating % Calories from Carbohydrates. Hope that helps :cat:
Click to expand...
So looking at Emily's wonderful information just what % of calories from carbs should we be using for our cats? Is there a minimum and a maximum?
 
Emily + Zen said:
Thanks, both! I did Marje's calculations, and also put the food into BalanceIT to compare results. Marje's calculations had been what I was using for GA values and % of calories from carbs, but I thought all of the numbers here were based off of GA, and not % of calories from carbs. Let me know which I should be going off of. This is on the Food tab of my spreadsheet if you'd like to look.

View attachment 60969
Click to expand...
Great job, Emily. I have never understood Marje's link but maybe I need to look at it again. Also, it looks like the BalanceIT site did provide the % of calories from carbs with the Aloha food. Am I correct?
 
Summer and Susie said:
So looking at Emily's wonderful information just what % of calories from carbs should we be using for our cats? Is there a minimum and a maximum?
Click to expand...
Lc is up to 10%,. If carb sensitive you want less than 10%. Mc is 10-15 or 17%. Above that is hc. These are all approximate as we can’t ever fit an exact % of carbs being at the mercy of the food manufacturers and since they make the food in huge batches. Some cats do best on slightly higher carbs while others are very carb sensitive. It’s trial and error until you figure out your cat.
 
Thank you, Elise! We'll be getting him back into LC ASAP. We had been giving him DM Pate and Tiki Cat Senior Mousse before we switched him off of the DM pate (entirely because I thought it was MC based on the GA values and what was in Lisa Pierson's Food Spreadsheet), and it looks like that's the best path for him moving forward. I bet we'll get to reduction land again after a few days back on that.

Summer, you're more than welcome to take a look at the little formula I popped into my spreadsheet for Marje's calculations. And, of course, feel free to copy it over to your own spreadsheet for your use as well if you'd like. :)

Thanks, all!
 
@Emily + Zen you seem very organized! Can you share where you got the As Fed or DMB values for tiki cat? I feed tiki to my civvie and have never found these values online (nor have I tried to request them). I was on the tiki site this morning looking for them so wondering if I’m missing them? If you have either set of these values, these then get plugged into marje’s calc (not the GA values…sorry if I’m stating something you already know :bighug:).
 
Emily + Zen said:
Thank you, Elise! We'll be getting him back into LC ASAP. We had been giving him DM Pate and Tiki Cat Senior Mousse before we switched him off of the DM pate (entirely because I thought it was MC based on the GA values and what was in Lisa Pierson's Food Spreadsheet), and it looks like that's the best path for him moving forward. I bet we'll get to reduction land again after a few days back on that.

Summer, you're more than welcome to take a look at the little formula I popped into my spreadsheet for Marje's calculations. And, of course, feel free to copy it over to your own spreadsheet for your use as well if you'd like. :)

Thanks, all!
Click to expand...
Thanks, Emily!
 
@JaxBenji - Okay, so I re-read the article thoroughly, and I'm not using DMB or as-fed *yet*. Still working off of inaccurate GA values at the moment, which would explain why I'm seeing such discrepancies in the numbers. BUT I am going to call Tiki Cat tomorrow and see if they'll send either as-fed or DMB. They sent to one of us back in 2012... I think they're due. ;) I'll let everyone know what I hear from them.

ALSO, they apparently did list as-fed on their old website. Check it out. If you're using one of their older varieties, you can grab the data (though it's a bit old) from there.

This website claims to use as-fed values for everything, but I'm finding that hard to believe based on the number of 0-carb Tiki Cat Aloha Friends entries. That would be a pretty big discrepancy from the ~14% we discovered today, but it's not impossible.

Updating Zen's spreadsheet for tonight as we speak. We're planning for another 1U tomorrow at 7am Eastern, and frankly, given what we've seen from the food today, I'm curious whether or not you all think we should reset the clock on the 6-cycle rule for TR. If we've been feeding medium-to-high carb food, I don't feel like that's valid data. Curious what the others think.
 
Emily + Zen said:
call Tiki Cat tomorrow
Click to expand...
I had a hunch you were savvy enough to figure out the (confusing as heck :p) food math :bighug: I'm also impressed with your website digging :joyful:

Hoping you can get some answers from Tiki (and paws crossed the ones Zen likes are low carb like many of the other varieties!). Seems promising based on that thread you found.

Oh and I think the CRF site you linked uses Dry Matter Analysis (under the Your Goals section).

I don't really advise to dosing but maybe Elise @tiffmaxee can advise.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top