4/4 Smokey PMPS 497;+1.5 581 newbie

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Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Hey kim so glad you were able to test today!! And so happy that your vet switched to lantus!! There are a lot of experienced members here that will help you thru this!
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Jamie7489 said:
Hey kim so glad you were able to test today!! And so happy that your vet switched to lantus!! There are a lot of experienced members here that will help you thru this!


And thank you so much for your help yesterday.. The rice sock and the lancing device helped SO MUCH.

Now, I'm just worried I gave to much Lantus to start off with. Watching him closely. I am just wondering...

Should I give him food? He's hungry.. and it wouldn't that help to keep his numbers from dropping too low?
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Welcome to LantusLand, the greatest place you never wanted to be! :lol: :lol: You are in the right place to get the best possible care for Smokey. The first thing to do is set up a spreadsheet and here are the instructions.

Could you also change the subject line of the very first post to
4/4 Smokey PMPS 497;+1.5 581 newbie

You are doing a great job getting tests. That's very important to keep Smokey safe. Please ask any questions that you have. The knowledge and generosity here are amazing and people are anxious to help you.
Liz
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

How much does Smokey weigh? What would be an ideal weight? When was his first shot? What do you feed him?
Liz
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Anne & Zener said:
How much does Smokey weigh? What would be an ideal weight? When was his first shot? What do you feed him?
Liz

Hi..

Smokey's weight Monday was 15.4. I'm not sure what his ideal would be. He's been overweight as long as I can remember. Just had a huge weight drop before he was DX.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Anne & Zener said:
How much does Smokey weigh? What would be an ideal weight? When was his first shot? What do you feed him?
Liz

He had his shot at 6pm it is now 840.

He's a dry food/treat addict, and I'm having a very hard time getting him to eat the canned food. He's gotta eat, so he's been getting Royal Canin Diabetic Dry. I know it's not the best, but I'm trying to get him switched. He wasn't eating and if he did he was vomiting a week and a half ago. We crossed that hurdle, at least now he's eating. At dinner time, he ate a little less than a half a cup of food.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

But I was just wondering, since he is hungry now, can I feed him or should I hold off, and if so, until when? He ate less than a half cup at dinner at 6.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

TheBowHuntress said:
Gobbles & I wanted to stop in and say meow dancing_cat

I'll be sure to let smokey know. He's about to start watching the Red Wings game with his grandma in a few minutes! :RAHCAT
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

We had the same problem with getting Zener to switch to wet food. It took about a year before he would eat wet food readily. It seemed like forever. :roll: Dr. Lisa Pierson has some suggestions for making the transition to wet food. Zener loves fortiflora, which you can get from the vet or from amazon (much cheaper). Our other cat, Tillie, likes Parmesan cheese and originally hated fortiflora and now she likes it too. :lol:
Liz
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

It's fine to feed except 2 hours prior to shot time. It's also best to not feed after nadir.

FYI -- the Royal Canin DD is 38% carb. That's astronomically high in carbs and likely what is driving your cat's numbers up so high. (This is like you're sitting down and eating a pound of cookie dough plus a hot fudge sundae.)
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Kim

Now in the morning what dose are you going to give Smokie?

Terri
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Sienne and Gabby said:
It's fine to feed except 2 hours prior to shot time. It's also best to not feed after nadir.

FYI -- the Royal Canin DD is 38% carb. That's astronomically high in carbs and likely what is driving your cat's numbers up so high. (This is like you're sitting down and eating a pound of cookie dough plus a hot fudge sundae.)

Do you have any suggestions on a lower carb dry food? He's SO PICKY!! I tried the parm cheese today, turned his nose up at it. I'll have to get some fortiflora, but I don't know if that will work either. He's a cat who won't eat cheese or cooked white meat chicken! lol

Just for those of you who don't know... I'm staying with my parents and I am unemployed atm. So, everything has been a constant battle with my mom. She listens to my vet, who uses NPH and feeds the diabetic dry to ALL her patients and they SUPPOSEDLY do well on it. So mom listens to the vet (and why wouldn't she! It's a VET!) And I tend to do research and know that canned low carb food is the way to go, along with Lantus or PZ, and home testing. So, the whole ordeal over the testing, insulin, food, turns into an arguement. Like I'm not stressed enough!

I've told her to go online and do research for herself, so it's not coming from me, but I have yet to really see her spend the hours online like I have. And I'm fine with being the one doing this, I'd actually prefer it. Too many chickens in the coupe I guess...
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Have you tried freeze dried chicken? You can get the dog version. If he likes that, you can sprinkle some of the dust on some wet food to entice him to eat. You can also start with mediums carb wet food to get him to eat it. Here is Dr. Lisa's list of canned foods with nutritional content. "Low carb" is less than 10%, medium carb is 10 to 15%, and high carb is above 15%. Make a list of some foods to try and get a couple of cans. Even today, Zener won't eat low carb food so we give him medium carb. It's less than ideal but a whole lot better than dry food.
Liz
ETA: I think Dr. Lisa evaluates dry food too but they are all high carb. Plus they are dry, which is bad for all cats and especially bad for diabetic cats. They need more water in their food for their kidneys to work well. Smokey, eat that canned food!

For your mom, could you find a different vet that is more on board with feeding a better diet? Or have mom post here? Vets are amazing with treating so many different animals and different diseases but they don't know feline diabetes like the folks here.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

UPDATE

PMPS 497
Gave 2.5U Lantus
+1.5 581
+3.25 373

So far not too low.. fingers crossed..
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Glad you've got the Latus crew watching the numbers.
Looking good so far.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

BJM said:
Glad you've got the Latus crew watching the numbers.
Looking good so far.


Thanks BJM..

Unless something happens and I start seeing hypo symptoms, do you think I'd be ok to wait +2 to give another check? He ate about a 1/4 c of food 20 min ago..
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Anne & Zener said:
Have you tried freeze dried chicken? You can get the dog version. If he likes that, you can sprinkle some of the dust on some wet food to entice him to eat. You can also start with mediums carb wet food to get him to eat it. Here is Dr. Lisa's list of canned foods with nutritional content. "Low carb" is less than 10%, medium carb is 10 to 15%, and high carb is above 15%. Make a list of some foods to try and get a couple of cans. Even today, Zener won't eat low carb food so we give him medium carb. It's less than ideal but a whole lot better than dry food.
Liz
ETA: I think Dr. Lisa evaluates dry food too but they are all high carb. Plus they are dry, which is bad for all cats and especially bad for diabetic cats. They need more water in their food for their kidneys to work well. Smokey, eat that canned food!

For your mom, could you find a different vet that is more on board with feeding a better diet? Or have mom post here? Vets are amazing with treating so many different animals and different diseases but they don't know feline diabetes like the folks here.

Hi Anne...

I know, if were only as easy as telling him, "this is what is good for you and you'll feel SO much better!" I'm going to keep trying though!

As for my mom, she's in her 60's and set in her ways as she should be. I have introduced her to the board, and shown her a few things on it. I am going to start calling around and talking to different vets. It's just difficult right now, with my financial situation. I am confident that as long as I keep up to date on info, and I am the one who is home all day everyday feeding/testing/giving insulin, hopefully as long as his body cooperates we can get him regulated and maybe in remission if I can get him to eat the right food!
As for the freeze dried chicken treats, I'm going to try to get to petsmart this weekend. Dealing with one car operating atm. By the middle of the month, I should have my car fixed and we'll be back to two cars. My dad works full time and usually has the transportation.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Kim

He should be alright for you to get another +2 check on, just come back on and post his numbers so everyone can see.

Terri
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

This is about the time you might see the Lantus kicking in; maybe split the difference at 1.5 hours (+5 maybe). He's high enough now that he'll probably be OK if he doesn't vomit.



Note: if needed, naps work best if taken in multiples of 45 minutes (45 min, 1.5 hr 2.25 hr, etc). This about the length of a sleep cycle and makes it easier to wake if needed. Trying to wake in the middle of a sleep cycle may be difficult.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

terri1962 said:
Kim

Now in the morning what dose are you going to give Smokie?

Terri

Depends on his #'s. What is recommended? Let's say I test him at +5.5 (which will be less than 2 hours from now) and he's not under 200.. do you think 1.75 would be ok since these #'s are after 2.5U?
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Well, when switching, 75% of 3 units of N would be 2.25 units of Lantus to start.

Lantus is partially cummulative in its effects, so successive doses build on each other.

Maybe 2 units, if the others agree.

Normally, dose adjustments are based on the nadir after holding at the same dose for 10 shot cycles on the first dose and 6 shot cycles for later adjustments.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Smokey & Kim said:
terri1962 said:
Kim

Now in the morning what dose are you going to give Smokie?

Terri

Depends on his #'s. What is recommended? Let's say I test him at +5.5 (which will be less than 2 hours from now) and he's not under 200.. do you think 1.75 would be ok since these #'s are after 2.5U?

And as I'm typing this, I'm being told "You're not testing him again tonight!!! You're going to make his ears sore!!"
grr_red

God give me strength...
I'll sneak him downstairs at test time...
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Kim

Lantus is a an insulin that you have to keep the dose the same. Its not like NPH. If you give 1.5 in the morning you must give 1.5 in the evening. This insulin needs to build up in the body to work. So I would give 1.5 units in the morning unless somehere advises otherwise, They know more about this insulin than anyone. If he under 200 in the morning DO not give any insulin at all.
Please see what they say here, I would not give 2.5 units. That is to much to start.

Terri
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

BJM said:
Well, when switching, 75% of 3 units of N would be 2.25 units of Lantus to start.

Lantus is partially cummulative in its effects, so successive doses build on each other.

Maybe 2 units, if the others agree.

Normally, dose adjustments are based on the nadir after holding at the same dose for 10 shot cycles on the first dose and 6 shot cycles for later adjustments.

Thanks BJM... I am going to take an hour break and catch a quick TV show. I will check back around the next test time. Mom needs to destress a little...
 
Since you just started Lantus tonight, even if he doesn't drop too low tonight, you could still be giving him too much insulin and won't really know until the depot fills up (takes about 6 cycles/3 day).

My suggestion would be to decide whether you want to "Start low; go slow" as MommaofMuse recommended with 1u or start based on weight at 1.5u.
 
Re: Newbie gave Lantus 2.5U

Smokey & Kim said:
And as I'm typing this, I'm being told "You're not testing him again tonight!!! You're going to make his ears sore!!"
grr_red

God give me strength...
I'll sneak him downstairs at test time...

Tell them that if the alternative is a potentially very sick cat, you're going to test!
 
Also, ignore your Mom. I'd rather have Mikey pissed at me with sore ears than in hypo any day of the week! :lol:

ETA: and BJM beats me to the punch again! ;-)
 
I felt the same way as your mom, when we started testing Zener. Then I thought about the alternatives. One is hypo, as was already mentioned. The other is the long-term damage done to internal organs due to high blood sugar. Compared to that, a few ear pokes is not a big deal. One thing that helps is to apply pressure for about 20 seconds after the poke. You can also apply some neosporin ointment with pain relief. That will help the pain and the healing. And be sure to give a treat after each poke! Freeze dried chicken is good for that. Or something else low carb. :-D You're doing a great job, Kim! This is overwhelming at first, but you will pick up more and more as you go along.
Liz
 
Quick update from my phone..

+5 471

Not loving the hi numbers, but no hypo in sight. Ill check once more at +6 or 7 and post after. If #s r ok then, hopeful we can both get some rest. And of course only if everything is ok..

Be back in about an hour or so. Thank u all so much!
 
Quick update from my phone..

+4.25 471
NOT +5

Not loving the hi numbers, but no hypo in sight. Ill check once more at +6 or 7 and post after. If #s r ok then, hopeful we can both get some rest. And of course only if everything is ok..

Be back in about an hour or so. Thank u all so much!
 
Yeah, I think you're good for the night.

While you work on transistioning to wet food, improving the dry food to a lower carb dry food such as Wellness Core, Evo Cat & Kitten, or the Young Again 0 Carb will get the calories from carbs down and possibly improve the glucose some..
 
Kim --

You need to decide on a dose and stick with it. You're giving a large dose of insulin. You're also feeding a very high carb food. If you switch Smokey to canned food, you're going to need to reduce the dose. It takes 5 - 7 days to establish the insulin depot (not 3 days). Please take a look at the sticky note pertaining to the depot and how it works.

Please get Smokey's spreadsheet set up. Without it, we are working blind and it will be very difficult to provide you with any useful guidance. Having a spreadsheet will also allow you to see your kitty's progress.

As for your mom, the question I would pose to her is what would she do if this were her grandchild? Would she want you to give insulin, a potentially lethal drug if misused, without the benefit of testing? Would she feed her diabetic grandchild cookies? I suspect she would say "No, of course not." Humans are expected to test their blood glucose levels and adjust their insulin dose accordingly. You're Smokey's caregiver and since your kitty doesn't have thumbs, it's up to you to do the testing and shooting.
 
Sienne and Gabby said:
Kim --

You need to decide on a dose and stick with it. You're giving a large dose of insulin. You're also feeding a very high carb food. If you switch Smokey to canned food, you're going to need to reduce the dose. It takes 5 - 7 days to establish the insulin depot (not 3 days). Please take a look at the sticky note pertaining to the depot and how it works.

Please get Smokey's spreadsheet set up. Without it, we are working blind and it will be very difficult to provide you with any useful guidance. Having a spreadsheet will also allow you to see your kitty's progress.

As for your mom, the question I would pose to her is what would she do if this were her grandchild? Would she want you to give insulin, a potentially lethal drug if misused, without the benefit of testing? Would she feed her diabetic grandchild cookies? I suspect she would say "No, of course not." Humans are expected to test their blood glucose levels and adjust their insulin dose accordingly. You're Smokeys caregiver and since your kitty doesn't have thumbs, it's up to you to do the testing and
shooting.
Today was the first day I've been able to get blood. So whats been posted so far tonight are all the numbers I have. Once i have time and not busy stressing out and checking on Smokey every hour, I plan on making a spreadsheet and profile for Smokey. Doing the best I can tonight without losing my mind..lol.

I really really appreciate all the help tonight guy, so thanks again.. If everything is ok at +6/+7 i won't be back til tomorrow. I suffer from anxiety as it is, so after that scare, im whooped.
Tomorrow for the AM shot ill most likely do 1.75, as long as he's not low in the morning. I don't expect that though. If I'm not back tonight, have a good one guys & gals!
 
Sienne and Gabby said:
Kim --

You need to decide on a dose and stick with it. You're giving a large dose of insulin. You're also feeding a very high carb food. If you switch Smokey to canned food, you're going to need to reduce the dose. It takes 5 - 7 days to establish the insulin depot (not 3 days). Please take a look at the sticky note pertaining to the depot and how it works.

Please get Smokey's spreadsheet set up. Without it, we are working blind and it will be very difficult to provide you with any useful guidance. Having a spreadsheet will also allow you to see your kitty's progress.

As for your mom, the question I would pose to her is what would she do if this were her grandchild? Would she want you to give insulin, a potentially lethal drug if misused, without the benefit of testing? Would she feed her diabetic grandchild cookies? I suspect she would say "No, of course not." Humans are expected to test their blood glucose levels and adjust their insulin dose accordingly. You're Smokeys caregiver and since your kitty doesn't have thumbs, it's up to you to do the testing and
shooting.
Today was the first day I've been able to get blood. So whats been posted so far tonight are all the numbers I have. Once i have time and not busy stressing out and checking on Smokey every hour, I plan on making a spreadsheet and profile for Smokey. Doing the best I can tonight without losing my mind..lol.

I really really appreciate all the help tonight guy, so thanks again.. If everything is ok at +6/+7 i won't be back til tomorrow. I suffer from anxiety as it is, so after that scare, im whooped.
Tomorrow for the AM shot ill most likely do 1.75, as long as he's not low in the morning. I don't expect that though. If I'm not back tonight, have a good one guys & gals!
 
Great job with testing! It's hard to figure it out and stressful. What gauge lancet are you using? Bigger numbers are smaller and harder to get blood. It's usually better to start with a bigger one and move to a smaller one when you get a bit better.
Liz
ETA: We use a 28 gauge lancet.
 
Hi Kim! Welcome to Lantus Land! I look forward to getting to know you and Smokey :) You'll find that the members here are some of the most supportive, compassionate, and generous people you'd ever want to meet.
 
Kim

Welcome to Lantus Land! I've just read through your health condo and the posts today.

Well, when switching, 75% of 3 units of N would be 2.25 units of Lantus to start.

Since he wasn't on NPH that long, then the starting dose of lantus is not 75% of the NPH dose. In fact, we only use a 70% figure when switching from levemir....not the other insulins.

Is he underweight at his current weight or does he look perfect? I understand he's lost about 5 lbs.

Most of us here follow a tight regulation protocol. It is the only protocol for cats that is based on scientific research and which has been published in a scientific journal. The highest rates of remission result from use of this protocol. However, a requisite of using this protocol is that the kitty be on a low carb canned or raw food....no dry at all.

The other approach is Start Low Go Slow. Doses are held longer. The starting dose is generally 1-2u depending on how high the cats BG is. You can post here even if you follow SLGS because there are many others that do and this is the most active forum so there's usually someone around to help.

Also...we do not have a no shoot number in this forum. If you get 150 or any time you get what would be your lowest nu bet to shoot, we ask that you DO NOT FEED but stall and post here asking for help (in the subject line).

If you will send me a private message (click on the PM button to the right under my Gracies avatar) I will do your SS and profile for you.

Please let us know your questions. We are here to help.
 
Good morning FDMB!

I started a new thread with todays numbers. I only have a few minutes for right now, but I will be back on this afternoon. I am going to try to get Smokeys SS set up then.

If you have time, please look over my new thread. Smokey's numbers are still hi, and he won't eat anything but the diabetic dry... :?

I'm totally open to feedback on what to do...

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=92600

Thanks everybody!
 
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