3/7 Ebby Fine, Babo Liver Cancer? :(

[MelissaEbby]

2/9

Hello all. I just received some very sad news about Ebby's brother Babo and looking for any input on those that may have dealt with this sort of diagnosis.

We just got done with an ultrasound and the vet thinks at least part of his liver shows signs of cancer. They did not biopsy. He has lost 2 pounds in about a month and is down to 7.8 pounds from about 10-11 pounds. Liver enzymes are normal. All other blood work is normal. His symptoms that prompted us to take him in were the weight loss and vomiting. Vet mentioned we could:

1. try exploratory surgery to confirm and possibly take out cancerous portion of liver and leave any that is normal. If all of the liver is cancerous he would be put down during the surgery.
2. try steroids

I must say, I don't know how to handle this or what we should do. We are both devastated. I just thought I would post to see if others have dealt with this. He was active and happy/healthy just last month. We're headed out to dinner with Mother in law...not in the mood, but we should go, and maybe I can at least have a drink. Thanks for any wisdom or advice.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Is your vet the person interpreting the ultrasound? Most vets in a general practice aren't experts at reading an ultrasound. Perhaps he could send the materials to someone who is an expert. There have been a number of kitties here who had an ultrasound or other test, their vet thought there might be something dire, and as it turned out, when an expert read the ultrasound (etc.), there wasn't an issue. It's just a thought.....

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Oh Melissa..Such awful news and such a horrible place it puts you in.

I agree with Sienne though...We've seen so many times when one vet has said the C word, and then we've found out that a specialist says no such thing. It's worth looking into I think. Especially since you already paid for the test. You might have to pay a fee for them to look at the test results and check him over, but they shouldn't have to repeat it.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that if he had invasive liver cancer, his liver function tests would look fine, but I'm not a vet of any kind.

Sending you lots of good healing vines, and hoping you can get some better choices.

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

adding prayers from me....

I hope your vet is wrong. My own vet thought cancer when she showed me our hip x-ray and it turned out to be just severe osteoarthritis with lots of modeling.
just like people need second opinions, so do our furbabies.

 

[Tina & Rocky]

I agree with Chris.. it doesn't make sense that Babo's liver enzymes would be normal and that he would be diagnosed with liver cancer. I'm not a vet, just sayin' if an organ is sick it's probably not doing it's job very well, right? :roll:

What if it were a benign tumor on the liver? Sometimes during episodes of pancreatitis the bile from the stomach can spill out of the gut and surround the liver and other organs. That's what my vet told me about my late kitty Jomo. If this happens enough times there can be a thickening around the organs and small non-cancerous tumors can start to form. The bad thing about this is if the tumors get big enough they can stop an organ from functioning.

I don't know how to look at an ultra-sound, but it is probably dang hard to tell if a tumor is on the inside of an organ or growing on the outside of it. The only way to really find out is to have surgery.

I would get the test read by someone trained in ultra-sound, ask them if they know for SURE whether the tumor is on the inside or the outside of the liver.

I would get my cat surgery. That's what I did with my little Jomo. It turned out that she had 13 cysts growing inside of her. Almost all of them were removed and the ones that were attached to organs they drained and then removed as much as possible of them.

There is a test that they can do to withdraw fluid from the tumor as well, (without surgery) to see if there are cancer cells in it. All of my late kitty Jomo's tests came back negative for cancer. If possible, I suggest you do this test for Babo. None of the vets believed that Jomo's cancer tests were accurate, so I told them that they could do surgery. Even when they took the actual tissue from the tumors and tested them were negative for cancer.

 

[MelissaEbby]

Thank you Sienne, Rhiannon, Chris, and Tina. This has been a difficult 24 hours, but I'm coming to terms with the reality a bit today.

Sienne, It was not Babo's regular vet, but was a different vet that supposedly is experienced in ultrasound, but I agree...not an expert. I talked to his regular vet today and asked about getting a second opinion from a radiologist and he agreed that second opinions never hurt, and that indeed the doctor that performed the ultrasound was not a radiologist. He said she was fairly confident that she was seeing something abnormal in the liver and Babo also acted like it kind of hurt when she examined that area during ultrasound. He was very open to getting a second opinion, I just hope they have an image from the ultrasound documented because I hate to put him through another one.

Chris, First off, I hope you're recovering nicely from the surgery and thanks for taking the time to visit and help, even me with so much on your own plate. Those liver function tests kind of bug me too. I would think those values would be off if the liver was compromised from cancer. Both vets have sort of a different answer to that. The vet that performed the ultrasound said that sometimes the liver is damaged so much that it's not really showing abnormal values because it is just so damaged. Doesn't quite make sense to me, but maybe I'm misinformed or wasn't understanding her correctly. Babo's regular vet said that since cancer can sometimes just affect a portion of the liver, the normal portion functions fine keeping the blood work in the normal range.

Rhiannon, I sure hope the diagnosis is wrong too. I don't think they can be all that sure with the ultrasound finding, but I guess that along with the rapid weight loss is not a great sign. My own thoughts were maybe there is some scar tissue or inflammation/infection that makes the liver appear the way it does.

Tina, You make a good point about the benign tumor. I suppose this can compromise the liver too, but maybe it wouldn't be as fast. I asked the vet this morning about whether it was a primary tumor and inside/outside. He thinks probably primary since his other organs looks good. Didn't really know about inside or outside, but I don't blame him because he doesn't interpret ultrasound and I probably need to talk to an oncologist or something to get more specifics. Thanks for sharing your experience with Jomo's surgery. The big question is knowing if it is cancerous or not. Both vets seem to suggest that if we do the surgery and there is cancer in the liver, the outlook is not good. Maybe a few more months even if they can save part of the liver. With such a poor prognosis I don't know that we could put him through that. :cry:

Well, just wanted to update you guys a bit, and thank you for your concern and advice. I've never had to put an animal down. Ebby and Babo are my first animals as an adult. My mom always dealt with putting the other pets down. For now, I am going to pick up some steroids from the vet. I asked the vet if he thought it were ok to try some steroids at this point and he said absolutely. He said as long as Babo is Babo and acting fairly normal we can proceed with the steroids. Babo was still begging to play this morning and he is eating well today, so I guess just one day at a time. I sure hope it was ok to post for the non-diabetic....after getting the news I just felt I needed to consult with you guys. There is a lot of wisdom and knowledge here on the board. :YMHUG:

 

[BJM]

Although the liver values aren't compromised, it might be helpful to use either Marin or Denmarin to help support the liver.

And if something is inflamed, it can be painful, so the steroid may help with that.

I did have a civvie , Domino,with an abnormal ultrasound finding a cyst interpreted by an expert. She was jaundiced, however, so there was obviously a problem. I hoped it was a cyst; during surgery, there was evidence of invasion of the liver and she was euthanized.

 

[Tina & Rocky]

Hi Melissa,

Just wanted to remind you that maybe you could ask for that test where they stick the needle into the tumor and pull out fluid to determine if there are cancer cells in it or not? If there are no cancer cells, I would believe that test. It was accurate for my little Jomo.

Concerning whether a tumor is growing on the inside or the outside of the liver.. that CANNOT be determined from an ultra-sound. I was told this by an ultra-sound tech who looked at my little Jomo's tests. The ONLY WAY to determine of it is on the inside or on the outside is by doing surgery.

My little Jomo's pancreas was wrapped in fibrous tissues so they could not do anything for her pancreas. Where tumors were clearly attached and easy to remove from her organs, they did so. When they couldn't tell the dividing line between a tumor and the organ, they removed as much of the tumors as possible and then completely drained every tumor inside of her. Jomo went through nearly an eight hour surgery, and lived.

My 18 yr old little Jomo had nearly another 4 years of a great and wonderful life after that surgery. The vets didn't even want to do the surgery on her because she was only 4 pounds. (She was a small boned cat though and her max weight was about 6 pounds.) I said that she would make it. Because she was a rescue that I had found on the street and she was in such poor condition but still living, I knew that she had a very strong fortitude for life. Yes, she had bouts of pancreatitis now and then after the surgery and together we made it through them. Jomo was one happy and loving cat!!

Anyway, ask your vet to do that test where they stick this very long needle into the tumor and pull out fluid to test for cancer cells. You'll know more about what you need to do after you get an answer from that test. :YMPEACE:

 

[MelissaEbby]

Hi BJM, Sorry to hear this happened to Domino. If we decide on surgery, I'm worried we will have the same outcome. So much to think about. Thanks for the link to Marin and Denmarin. I hadn't seen those brands yet. I'm picking up some alcohol-free milk thistle tincture today from the health food store just because I can get it TODAY. I'm aware this may be a lost cause but I don't see the harm in trying.

Tina, Thanks for sharing the picture. Jomo is so cute. Just curious, had Jomo been loosing weight rapidly? I guess that is what makes me think it is cancer in Babo, but maybe there are other factors at play. I might try to get in touch with an oncologist...if there is such a thing for cats. The ultrasound did not show a well defined tumor or anything. It was more like abnormal banding throughout a portion of the liver. Maybe I could do another ultrasound...this time at the University with a Radiologist and have them biopsy the section during the ultrasound. Do they sedate them for the needle biopsy? That is really impressive that Jomo went on to live another 4 years.

 

[Kim & Twice]

(((Melissa)))

I'm so sorry to hear what's happening with Babo :sad: This would be such a scary time, especially not knowing for sure exactly what is going on. Sending tons of prayers Babo's way and calming vines to you. It sounds like you are getting some really great feedback from your LL family, and I think getting a second opinion is a very good idea. Tina had some great points too, about having the biopsy.
I know how stressful this kind of situation is and my heart truly goes out to you for having to go through this. And please don't ever feel bad or apologize for posting about the civvies or non-FD related issues. We are your family, and if it hurts you, it's hurting us.
Big hugs headed your way :YMHUG: :YMHUG:

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Yes, there are feline oncologists Melissa...Remember Jamie and Jupiter? Jupe lost a leg, but's still going strong, and OTJ too!

As for the ultrasound question, about the only thing you can do is find who you want to consult with and ask that the current ultrasound pictures be sent to them to look at. If they're not good enough, they'll tell you they need to repeat it.

You have all the vines, prayers, and positive energy that Lantus Land can send you guys....and you know miracles can happen from that.

 

[Tina & Rocky]

Banding Around Liver

Ah.. I didn't know that it wasn't a tumor. Jomo had these fibrous bands around her pancreas, like what you are describing. In fact, the vet who performed the surgery on Jomo described Jomo's pancreas to me like this--

"Jomo's pancreas looks like it has been rolled in a wad of gum that has then been rolled into a pile of leaves." :shock: :cry:

I'm not a vet, but I don't think that banding around Babo's liver is cancer. Here's the other thing.. if your doctor can't read an ultra-sound, is he/she sure that banding is around the liver, and not the pancreas?

During really bad pancreatic attacks bile is spilled out into the outside areas of the digestive system. Over time, as these attacks continue and are not stopped or treated, it leave this scaring, this banding. It does not necessarily mean that the organ has stopped functioning.

Jomo would lose weight rapidly during a P-episode because she would stop eating, vomit, and poop a lot more. She also experienced incredible pain if I picked her up any where underneath her, touching her abdomen. (Exactly like you described Babo) I had to make sure when I picked her up to put my hands under her back feet instead of under her belly.

As far as rapid weight loss-- Is Babo eating? How often is he vomiting, how much, and what does it look like? Does he vomit right after he eats?? Is Babo pooping or peeing any more than normal? What size and color is his poop in the past week?

I don't think it is cancer. It might be cystic fibrosis in the digestive system causing cirrhosis of the liver. However, it sounds like right now that the liver is still functioning as it should. It might also be pancreatitis.

Have your vet test Babo for pancreatitis. It is a different type of blood test, a separate blood test. Pancreatitis cannot be determined with the general blood panel.

What were you feeding Babo for the month leading up to all of this vomiting?

In the meantime, are you helping Babo to eat and drink water, and what are you feeding him now? Have you syringe fed him yet?

 

[MelissaEbby]

Oh, Kim, Chris, and Tina....thank you. :YMHUG: Your support means so much.

Kim, your words have always been so calming and empathetic. A sincere thank you.

Chris, Oh, yes. I absolutely remember Jupiter. It was one of the first things I thought of after this diagnosis. Although, if it truly is cancer on the liver, I think this is a whole different ball game as far as removing and treating, since it could involve such an important organ. I talked to the regular vet yesterday, and he said they don't often see good results from trying to remove cancer from the liver. Tomorrow I'm going to call around and talk to the vet for some recommendations for an oncologist and radiologist. Thanks so much for the prayers and vine.

Hi Tina, When the doctor was performing the ultrasound she had me come back to show me the area she had concern with. I asked that exact same thing about the pancreas because that was one of my first thoughts too. She said the liver and pancreas on on completely different sides so there should be no confusing them. I also asked if she could differentiate between the bowel and liver and she said yes. What you say makes sense about the bile spillage. I think I will get a pancreatitis blood test. I'm going to research cystic fibrosis.

As far as rapid weight loss-- Is Babo eating? How often is he vomiting, how much, and what does it look like? Does he vomit right after he eats??

Babo is still eating. He has only vomited once this week and it looked like watery food. Before that, he was vomiting on average once a day for a week or so. We thought maybe he had a hairball but when we it didn't stop we took him to the vet. Sometimes he would vomit right after he ate, sometimes a little delayed. The anti-nausea shot they gave him at vet helped.

Is Babo pooping or peeing any more than normal? What size and color is his poop in the past week?

Poop has been fairly normal color I think. BUT, this is weird. After we had him to the vet the first time for what we thought was just an upset tummy, he pooped the hugest poop I've ever seen come from a cat. :lol: ...it looked like it belonged to a large dog. Abnormal for him. I had hoped this was the cause of the tummy upset.

What were you feeding Babo for the month leading up to all of this vomiting?

He eats what Ebby eats: Wellness canned turkey, chicken, and some wellness pouches, and sometimes a little of Ebby's HC Soulistic food.

In the meantime, are you helping Babo to eat and drink water, and what are you feeding him now? Have you syringe fed him yet?

Babo actually is fairly interested in eating, but I started taking up snacks to him during the day and trying to encourage it even more. I think a lot of smaller meals might be easier on the liver/digestive system than larger meals. No need to syringe feed....he seems very ok with eating right now. I'm going to try to get more food down him in attempts to gain weight. He got his first dose of steroids yesterday so that seems to be helping his appetite too. Thanks so much for brainstorming this with me, and for your suggestions. It means a lot.