5/12 suzie AMPS 293 - dose advice please

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Maria & Suzie

Maria & Suzie

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Morning all,

Last night, after a day of barely eating,she,just after her evening shot, decided that eating almost half a can of Gourmet (Fancy Feast) was a good idea (and thereby giving me a good night's sleep).

her PMPS yesterday was 219, the lowest PMPS we have had so far. I know blue & green is what to aim for, but after who knows how long with undiagnosed diabetes, and then the no eating, lots of dreaded pink & red figures, and with a horrible bounce one day, I'm already happy to see yellows and some blues appearing. (pluse she clearly feels much better)

I give her evening shot at 10pm, and then encourage my husband to watch movies till late after I go to bed, so he tests her before he goes to bed, which was at PMPS +3 last night, and it was down to 191 !

Her AMPS this morning was 293. I can see she ate a good deal during the night though (probably to make up for the almost no eating the day before). She was perky and talkative this morning, so she clearly feels ok even with the numbers being yellow.

What I am wondering is that we have just started our 6th day of the 3.5 IU dose. The vet has suggested to go up to 4.0 IU, but I haven't done so yet since I am doing what I can to transition her to wet foods (thanks all for the Fancy Feast/Gourmet tip, she likes it and manages even without teeth to eat it pretty well) and actually after the bounce with the horrible "HI"s the other day, I do find there is an overall downward trend to her numbers (even though they are still lingering in the yellows).

Any tips?

Thanks !

Maria
 
Good morning....not sure if it is still morning where you are.
You are right not to raise the dose while transitioning to low carb wet food. I would watch and test when you can because the numbers can change pretty quickly when making a food change.
It looks like you are starting to see some blue which is good.
I am sure others will be along soon to give more advice. I am glad your husband is doing the late shift.....the more data the better. :smile:
 
Hi Maria,

You may need to increase the dose, but since you are seeing some better numbers (blues are nice!) I would give it a few more cycles (shots) at this dose and I would suggest waiting until you get those 1/2 unit marked syringes so you can make the increase by .25U (to 3.75U) a whole half unit can be too much.

It is typical with insulins like Lantus that you won't see a real drop or a pronounced curve. What you could see is that Suzie remains in those yellow numbers (maybe a blue here and there) but stays away from red and pink for the most part. In effect the "curve" becomes a more or less gentle rolling straight line but at a lower overall maximum. After a few more days on this dose that maximum may drop down even more into the low yellows and high blues. When you increase the dose by .25U it may push you into the next bracket where the curve (or rather line) is mostly in the blues and touches of green. This is truly the best that can happen. Some cats don't follow this pattern and are labeled "bouncers" they tend to have that flat curve for several days then drop suddenly into the greens and shoot back into the reds within hours, it then takes them several cycles to return to that straight line before they dive again and hit the trampoline and bounce. Even those cats eventually get to remission earning the decreases when they dive, it just takes them longer because they need more time to level off after bouncing before they get to the next decrease. It's also more frustrating for thier beans because they "see" every bounce as a setback, which it isn't really, it's just a pause in progress (they are not really moving backwards, they just aren't moving fowards temporarily)

Glad Suzie is eating well and enjoys the Gourmet Gold!
 
Managed to make it to an Aldi today, but also managed to rush out of the house without Monique's list of low-carb Aldi foods.

I realized in the store though that the selection here in Belgium is different from Germany (where the stores are physically bigger and stock more items). So what I did was buy one of each flavour of what seemed to be their premium brand "Juliet". They have premium Juliet in 400g cans, a really cheap one in cans (I didn't get that one) and a premium Juliet in 100g aluminium dishes.

I have become a crazy woman who takes pictures of cat food packaging in my living room to share on the board, but I can't figure out how to get the image to appear in the post. I've looked at the FAQs that talk about attachements, but can't find out how to actually do it.

I'd really like to show Monique what the packages look like to be sure that they are the low-carb ones she's feeding her cats? Just to be super-sure, how on earth can I tell by the info on the label? They seem to list everything EXCEPT the amount of carbs on there !

My husband has been sent on a mission, on his way to a business meeting this afternoon, he is to stop by a Lidl and get some of their premium food for us to study. I figure that what Suzie can't/won't eat will be snarfed by one of my civvies.

Oh, and her glucose just now, at +5 was 192, so we have snuck in a blue reading today. She's eaten about 1/2 a can of Gourmet Gold so far today, and some dry Royal Canin.
 
Hi,

I love reading about kitty progress. Congratulations!

To post a picture, just look down below the main message box (where you post your thread replies and such) and you will see an area marked Upload attachment.
-- Click the Browse button next to the Filename field and look around on your hard drive for your picture.
-- When you find it, highlight it and click Open in the dialog box.
-- You'll come back to the post pane. Click Add the file.

Now, you'll see the name of the file and a Place inline button next to it. Click that and if the file is small enough, it will appear in the post. Otherwise, you'll get a link folks have to click.

Hope that helps!
 
Yeah!!!! Suzie got into the blues!

Try this for the photo:

〮Photo must be less than 20 K
〮Click "upload attachment" tab under the text body window (below the Preview and Submit buttons)
〮Choose your file and then click Add the File button
〮After adding the file a new box appears above the Preview and Submit buttons with a button to place the photo inline, otherwise it will show at the end of the post
 
Happy to see progress you are making!! YES you are making great Progress!
Try mixing the dry food with the wet, then gradually use less & less dry each meal, & I feel that BG will come down even more!
Also, I would wait on raising the dose & try to work on getting off the dry--world of difference-
Great Job here!! :-D
 
Thanks for the tips on uploading an attachment. I need to reduce the picture to below 20k but have not managed to get it smaller than 54k, it'll have to wait till I can get some help with that at home.

Yes, we're so happy to be seeing yellows with some blues.

Suzie's routine is basically sleeping on her side in the "dead cat pose", barely breathing and regularly scaring the heck out of us, and then suddenly waking up, looking alert and waddling over to the food bowl. She had almost completely stopped eating 2 weeks ago, so we are thrilled ! The fact that she is grooming herself is also a sign we are gleeful at!

Ok, so I'll not panic at the yellows, stick to my guns (and the current dose for now) and try to shift her over to soft more & more (hence the buying of different types to see what we can entice her with, at her age, smell of the food is everything!)

Another question - what do most folks do about catsitting for a diabetic cat for vacations? I should have been on vacation now, but cancelled it for Suzie's sake, but have a vacation coming up in July (right when things are busy). Unfortunately, I have no friends of family that are able to, or dare, deal with Suzie's situation. Am hoping that by July she will be stable enough that the constant testing is not needed and it'll be a case of someone giving her her shots & putting the right food down.... Realize it's different in US & Canada from Europe, but any ideas or tips can be useful for inspiration !!!

thanks!

Maria & Suzie
 
Hmm....I looked under aldi.be and all I can get is the weekly flyer which doesn't have pictures of the foods.

What we have here is probably the same just another name and label. The one I buy is actually made by Satun Petfoods in Veerden (a division of Aninmonda)

At Aldi Süd it is called Shah and comes in 200/205g cans with a pull ring top. 4 types
-Beef and chicken-red label
-wild-green label
-3 types of meat with jelly-brown label
-turkey and duck with jelly-yellow label

At Aldi Nord it's the same but the name is Lux

Price per can 35 cents

Aldi also has the little aluminum dishes 100g at Aldi Süd it is called Cachet- almost all are ok except the raugout with sauce (contains sugar)
Price per dish 25 cents

At Lidl it is called Opticat premium and comes in a 400g can with ring top
There are several varities but ones with raugout and sauce contain sugar. I always buy the poultry (a pate)- black label with yellow stripe
Price 49 cents

Lidl also has Opticat in the 100g dishes-again avoid the sauce ones which have sugar.
Price 25 cents each

The other Lidl/Aldi brands (Tix, Shadu) all are poor quality and contain grains and or sugar.

Aldi Lux catfood (in larger size can 400g)
209009087_74fb52ad95.jpg
 
Since you are seeing a shift in Suzie's numbers, I'd like to suggest that you hold the dose for a couple of more cycles as Monique suggested. I'd also hope you can get a full curve in sometime soon. Right now, we don't have a clear picture when Lantus onset and nadir are. If you could test every 2-hours, that will give you a picture of what's going on. Take another look at the "New to Lantus/Levemir" sticky for information on a curve and take a look at the links on the subject, as well.

Suzie's numbers are definitely improving. I suspect they will continue to improve as you transition her off of the dry food. I likewise agree that raising her dose while changing out the food isn't the best strategy.

You may need to call the manufacturers for "as fed" values if you need them. There is a spreadsheet link in the FAQs on Janet & Binky's list that will put in the calculations. Alternatively, if you have the "as fed" values, you can send them in a note to Janet (of Janet & Binky) and she'll do the calculations.

As far as a catsitter, I have a vet tech from my vet's office who takes care of my guys when I travel.
 
Hi Monique,

Definitely different looking packaging & different names from here. Aldi is known to use local suppliers to reduce transportation costs for some products. Like their water & soft drinks sold in Belgium are produced here, so they might be doing that with the catfood too...

I'm going to have to study the labels and ingredients. I'm hopeful the little square aluminum dishes will be ok (about the sort of amount she can manage to finish in a day anyway, or eat before it loses it's "just opened" smell). Want to be sure before I give her anything that might disturb those yellows & blues we've been getting.

Meanwhile, I have the Gourmet, so no stress in terms of having something soft & appropriate she can eat. Tomorrow is a public holiday here (probably in Germany too) and then things are pretty shut down till Monday...

Is that Spooky posing next to the cans? Cute ! Thank you for the picture !!!

Maria & Suzie
 
Maybe if I don't have to send all my money to Greece :twisted: I could take a Benalux vacation this summer and watch Suzie :lol: If I were in Northern Germany it might be possible, but I am at the South end of the A7 (Flensburg-Füssen) I live on the Austrian border (looking at Neuschwanstein out my window :-D )

No it's not Spooky, just a picture I found (but I liked the black kitty ;-) )

I assume the little dishes (100g) are probably the same. Like I said I buy those too (I feed from the large 400g can mornings and evenings-each cat gets 100g for Breakfast and dinner) So 1 can is good for 1 day for 2 cats cost 49 cents.

At lunchtime I feed 1 aluminum dish (100g) dived between them so 50g each (cost 25 cents) So I spend 74 cents a day to feed the 2 cats.

Which is why I sugessted you might try the Lidl cans 400g because you could feed all the cats with that and it doesn't matter who steals what it would all be low carb and inexpensive.

In most of Europe the numbers on the label are are as close to the "as fed" values as you get. They don't list minimum or maximum it is the average.

To caluculate the carbs you need a formula

Zur To obtain the amount of Carbohydrates (scientifically: an N-free Extract = NfE) in the orginal substance take all the substances listed on the label and subtract them 100%.

100% -protein% -fat% - ashe% - fiber% - water% = NfE%

Example canned food: 100% - 10% - 5,5% - 2,5% - 1,0% - 79% = 2% NfE
Example dry food: 100% - 30% - 10% - 6,5% - 2,5% - 9% = 42% NfE

Often dry food does not list the water amount usually between 8-14% so 10% can be used a safe average

Calculate the amount of dry matter


Canned food: 100% - 79% water = 21% dry matter (DM) = 0,21
Dry food: 100% - 9% water = 91% dry matter (DM) = 0,91

Now calculate the calories from carbohydrates in the dry substance by dividing the total carbohydrates by the dry matter precentage

NfE-canned food: 2% NfE / 0,21 = 9,52% NfE in the dry matter
NfE-dry food: 42% NfE / 0,91 = 46,15% NfE in the dry matter

You can calculate each nutritional value by diving the %ingredient by the DM quotient

protein contained in the dry matter canned food: 10% Protein / 0,21 = 47,62% Protein in dry matter
dry food protein: 30% Protein / 0,91 = 32,97% Protein in dry matter
Click to expand...

So here you see why the dry food is bad it contains 46% carbohydrates and only 33% protein, compared to the canned food which has less than 10% carbs and more protein with 48%.

Hope that helps.
 
The cans I have are made in France by a company called Fidele, so probably different from what you have there.
The square aluminium ones, the 110g ones are made by Tienahrung Deuerer GmbH in Bretten, Germany.

If you are down near Neuschwanstein then I pass you on the way to Austria to go skiing in the winter !

One of my plans for Suzie was to take her with us up to the summer house in Sweden (we drive), but there are pretty much only two countries in Europe that have complicated rules & vaccinations needed about 5 months in advance = UK & Sweden. I figured the drive wouldn't be more or less stressful for her than staying with strangers, but unless she is strong enough for a rabies shots and extensive blood tests & what not, it's a "no go" to Sweden. :cry:

I'm going to have to sit and do some math and study the food here. What % of carbs is still ok? (or just generally as long as it's less than dry food?)

The aim is eventually to find something they all can eat, especially once Suzie has gained back some of the weight lost and I no longer need to watch her so much. But she's still a bit in the mode of being a bit fragile from the weeks of not eating, and she tends to get upset tummies over food changes, so I want to take this transition thing slowly.

Since you are seeing a shift in Suzie's numbers, I'd like to suggest that you hold the dose for a couple of more cycles as Monique suggested. I'd also hope you can get a full curve in sometime soon. Right now, we don't have a clear picture when Lantus onset and nadir are. If you could test every 2-hours, that will give you a picture of what's going on. Take another look at the "New to Lantus/Levemir" sticky for information on a curve and take a look at the links on the subject, as well.

Suzie's numbers are definitely improving. I suspect they will continue to improve as you transition her off of the dry food. I likewise agree that raising her dose while changing out the food isn't the best strategy.

You may need to call the manufacturers for "as fed" values if you need them. There is a spreadsheet link in the FAQs on Janet & Binky's list that will put in the calculations. Alternatively, if you have the "as fed" values, you can send them in a note to Janet (of Janet & Binky) and she'll do the calculations.
Click to expand...
Thanks ! I'll do some homework tonight and look at Janet & Binky's page and do some clculating iwht the local food. I know a testing every 2 hours curve would be ideal, but I don't know how I'll manage it, I almost kill myself the days I manage to do it every 3 hours, trying to combine work and everything, darting upstairs to stab Suzie in the ear inbetween doing other stuff. I'm lucky that she is very co-opertaive (though starting to run under the footstool when she sees me and does her very best to pinch her ears down to avoid the ear-pricking ! :smile:

But thanks to everyone's support, I am sticking to it and you all help give me courage to go on !
 
Generally less than 10% carbs is what you want. Some people try to keep it even under 5% but then it get tough to find foods without having to travel far or seek out special pet stores. Around here there isn't alot of selection (Aldi, Lidl, Schlecker, Norma...the discounters) or 1 supermarket and 1 pet food store which is pricey. The Aldi one I think I calculated once it was about 8% and supposidly the whiskas pouches and perhaps the felix is around 3-5%. Due to Suzie's age and other health issue and being that she is a fussy eater, I would be happy with finding her a nice variety of under 10% carbs canned food that she will eat well.

Here is the website for the company http://www.edel-cat.de/praes.php?Sprache=d&was=katzennahrungdet&wer=2

Alu-Schalen
100 g - 150 g - 200 g - 300 g
Sie können wählen:
> Pastete mit natürlichen oder mit "FMC"-Stücken
> Pastete und Stücke in Gelee (Duo)
> ein- oder zweifarbige Fleischstücke in Sauce
> Premium, Standard oder Economy
> breites Sortenangebot mit oder ohne Gemüse
Click to expand...

I don't like the fact they actually make foods with vegetables :lol: but at least they have some without. I would choose the pastete and avoid the ones with Jelly (contains corn starch as a thickener) or sauce (contains caramel=sugar) best are to look at the ingredients a decent food will have only

Meat, Meat by-products, minerals, water

Avoid ones that have sugar, plant extracts, thickeners, artificial color (usually caramel) grains (getreide) or artificial flavor or preservatives.

For example the Lidl cans I buy say boldly "Ohne konservierungsstoffe, ohne Farbstoff und Aroma" Ingredients are: Fleisch (60%) davon 8% Geflugel, Mineralien, Öl, Wasser, Vitamin A, D, Taurin

The other company I don't find any info. Fidele

Oh yes http://www.groupelegraet.fr/1/21.aspx

Aliments pour chiens et chats

PRODUITS :

* pâtées et morceaux
* terrines
* boulettes en sauce
* émincés en gelée


Not much information though...Just what the types, I would avoid the jelly, and sauce ones. Stick with the Pate!
 
Do you give Suzie treats after you test? Tess lays down and purrs for the test because she knows that she gets a chicken or salmon treat afterwards. Alot of us use single ingredient chicken, salmon, turkey or liver treats. I don't know what is available in Europe. I usually find them with the dog treats, but cats love them too. Single ingredient, so low carb.
 
Hi Maria,

You have a lot on the go in this condo today, so I won't add to the pile. I just wanted to say hello and welcome to lantus land. I agree with the peeps who have suggested that you stick to this dose for now. I also agree that the sooner you have the dry food out, the better off you'll be.

As for vacation, I nearly lost my mind when I first was dealing with Tizon's diabetes. I have found a vet tech as well to look after Tizon when I go away.

And... one last thing, as overwhelming this appears to be now... you will become addicted to testing. If you can find a piece of frozen dry meat as a treat to give to Suzie... she'll look forward to her tests. It's a steep learning curve for you and for Suzie (not to mention the vet..but let's not go there) but you can get through it.

Hang in there, we'll look after you.
 
Thank you Helen,

I have actually printed out the string today so I can sit and read through it later tonight, so you are spot on about "a lot going on". I'm happy to be getting answers to my questions and all this help.

While my vet (new vet) is supportive (and at least this vet managed to diagnose Suzie correctly!), Lantus is not an insuline that has been used for very long or very much for cats over here in Belgium, so I would really be lost without all of you on the FDMB. It's also comforting to know that I can get help almost any time of day, incl weekends !

Not managed to do as much testing today as I would have liked, but Suzie is eating (not sure how much today though, our naughty Daisy managed to mug Suzie in the afternoon and did a "eat and run" before I caught her at it!)

Many vets are one man/woman practices here, but I have found a cat "hotel" over the border into the Netherlands run by a an ex-vet tech, who is experienced with diabetic cats and has even had a few on Lantus staying with her. My vet actually did said she'd take Suzie in (she does not normally take boarders, but as her own cat is diabetic, she was extra sympathetic) and actually have Suzie in her home, but as Murphy's Law will have it, the vet is going on vacation at the same time as I am (and I unfortunately cannot move my vacation as there is a mother-in-law with a booked flight involved...) :roll: .

So the vet tech route is the one I am aiming for, though Suzie will need cat flu shots and such to stay there, and we need to fatten her up a bit first. Hopefully by July things will be stable enough where I can leave her in someone else's hands without having a cardiac over it!

Alright, now time for some dinner for ME (I swear, earlier I almost threw the Fancy Feast into the bolognaise sauce...) and to sit down in the sofa and study labels on catfood!

Thanks !

Maria & Suzie
 
I'm going for dinner now too. No catfood! Were having Kaiserschmarin (you know what that is?) perhaps not hint: it's austrian.

bolognaise I don't do (meat yes tomatoes NO!) quattro fromaggi or carbonara anytime :-D

Guten apitit or as we say in Bavaria (that's NEAR Germany BTW :lol: ) Mahlzeit!
 
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