4/5/2020 New Member - Pyg's dad

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Pyg's Dad

Pyg's Dad

Member Since 2020
Hello,

My boy Pyg, short for Pygmalion, recently started suffering from diabetes. I am trying to get it under control by working with my vet. I am not very happy with the lack of progress. She has me giving him 6 units of Novolin 15 minutes after his meal twice a day. Up until last week his blood glucose was still over 400. He has neuropathy in his hind legs which makes him have a different gait and now he is unable to jump up on most things. I have tried to talk with my vet to no avail. Now that the COVID-19 virus has changed everything, I don't even see her. They come get him in the parking lot and then bring him back to me.

I am looking for any help that I can get. Pyg is a 12-year-old marbled tabby who up until the past month or so, has been extremely active!

HELP!
Pyg's Dad
 
Whew okay! That's a lot. There's a lot of information, I'll try to start brief so as not to overwhelm you.

First off, love Pyg's name haha. Welcome to FDMB! Okay.

Novolin is pretty terrible insulin for cats - better than nothing yes, but you won't find many active members here on it as most of us (including myself) switch off it very quickly. It's very harsh on the body and not suited for a cat's fast metabolism. We recommend Lantus or Prozinc. Lantus is better, we can help you find where to purchase it realistically. I am not sure where you are located but we can tailor our help for you depending on which country you live.

6 units is an obscene amount to start. Most cats will not need more than 3 units without underlying conditions. We would want to start at 0.5 units and go up by 0.25 at a time, since kitties are so small and don't need very much. You're going to have an awful time on 1) Novolin and 2) that high a dose to start. If you are interested in switching we can point you in the right direction but very few cats have success on Novolin.

Are you home testing? Here's the thing: in order to ultimately get your cat into remission (meaning diet-controlled diabetes, no more shots) you need to be home-testing. My vet never mentioned it but now I send her weekly updates on my cat's readings. Glucose curves at the vet only show you where their sugar is going that day...if Pyg is having a bad day, or stressed from the vet visit (which stress does increase blood sugar), your vet may overdose your cat which sounds like they're doing. This is really common, vets don't get a lot of time learning about feline diabetes. Checking blood sugar is going to tell you when it's time to decrease the dose and help prevent ER visits due to hypoglycemia. We use human glucometers. They're super cheap, Walmart carries them for $9. Test strips are $18 for 100. If you are home testing you will be in control of the diabetes and get to minimize vet visits, and eliminate unnecessary ones.

What food are you feeding Pyg? Again we can tailor the food choices to your country, but in the US we use Fancy Feast Classics or Friskies Pate. There are other options, you're not limited to these two, but they are good quality and AFFORDABLE. They are very low-carb, a diabetic needs under 10%, ideally less than 5%.

Diabetic neuropathy is common and does take a while to reverse. Getting the blood sugar levels under control will cure neuropathy, and in many cases adding a Methyl B12 supplement will aid in the recovery. There are many people here who can direct you to where to get this if needed, as I personally don't have experience with it.

Please let me know if you'd like clarifications on anything, this should get you started. :)

Edit: OH and before I forget. Novolin, give food a half hour BEFORE insulin. The food needs to already be in the system since it hits hard and fast. I also recommend feeding an hour after the shot to slow the drop. We feed multiple times a day for our kitties, it's much easier on the pancreas.
 
I agree with Elizabeth. The American Animal Hospital Assn does not recommend Novolin for feline diabetes. Prozinc and Lantus are the two insulins that are recommended and have been recommended for several years. This is the link to the guidelines. You may want to send it to your vet along with the request that she switch your cat to an insulin that's appropriate for your kitty.
 
First of all, thanks for the quick replies!

I have not done any home testing. I actually did not know about it until the last week. I am willing to do it if it will help him! I just don't want to hurt him!

So, Mr. Pyg will not eat a soft food only diet. He will eat two bites and leave the rest. So, because of this we have him on Hills w/d dry food. He gets just under a half a cup twice a day. He has always loved his dry food. Is it possible to get his diabetes under control with a dry food diet?

My vet should be able to change the insulin that he has prescribed, correct? I am planning on sending an e-mail to them because I haven't been able to even get them on the phone.

Anything else I should mention to them?

Thank you so much!
 
Hello and welcome to FDMB
Dry food is packed with carbs. I had a kitty that lived on dry before he came to me. It took time because he was an addict but we finally got him off it. Once the dry was gone his numbers dropped substantially. So testing at home is a MUST.
Please heed the words of the experts here. and DONT remove that dry without home testing. It could drive Pyg's numbers dangerously low.

Pyg is lucky to have you because you think enough of him to come here. Theres a wealth of information here aNd people to help you digest it. WELCOME

jeanne
 
Home testing is easy and painless! There's a learning curve as both you and Pyg will have to get used to it, don't be frustrated if it takes you a few days to get the hang of it. You can start by rubbing Pyg's ears and giving him a treat (cheese or unseasoned meat make great rewards) and then move on to most comfortable position. You'll be pricking the ear. For most cats "less is more" when it comes to restraint, but some cats do need to be "burrito'd" to get them to hold still. You'll figure out what works best for you. :)

Here is the link for home-testing information. There's various resources but just pick one or two to use for reference.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/

Because he is on insulin, it's better that he eats something than snubbing his nose at nothing, but you would want to train him to eat the wet food. You can do this by using the dry food (or diabetic friendly treats) as a topper and/or mix it in with the wet to transition him. I know it's hard, there's a lot of stubborn kitties that would just as soon starve than eat wet, but they do learn. There is Young Again and Dr. Elsey's dry food, they are the only two low enough in carbs if you would like to use them, but they are expensive. Do what you can, it's more important that he eats something. He would do better with multiple meals as well rather than only two meals a day. Lots of us use an automatic feeder (Petsafe 5 is a popular choice, you can find it used on Ebay if you prefer) so we don't have to physically be there for every meal. You'll also want to be testing already when you switch to a lower-carb food as low-carb food can make blood sugar drop significantly.

Yes, your vet should be able to write you a new prescription. Prozinc users usually buy from chewy.com, Lantus users often use Marks' Marine Pharmacy. You can also head over to the Supply Closet forum here and there are usually members selling extra pens of Lantus for cheap, no prescription needed. That's not to say you should use it as a work-around from your vet, but it is an option.

IF your vet poo-poo's the information you send, don't take it personally. Some of us have switched vets, others have educated their vets, and a few good ones embrace it. You are doing a great job looking out for Pyg!
 
Pyg's Dad said:
Mr. Pyg will not eat a soft food only diet.
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Keep trying...the extra water kitties get from eating canned food is very beneficial to their kidneys. Try different textures too. Weruva, TikiCat, BFF are just a few brands of foods I know of that offer low carb foods in different textures...pate, chunks, shreds, etc. It really is worth the work to get him on a species appropriate diet and off the kibble....not only for his diabetes but for his general health. Here are some Tips on Transitioning that may help .

Here's a food chart that shows the nutritional breakdown of a lot of commonly found canned foods too. You want to keep it under 10% carbs. (By the way, the W/D kibble is over 40% carbs...it also contains an ingredient they laughingly call "powdered cellulose"....that's a fancy word for sawdust)

Get some FortiFlora....it's a powder that comes in little packets....just a little sprinkle will get most cats to eat! It's the same stuff they spray on kibble to make it so irresistible to cats. It's available at Chewy, Amazon and lots of other online stores with pet supplies. My China loved it so much I think she would have eaten a pile of rocks as long as they were sprinkled with FF.
 
Panic said:
Novolin, give food a half hour BEFORE insulin. The food needs to already be in the system since it hits hard and fast.
Click to expand...
That should be 1 hour before you give the insulin.
"It's a good idea to feed your cat an hour before giving insulin. This is to ensure there is food in the cat’s system for when the insulin starts to work, and to help ensure that the BG doesn’t drop too fast or too low. Not all cats will experience a fast BG drop with N/NPH, but until your testing data shows otherwise, it is wise to assume that this may be the case with your cat.

The sequence should be: 1. Test BG. 2. Feed. 3. Wait for an hour. 4. Give the shot."

Have you seen our Sticky Beginner's Guide To Novolin/Humulin/NPH?
What I quoted above, is from there.

From our Caninsulin / Vetsulin and N / NPH forum. But please, continue to post here in the Feline Health forum. Not many people to help you in that insulin specific forum right now.
 
Well, my vet told me that Lantus and Prozinc shouldn't be used with Pyg because his blood glucose levels are too high. They also don't recommend home testing because the numbers don't match with what they get at the vet's office. I am losing faith in my vet. It definitely was not up for discussion either.

I want everyone to know that this doesn't mean I am not going to do what you all have suggested! I want to do what is best for Pyg!
 
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Does Pyg have ketones?
Did he have ketones, or DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis)?

That can be one reason for using Caninsulin/Vetsulin. Or the NPH insulins.
If you cat was hospitalized for DKA or ketones. Or HL (hepatic lipidosis).

Ok, you are in the US. Go to any pharmacy and buy a human glucometer. We'll help you with what the BG (blood glucose ) readings mean on a human meter. Most people here use human meters. Many cat's BG levels will be much higher at the vet office, because they are stressed. I'll link a study for you if you want, to see what stress does to a cat's blood glucose levels.

Check your local Walmart, and see if they have any of the Relion meters and matching test strips in stock. Order it, go pick it up. They have curbside pickup now. Get that meter ASAP. Go to any pharmacy, Walgreens, CVS, what ever is near and get a human meter with matching test strips. You may have to call first, to see what they have in stock.

Your vet is full of you know what in regards to the Prozinc and Lantus insulin.
Your vet is also "full of it" as far as home testing goes.

Please, let us help you. Please.
 
Sounds like you might need to find a different vet....one that's willing to work with you instead of dictate to you.

A lot of us had to change vets to find one who knew more about treating, or were at least willing to be open-minded when we suggested things we'd learned.

Then there are those of us that gave up on vets once we got a script for the insulin we wanted. (I was one of these). Once I got a script for Lantus and filled it at Marks Marine Pharmacy in Canada, I chose to listen to the people here when it came to China's diabetes. I decided to listen to the "non-professionals" who had 24/7/365 experience over a vet that may have gotten a few hours of book-learning back when he was in school.
 
Please know there ARE Vets out there who WILL work WITH you. Mine did and was thrilled I found this site. She even comes here. Shes not the type to post on threads but she came here to make sure the info was good and agreed. It might be difficult these days due to all the restrictions but thats where we can fill in the blanks! LET US help you. :bighug:
 
Your vet needs to be handed a copy of the 2018 AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats with the part where PROZINC or LANTUS are recommended for treating CATS highlighted. Honestly. I'm all for vets not knowing but willing to learn but that attitude is destructive to their patients.

I am not one to imply using the Supply Closet as a work-around to getting insulin without a script but ... that is an option. ;)
 
Sad as this sounds the supply closet was the only way I was able to get a different insulin for Teal'c. He didn't get very many good numbers on Prozinc. I talked to my vet about Lantus and he poopood the idea of switching to Lantus. Said Prozinc was it and that he was so excited to have Prozinc back, and its not that Prozinc is a bad insulin its just that Teal'c didn't do much with it. I talked to another vet in town about his treatment for Feline Diabetes and he uses Vetsulin and another one that started with an H. He explained to me that cats don't do well on long acting insulin which I knew was so wrong so I knew I had to take matter into my own hands. The only recourse I had was to use the supply closet. Teal'c, while not regulated, does see better numbers on Lantus less of the high swings to the 400's and 500's, more of a flat 300's run now but working on bringing that down. So as a last recourse that is an option.
 
Patty & Teal'c said:
Sad as this sounds the supply closet was the only way I was able to get a different insulin for Teal'c. He didn't get very many good numbers on Prozinc. I talked to my vet about Lantus and he poopood the idea of switching to Lantus. Said Prozinc was it and that he was so excited to have Prozinc back, and its not that Prozinc is a bad insulin its just that Teal'c didn't do much with it. I talked to another vet in town about his treatment for Feline Diabetes and he uses Vetsulin and another one that started with an H. He explained to me that cats don't do well on long acting insulin which I knew was so wrong so I knew I had to take matter into my own hands. The only recourse I had was to use the supply closet. Teal'c, while not regulated, does see better numbers on Lantus less of the high swings to the 400's and 500's, more of a flat 300's run now but working on bringing that down. So as a last recourse that is an option.
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Wow maybe you can share your success with your vet? I mean if they truly into helping your kitty surely he will see the difference.???
Just thinkin out loud here.
good luck!
j
 
That is my plan once I get him into better numbers. I only bought 2 pens. Keep track of his BG and am hoping that once I have good numbers (lower then 300) I can show him and get a script for Lantus rather then doing it this way.
 
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