4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Back Up

[Barn Cats R Us]

Hi All,

Sorry to ask questions without having an active SS, but it's terribly out-of-date, and I won't have time to update it in the near future. I don't think the SS is needed for this question anyway...if it is...there's nothing I can do about it right now.

Does anyone have any experience with working down to mini/micro doses, finally seeing some pancreas action, and then winding back-up in the range of 1.0u doses?

I think I have her all screwed up since I've been dealing with a possible cancer kitty...big white Bubba...who's hugging Marilyn in my avatar. Bubba's probable cancer dx was like having my heart ripped out with words...I couldn't catch my breath. I've been force feeding him for awhile now. I'll probably get him a chest x-ray, although, I don't know what good it will do. Marilyn, who in the past NEVER let me know she was in low numbers and hungry (that's always been a problem with her), now calls me in her soft tiny voice, like, "What the heck?...You haven't taken my BG in 4-HOURS!...What's gotten into you woman?".

Anyway, I've totally screwed her up. Any input/experience regarding working down to mini/micro doses, then first sign of pancreas action, then back-up the dosing scale, will be greatly appreciated.

Edit to Add (it took a few attempts):
2007 Photo of Marilyn & Bubba on a box left on their couch for a moment too long.

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Hi Deb,
Glad to see you post. I am very sad to hear the news about Bubba. What type of cancer, or did they go that far with the diagnosis?

I have no first-hand experience with mini-doses. The smallest dose I ever shot was .25, and that was just before Bob went OTJ. I also have very little experience with mid-cycle testing, which I didn't do enough of out of ignorance. Most of what I know, or believe I know, I've learned from watching kitties and beans here. So, now that I've pretty much disqualified myself from giving you advice on mini/micro dosing, I sure as hell will give it a shot.

A couple of questions, and I know the SS is out of date, but it is what it is, so no matter. I know you know the numbers, just don't have them on your SS so just give me some "ballparks"...

When you were down to tiny doses, what sort of numbers was Marilyn giving you? Are we talking blues and greens, mostly greens? And what sort of action were you seeing on the tiny doses? How tiny?

Did you go a few days or cycles with no insulin? Was her pancreas holding its own? Did you ever do that "feed, test an hour later for a rise, then a couple hours later to see if she was dropping on her own" thing?

Now that you are back up to 1u, what is that doing in general? Does the curve look okay, or is she diving and bouncing, then flat, then wonky? Anything consistent or is she just all over the place?

I know that there are people here who dealt with this sort of thing. I know Lisa and Cassie (bookworm) was doing tiny doses. She also tried TID. But Cass went back to needing more insulin. He's doing better lately, but Lisa has had struggles with him. I'm going to look at a few other SS because I know this isn't a unique thing, just not sure who, or if they are still active on the board.

Carl

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Hi Carl,

I am very sad to hear the news about Bubba. What type of cancer, or did they go that far with the diagnosis?

Thanks. She thinks lung. Elevated carbon dioxide. Ultrasound shows no fluid around lungs or chest. Chest x-ray would be next step. We'll see.

Did you go a few days or cycles with no insulin? Was her pancreas holding its own?

No, not very long...I wrote the quote below in one of your posts...so her system was clear of all insulin therapy at the 82 BG.

She went 39-hours without R, 23-hours without ProZinc, and 14-hours without N, and handed me a BG reading of 82.

I'll be back to answer the rest of your questions. I have to go force feed The Bubba.

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Continued...

A couple of questions, and I know the SS is out of date, but it is what it is, so no matter.

Just to explain...I was alternating different insulins, depending on her numbers, 3 to 5 times daily, for weeks. Tracking duration and overlap...but all on her handwritten "daily chart". In the past, even when I didn't have her Google Docs SS up-to-date, I always had her Excel SS updated (my Holy Grail). Not anymore. It’s an insane juggling act, and the SS is no longer an easy format that can handle it all. I don't know how to begin to get it all on a SS...I mean...I know it's possible...but there’s just too much going on here, with too little time. So I apologize for the "lack of SS". It's why I was apprehensive to post at all.

Did you ever do that "feed, test an hour later for a rise, then a couple hours later to see if she was dropping on her own" thing?

Yep, and as feared, the pancreas couldn't hold its' own after food. I pretty much expected that; but I also expected to "keep at it" around the clock. Unfortunately, the Bubba news took the wind out of my sails, and I didn't stay on top of Marilyn's situation. I tried to stay on top of it, but the whole "needing more insulin" was throwing me off. So I was lost for a while.

When you were down to tiny doses, what sort of numbers was Marilyn giving you? Are we talking blues and greens, mostly greens? And what sort of action were you seeing on the tiny doses? How tiny?

Yes, on the blues and greens. Mostly greens? I dunno, it’s hard to say without a "purrty" SS to view. Looking at the clipboard (my living hell), I see many strings of "blues and greens" (although they're all written in red ink). Her doses weren't that tiny, but that's where she was heading...I thought. She was at 0.2u PZ, or 0.25u N, and ready for decrease (again, I thought she was)...when the pancreas kicked in. Then the pancreas promptly checked out. I couldn't find a good dose after that, since I kept aiming low, but apparently she needed more again. “More”, I wasn’t expecting, so that’s why I posted. I realize this is difficult, and not an ideal situation without a SS, but I thought if I stuck to the basics (down the ladder, pancreas action, back up the ladder), someone might have a similar experience to share...and possibly a happy outcome.

Now that you are back up to 1u, what is that doing in general? Does the curve look okay, or is she diving and bouncing, then flat, then wonky? Anything consistent or is she just all over the place?

Curve you say? :shock: Thanks, that's the first time I've laughed in days. I know you didn't mean to make me laugh...buy ya did...so thanks. So here's where I may be insane...juggling 3 insulins, and shooting anywhere from 3 to 5 times daily, doesn’t leave much room for a curve. When ugly numbers reared their heads, I zapped them with N or R (depending on the situation), and sent them packing. My goal was to keep her in blue, preferably green, at all times. I didn’t want a curve; still don’t (is that "wrong"?). Since "pancreas action", she's been all over the place; mostly high. I'm just starting to get things under control, however, it took the "higher" doses to get there, and it took me a while to figure out that her most recent messed up numbers were from too little, not too much insulin, as previously. Bummer.

Straightforward examples I can quickly/easily pull off the clipboard:
3/25/12: 0.6u PZ x 3 (Total: 1.8u) = Blues & Greens for 24 hours straight
4/03/12: 39-hrs without R, 23-hrs without PZ, and 14-hrs without N = 82 BG
4/10/12: 0.8u PZ + 0.75u N + 0.4u PZ + 0.75u N (Total: 1.2u PZ + 1.5u N = 2.7u) = She's trying to stay in blues; hasn't been green since 4/3

Anyway, don't knock yourself out looking at too many spreadsheets. I suppose it is, what it is...but I was hoping someone had a similar story...with an encouraging outcome. I guess an encouraging outcome is what I really needed.

Thanks Carl,

Deb

 

[Rob & Harley (GA)]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Hi Deb,

I've had experience with shooting micro doses, I did it with Harley for quite a while.

I havn't posted to you much since you really seemed to have things under control and I don't really understand how the different insulins work together so I kept quiet, I've only used Prozinc.

An appology, my old brain can't keep the numbers straight in my head without looking at a ss, I know you have your hands full and can't keep it up but if you could post the numbers from the last few days here maybe I can help.

Robin

 

[Squeaky and KT (GA)]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Deb - BIG HUGE LOOOOOOONG HUG! I'm so sorry you got hit with that dx for Bubba - that does knock your socks off for a while, it did mine. Don't beat yourself up over Marilyn's situation - there's only so much one human can do, only so much one brain can hold and so much one heart can take. Love YOURSELF too - give yourself little special things, allow yourself to break a personal rule to relax a few extra minutes, leave those dishes for a bit, fix a simple meal instead of the 'good' one...

Lots of extra thoughts and prayers from our house....

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Hi All...I am still mostly interested in the immediate need for more insulin, after going down the dosing ladder, far enough to witness some pancreas action. This just seems "wrong" to me. Judging from the lack of response...it appears no one has ever experienced this...so maybe it is "wrong". Would it be better to post this in Health?

Robin: Thanks for checking in. I must tell you...I almost spit my V-Fusion Smoothie across my desk when I read that you thought I really seem to have things under control. :lol: I would read that out loud to the kittehs, to boost their confidence in me, but I'm pretty sure they would all look like this...:shock:...and then ask for directions to the nearest shelter.

Again, I realize the importance of the SS, but I just can't think about it right now. Maybe I can get some of her numbers together after taxes...which I haven't started yet. I've spent the whole day taking care of "Bubba stuff". It seems he may be in deep trouble if I can't afford to have his lower left lobe removed...but I'm getting way ahead of myself. I'll see where we are in a week, or so, and if I'm still lost, I'll see about gathering some of her data. If I can only stop my brain from spinning, and concentrate solely on Marilyn, the Humulin will eventually point me in the right direction. I'm surprised it hasn't already...I'm just not giving it "my all" right now. With Marilyn, Humulin is like the truth serum of BG numbers...you rarely have to guess which direction you’re heading with dosing...at least not until you're at smaller doses. Used correctly, in conjunction with ProZinc, it takes most of her bouncing nonsense out of the picture. It also forces ProZinc to reveal its' hand, when it comes to flatness. At least that's how it was working for Marilyn before the brief pancreas visit. Right now, all bets are off.

Lyresa: Thank you so much for your kind, and thoughtful, words. It seems like you had to learn a few things about taking care of yourself too...so thanks for passing it on. I was sorry to learn of your husband's condition (from your signature). I hope you are both doing well. My thoughts are with you also.

Deb

PS: So nobody likes the big Bubba and Marilyn photo? I put together an entire 3-ring binder of photos, with “kitty thoughts”, for someone who was dying of cancer...and even he thought they were funny. Man, tough crowd. It must be a catspiracy.

 

[Grayson & Lu]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

I like the picture! dancing_cat

I don't know that I'd say I had experience w/ the mini-dosing, although I kinda did... just didn't know WTH I was doing at the time. We started in January 2012. Grayson was running his long cycles on 1u. So we cut back to .75, .5, .4 and .2 units. He still had several long cycles at that point, but I let him climb before I shot him, instead of trying to keep his baseline low. We never used R or N w/ the ProZinc, so I have no experience there. Then while we were happily sitting in the .2 - .4 unit range, KETONES reared their ugly head. His dosing and my sanity level went over the top! So from that point forward, we jacked up his numbers and probably missed the right dose for him.

I don't know that we saw Mr. P - I wouldn't have recognized him if we did! Because of that, I didn't do the test -feed - retest thing at that point... So I'm probably not much help... but if you want to take a gander at his spreadsheet, you can see those early days where we actually saw blues, and even an occasional green. Maybe you can learn from my mistakes!

Lu-Ann

 

[Rob & Harley (GA)]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Loved the picture and the box :lol:

I'm so sorry about Bubba. I know it can be extremely overwhelming trying to juggle multiple kitty issues and life at the same time.

I think we just wanted to help with Marilyn and rushed right by the awesome picture, are you going to post some of the others?

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Lu-Ann: Thanks so much for sharing your experience. Wow! Grayson is really keeping you busy with dosing decisions. It's crazy how 5.0u on 4/8...and then 3.0u on 4/12...gave you basically the same nadir. I'd be ripping my hair out on that one. Regarding Mr. P...I believe you'll recognize him when you see him. Here's hoping you do!

Robin:

I'm so sorry about Bubba. I know it can be extremely overwhelming trying to juggle multiple kitty issues and life at the same time.

Thanks about Bubba...and yes, I have about 30 individualized feedings per day. Eight of ten felines are on various meds and supplements BID...some of them multiple meds/supplements BID. Previously, the two dogs were washed & groomed weekly...which takes about 3-hours. Since Marilyn's dx...they're lucky to get bathed monthly. So I guess "overwhelming" about sums it up.

I think we just wanted to help with Marilyn and rushed right by the awesome picture, are you going to post some of the others?

I would post others...but no one will see them. :lol: Seriously, someone pointed out earlier this evening that my humor is “dryer than Death Valley”...but here's one more for the road...since Marilyn has me awake (1.0u PZ AM+3 = 163).

 

[RobbiesMom]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

For what it's worth I think the photos are hysterical and adorable. thank you for posting them. Hang in there.

 

[Rob & Harley (GA)]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

I really do understand, when I first started this dance there were so many other things going on that if something wasn't life threatening it fell by the wayside, I'm just now getting back to some sort of normal.

:lol: Joined at the paws......they are beautiful. I hope you keep posting the pics.

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

Re: 4/10/12 Marilyn: Mini Dosing, Pancreas Action, & Now Bac

Seriously, someone pointed out earlier this evening that my humor is “dryer than Death Valley”

While I mostly enjoy "dripping with sarcasm", dry is good too. :smile: Regardless, anyone pointing that out to you is tacky, IMO.
Humor is what humor is. It helps people "deal", so whether it's from Death Valley or on top of old Smokey, keep it coming.

Carl