3/26 Hershey

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Doug N Libby

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AMPS (317) 3:10am Shot .4u - Trying out the idea of taking the lower part of the 300's and upper 200's to make a .4u range
+4.5 (256) Maybe should've gone with .5u?
+6 (209)
+10 (310)


PMPS (304) 3:30pm Shot .5u - Delayed because it took me a while to eyeball it :roll: Fed 1-1/2 times usual amount of food to see if it helps keep him lower longer
+3 (316)
+5.5 (356) - Was thinking it was +6. Anyway, WHY is the +5.5 higher than PMPS??
+6 (350) - Fed 1/2 usual amount
+10.5 (405)

Well, this cycle was a bust!
 
Sometimes I have those feelings too of I should have gone with....after I have seen the cycle.

There is always another cycle... ;-)

Have a happy Monday & a great new cycle!
 
I have a feeling this might be a long cycle. You know Hershey has a mind of his own!

Wishing you a Great Day!
 
Doug N Libby said:
AMPS (317) 3:10am Shot .4u - Trying out the idea of taking the lower part of the 300's and upper 200's to make a .4u range
+4.5 (256) Maybe should've gone with .5u?
+6 (209)

You can adjust the scale as needed, you've got a good eye and can see the trends. Make an adjustment and see if it worked, if it did keep it, if it didn't adjust it again.

I would test at +3 or +4 whenever you can so you can catch those nose dives he likes to take occationally.

Robin
 
+10 (310) - Is it my imagination or are his cycles really starting to fizzle around +10?

Robin - I was trying to test at +3, but my long-extended fog has played with my math (& alarm setting) skills :roll: With all of the shot schedule changes of late, I think I may have to write it down...

Hoping the testing supplies I ordered come in today or early tomorrow; don't think we have enough strips to get us through tomorrow and Walmart was out when I went. (They didn't have the batteries, either :YMSIGH: )

Hope everyone has a great day!
 
It's not your imagination, maybe up the dose by .1u and see if that helps lengthen his cycle and give him a better nadir.

But not before you get the new testing supplies. :smile:

Have a great day.
 
Re: 3/26 Hershey PM shot question

PMPS (304) +12 is virtually the same number as +10 (310) - so guessin' he's holding steady? Do I have to wait to retest to confirm he's rising or can't I just go ahead since he seems to be in a holding pattern?
 
He has risen from mid day so it should be ok to just shoot.

What the heck is he doing lately? I keep looking at your ss and can't see anything odd going on.
 
Shot .5u

Never got a shipping confirmation email from the testing supplies, so today I went to the site to check. Said they should arrive today!

Robin - I have NO idea what he's doing. I have stared and stared at his SS and watched him like a hawk and can't see anything different. I read Kim's observation (now I can't remember who's thread it was on) that she thought mid-cycle food shortened the cycle. I had been wondering about that with Hershey, too. So, beginning this cycle, I'm going to try giving him 1-1/2 the amount of food he usually gets at food time and only 1/2 the amount at the +6. I just don't think he'd go for only eating every 12 hours. Sometimes, especially since the time change, it's hard to get him to go 6 hours!!

You said it, Kim, Hershey DOES have a mind of his own. I wish he'd share his plans with me once in a while ;-)
 
+5.5 (356) - Was thinking it was +6. Anyway, WHY is the +5.5 higher than PMPS??

They sure keep us scratching our heads, don't they???
 
.4 into (317) brought him down to (209) at +6, so I was thinking he needed a little more. But, .5u into (304) seems to be too much. I KNOW I can't measure .45u @-)

Do you think the increase in food at shot time could've been a bad idea? I was thinking more when he gets the insulin and less at +6 might help him enjoy lower numbers longer. Maybe not???
 
Wow, Hershey does have a mind of his own. I think your logic about more food at shot time and less mid cycle makes sense. That is kind of what I do with Sid. Sometimes it seems to work, other times, not. Maybe reducing the dose a bit is worth a shot.
 
That's what I was saying confused me. Yesterday's .4u seemed to indicate he needed an increase and today's .5u said the opposite. I think Hershey's just messing with my mind!!! Like I need anything else messing with me :lol:

Thanks, y'all!!!
 
Sorry for the not so good day. There is always tomorrow. Besides you are really doing great going so low on the insulin now. Wow didn't realize you were @ .4. I guess i really am behind in catching up with everyone.

Glad you all had a good day too weather wise. Are you in Raleigh?
 
Thanks, Lori, I was posting on yours while you were posting on mine. :cool:

We're about 23 miles from Raleigh, depending on where you're trying to get to in Raleigh. :smile:

Here's to a better cycle tomorrow for both of us!

Sent Carl a PM asking about his thoughts about the food correlation -
 
I went to college @NCSU. Loved Raleigh. I bet Lake Jordan is high from all the rain.

I'll be interested in what carl has to say about the food correlation. I just feed copper consistently every 4hrs same amount. He doesn't seem to be effected at all, but he is a food hound and will hunt a mole, mouse or birdie if i don't fed him regularly. So who knows.

Look forward to tomorrow's cycles. Paws crossed!!!
 
So, I guess I'll go back to where we were yesterday dosage-wise unless/until I hear/see otherwise. Asking now because most of y'all will asleep when it's shot time :smile:
 
Doug N Libby said:
So, I guess I'll go back to where we were yesterday dosage-wise unless/until I hear/see otherwise. Asking now because most of y'all will asleep when it's shot time :smile:


That sounds good, it will tell us if the dose today was too high.
 
+10 (310) - Is it my imagination or are his cycles really starting to fizzle around +10?

I'll get to the rest in a minute, but I saw this and wanted to address it first. Last week or two, I got a PM that linked a study done on Prozinc, which was great reading. The study was intended to compare how Prozinc worked compared to "old" PZI that is no longer made. Anyway, one of the things the study monitored was the time until nadir (and therefore, total cycle time if you double it). It had some weird info like the cats (133 of them) had nadirs that ranged anywhere from +1 to +9 at the extremes, but what I found interesting is that it appeared that the longer a kitty was on Prozinc, their nadir came a bit earlier as time went by. The study only went for 45 days, I think, but the "mean" time of nadir down by an hour or so over that time frame.
When Libby posted that his cycles seem to be getting shorter, it reminded me of this study.
Here's a link to it, and you can see the nadir data on one of the charts. What I didn't like was the wide range they put on the nadir. Like 5.4 +/- 2.5 hours. I said "what? How vague is that? Way too loose a figure IMO. But you will see that it went down from 5. something to 4. something as the time went on.
Another thing that struck me was that it said that 25% of kitties had a nadir of 9 hours or more. Which I think helps explain why we have been seeing a lot of long cycles with some cats.
There were some obvious flaws in the study (no home testing, vets determined dose adjustments based on curves every couple of weeks, etc), but there is some interesting stuff in it. And it wasn't intended to establish a rate for remission either. It's primary purpose was to test Prozinc to see how it compared to PZI Vet or whatever the old version of PZI was called.
 

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OK, I'm not a feline nutrition expert, I just read a lot....

Here's my basic theory. Food raises BG. More food raises it more. Higher carbs raises it more.
Insulin lowers BG.

Elementary stuff, right?

Specific to Hershey. Feeding him his normal amounts at shot time will raise his BG "normally" once the food hits his system. This can happen like an hour after he eats, and depending on how long it takes to digest, can take several hours to digest. Food isn't turned immediately into glucose in his tummy. Most of the converting happens once the food hits the small intestine and then gets into the bloodstream. If you feed him more at shot time, it's going to raise his BG more than normal, and it's going to take longer to digest. So, it will raise BG longer, or higher, or both. If you then feed him a little bit at +6, it would seem that this would give him a tiny boost in the +7 to +9ish range, right about the time the insulin should be past peaking and petering out.

So, I would think his curve would look like it drops less quickly, and less in general, flattens out for an hour or two, and then rises back until next shot time. In general, I think it would look flatter than normal. Because you feed the middle of the cycle a little less, then the climb in the 2nd half of the cycle should be slower.

Does that sound logical?

As far a feeding mid-cycle goes....

What has been suggested to Lydia and others lately is to try to use food to "manipulate" the curve. People do this all the time with Lantus, some feeding "mini-meals" at +1, +2, +3 and sometimes +4, rather than feeding all at the start of the cycle. The intent, as I understand it, is to flatten the curve on purpose, and stop kitty from diving deep and fast in the first 3 or 4 hours of the cycle, like Sid was prone to do, especially when Lydia was having to supplement with "R" insulin to chase away ketones. I've had numerous conversations with Marjorie (and Gracie) on use of food to shape the curve, and she is really knowledgeable on the subject. And it seems to work on many kitties. I have mentioned this concept a couple of times to some PZI beans, but not to that extreme. What I think can work is if you are seeing nadirs that are too deep, or sudden drops in the first half of a cycle, then you break that "normal" meal into a couple of smaller meals.
Let's say kitty normally eats a 5.5 ounce can for breakfast. Instead of all of it, feed 3oz at shot time, and then the other 2.5oz at like +3 or +4, whenever it is that you have seen the insulin really kick in and push the BG down hard and fast. That 2nd helping, if timed right, should give kitty a 2nd BG boost that will offset the insulin's downward motion on the BG. So, the kitty won't drop as fast or as far. It makes for a flatter curve, but not a flat curve. It buffers the low numbers, so instead of going from pink to green, maybe you go from pink to blue, or a low yellow. The intent is to avoid the drop that is so much that it results in liver panic and the bounces that follow and take a few cycles to clear. Because all they do is muddy the water and make you sit there and think...."should I reduce?, so should I increase???" What I hope will happen is that you won't have to wonder, or have to adjust at all. If the liver doesn't panic, then maybe the preshots will get lower, and the progression will be that all the numbers come down together, and you don't get all the bouncing. Your curves might not look really drastic or fantastic, but they'll be effective and allow the pancreas time to heal. If you want a deeper curve, then feed less in the middle, but just not too little, or you get deep drop, and then the panic and bounce. Using food this way gives you the effect of a lower dose, without lowering the dose. Make any sense?

I read Kim's observation (now I can't remember who's thread it was on) that she thought mid-cycle food shortened the cycle.

If you can find where that is, let me see it? I don't know the context, or want to say I agree, disagree or understand without reading it first. I can see where feeding mid-cycle could cause the BG to rise if the kitty is surfing in the middle of a cycle, for sure. You can basically use food as the "anti-insulin" at any point during a cycle if you time it right. And there are IMO valid reasons for doing so as I tried to explain above. If kitty was consistently running "long duration", I can even see where you would want to use it to shorten a cycle if you could. Maybe Kim recalls which thread it was in...

Carl
 
Thanks for the file Carl - I'll have to read when my eyes are more awake.

I'll be curious to see how the food change impacts his numbers. Grayson is EXTREMELY UNHAPPY when he eats at 12 instead of more frequently. Today he about ripped the cabinets off the wall... watch out for those opposable thumbs. Pretty soon he'll figure out how to open the microwave... then I'm buying a safe! Who knew he was so skilled???

You've shot .4 and .5 into relatively same numbers - sometimes with consistent results, others w/ a wide range. You could go either way... so much for getting the schedule back... when HE gets a vote!
 
Oh, one other point I wanted to raise....

Food, ANY food, even zero carb food, can raise BG. Cats have no dietary requirement at all for carbohydrates. They can convert protein and fat into glucose to supply their body with all the energy they need to function. It makes perfect sense that we, as sugarkitty beans, would want to limit carbs to as low as possible, because carbs are either converted to glucose, stored as fat, or peed out of the system. So the less we add, the better for the cats. Just wanted to say that if food contains protein or fat (how could it not, it has to have "something" in it?), and we are feeding enough food per day to provide proper nutrition and calories, then the food will cause the BG to go up, even if it contains zero carbs.
This site has as much good information about feline nutrition and how a cat digests food as Dr. P's site does: (I've got it bookmarked!)
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

Carl
 
Thanks carl for all the GREAT info as usual!

Now i'm going to through in a curve ball, and ask a question. I have noticed with copper that if i only feed, say 3 or 4 times per day med food amounts vs. 6x per day small meals that his BG goes higher. That is if i stay within the total amounts needed per day and not go over it he seems fine. BUT, if i miss a meal near ps's, then i find that his BG goes even higher. Why would that be? With copper, keeping consistency with meal times and amounts has really help level him out. Weird, huh?
 
Lori,
When you miss that meal, is it before, or after shot time? Just so I understand the timing better.

Carl
 
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