3/21 Kitty AMPS129,+3 109,+5 78.+7 100,PMPS93-What's wrong?

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Kathy and Kitty

Kathy and Kitty

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Yesterday: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9722

...in which Kitty had three blue tests around 108, which he has not done since last November. And this morning, what I feared: AMPS of 129. I reverted to the last effective dose of .5.

So what is wrong? Even if he just didn't like the .25, he shouldn't have gone up to 129. Checking off possibilities:

- the insulin. We opened a new vial March 2. Even if the insulin bottle is compromised by bubbles from bad syringes -- a possibility -- would a cat with tests ranging frm 70's to 90's at .25 go this high in reaction?

- food: Fancy Feast is unreliable lately, he isn't eating as well, but he should go lower, not higher.

- Just not ready to go OTJ: this breaks my heart. He has been pointed this way for months, green as grass. If there's been dose 'drift,' it's my fault. I've been measuring everything since Wednesday. If I inadvertently gave him a .3 reduction instead of .25 -- would that cause this reaction?

- Pain. This morning, my bet is on pain. Kitty had a diagnosis of resorbed roots at his dental in February -- so advanced that there are no lesions, or even nerves anymore! But the local dentist didn't feel qualified to do the surgery. Our only choice was a board certified vet three hours away, and that's not really an option, for many reasons. Kitty was playing this week -- maybe he bit on a toy and disturbed the teeth? The teeth are still there.

What to do:
- I raised the dose.
- I can change the insulin bottle on Tuesday, though I'm not feeling that's the problem.
- Try a bupe trial? Does bupe affect BG?
- Vet: get some bloodwork?

I would really appreciate getting ideas on what might be wrong, and what to do. I admit, I'm very discouraged.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

Morning Kathy. I'm sorry you're discouraged. IMO, I would think the BG would be higher if it was pain, but what do I know. You've come so far. I think Kitty will come around. 129 isn't so bad for an AMPS. Let's see what the spot checks say.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

in regards to pain, wondering - wouldn't numbers be a lot higher than low blues?

vial, easy to change, if u have some doubts, go for it

food - have you tried any other brands?

Honestly, Kitty's numbers are really nice, would love to see whats going on in the evening thou - are u away in the evenings most of the time?

Stay calm, ok? We'll see what others say - yesterday - you had good feedback too, read thru again, maybe something will jump out at you.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

If it's teeth, I don't think blood work will tell you that. You will probably need dental x-rays to know if there are any more resorptions. Has Kitty been eating without any obvious discomfort?

I really want to suggest that you get PM tests. You have no idea if Kitty was at a 30 and the blue you are seeing is a "bounce."
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

Good Morning Kathy!!!!

1. He's playing! Do you see any signs there might be another issue or pain involved? Have you tried different food to see if it's the FF or possibly something else?

2. This is one AMPS reading at 129...yes, yesterday's were in the low 100s, but again, very normal range. I'll be interested to see what others say about this.

3. He might not be ready to go OTJ but I also thought I read in someone's condo something about some kitties go into low blues for AMPS/PMPS before going OTJ and that's unexplained. Again, would love for others to comment on this.

4. Even if he's not ready to go OTJ now...don't give up!

Just wanted to send you some big :RAHCAT :RAHCAT :RAHCAT and as always, some extra squeezes for Kitty!!!!
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

Kathy,
Along with everyone else, I'll say that 129 isn't bad at all but knowing you a little better than before I DO understand why you're upset and I would be too. There's something that threw Kitty off track and everything that you mentioned is a possibility or maybe nothing. Maybe the insulin, although I doubt that you have altered the integrity in any way...you're too careful. And I'm sure your measuring is as precise as anyone's can be.
If you want to do a bupe test and Kitty is in pain the bupe will more than like bring his number down...that was the point of my giving it to Alex I'm quite sure. To see if it affected his bg, therefore finding out if he was in pain.

That's all I can offer Kathy but I really don't think Kitty is "sick" if that helps any, his numbers are just off a little for some reason and will probably be down by tonight :razz:

((((Kathy))))
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

Thanks, everyone. I am in tears. It's just that, when you look at his spreadsheet, you'll see how wildly out of line this is. He hasn't been this high since November 3, and he hasn't had a blue mid-day test since November either. And yes, we were so close.

It makes me feel better to hear that some OTJ kitties "go blue" before trials. But I hope this doesn't mean I made a mistake by returning to the last effective dose, as we discussed last night.

It also makes me feel better to think it isn't pain, that numbers would be even high (though he is now 20 points higher than last night).

Sienne, I could NOT get blood last night for a bedcheck-- and I ALWAYS get blood. I will get a +3 today, and I will get a bedcheck tonight for sure.

I do think I measure as precisely as is possible, and I take care of the insulin. If this is my dosing error, how awful.

But yes, he was playing. Yes, he is eating and grooming -- all things the vet said were indicators that he is not in pain. The LB is normal. Only his BG isn't normal. :roll:

I will get a new bottle of insulin as soon as I can, though that might be Tuesday.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty and bedchecks and bounce

Sienne, on the bounce issue -- he did eat a full can of food last night, everything I left for him.

I get discouraged about bedchecks because I can't usually stay up later than +2 or +2.5 (if I want to earn money to buy insulin, that is), and he rarely showed any indications of drops by then.

And look how even he was yesterday. 107, 106, 108.

But not arguing -- I will absotively, posilutely have a bedcheck tonight. The Vampire is On.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

No advice from me but just wanted to offer support and understanding of frustration!!!! Hope your Sunday gets better! Hugs!!!
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

I also look at it from the perspective of a chance occurrence along with meter variance. If you only get one check per day, there's not a lot of opportunity to know what's going on. Case in point, I poked Gabby at +2 today and got a 15. While she's known for drama, I didn't believe the number. I immediately re-tested and got a number in the 300s which was more consistent with her PS. If I only went by that test, Gabby would probably be still be munching on HC. I'm not trying to say that Kitty hasn't been green all of this time but it's possible some of the blues are chance and/or meter variance.

Also, if DH has been shooting even a drop more or less than what you are shooting, at these tiny doses it does make a big difference.

Deep breath. No panic. It's better to problem solve.
 
Re: 3/21 Sienne - dose question

Sienne -- Was it a mistake to raise the dose back to .5 this morning?

I suppose I could have re-tested the 129 this morning, but after yesterday, I believed it.

Kitty has been so regular -- even though I got only three tests, they usually all made sense together, week after week after week. But as I said, bedcheck tonight, without fail. I don't know why I couldn't get blood last night.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

Kathy, I know you're sad and disappointed right now. But I have to say, Kitty is going to do what Kitty is going to do...don't be sad, don't be disappointed. I looked at your ss, and thought wow, great work on both your parts.

I did want to mention that when you said " Fancy Feast is unreliable lately, he isn't eating as well, but he should go lower, not higher", I wanted to say that actually, as counterintuitive as it may be, no food=higher glucose numbers...why? Because the liver thinks the body's starving, and starts to put sugars into the system. This dump can cause higher sugar numbers, just because it's the body's defense system to perceived starvation. So sometimes, when they don't eat, the liver wakes up and goes to work...that's why "mini meals" and food available all the time works really well for diabetic people/cats. If something is in their system, the liver doesn't get activated...or at least not too much. Low/no food does not mean no sugars, o.k.? So maybe it's not pain, but rather it's no food causing the higher numbers...and once he eats something, he'll bring those sugars down by himself.

One of the tests to determine insulin deficiency (in humans) is a fasting glucose test. The number scale given is actually about 30-40 points higher than it should be when one has eaten a meal...so it's something which is quite well known and expected. It's not exactly well understood, but a lot of medicine is not well understood, so...there you go.

I also wanted to say that in nursing, we are always taught to look at the patient. Is the patient all right? I've seen some things on monitors which make me shake in my clogs; but the patient himself is just fine. And, I've seen someone actively trying to die on me whose monitors did not show a thing wrong. What is the patient doing? Is he all right? That's the bottomest bottom line, you know?

So hang in there. You're not doing anything wrong. You didn't make an error. Your Kitty is being Kitty...and those numbers are fine and dandy. Maybe he has decided **his** regulation place is not green, but low blue? Maybe that's where **his** body likes to work, and works best, you know? And maybe, it's just a little blip and will clear on it's own, soon.

Don't be sad...it'll be all right. (((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))

Best-
Michele
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

Thank you, Michele.

Kitty IS getting food. I have to hold the plate is in face after shots, sometimes, to get him to eat enough. I put chicken dust on it... I've tried to be sure he gets enough. There is ALWAYS ALWAYS food out for him. He ate a full can overnight. But that could also suggest that this is a bounce -- he doesn't usually eat it all, so maybe he went low and ate.

Yes... the patient is okay. The patient purrs and eats and grooms and even plays, and goes out on the porch then in then out then in... in other words, active. :smile:

I just wish i could figure out why he has left the greens. There must be a reason. :YMSIGH: I will try to work the problem.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

awww kathy .. I don't really have any advice for you guys, but I want you to know I feel bad that you are going through this. To be so close, and then have this going on. But don't forget, blue numbers are not bad. Hopefully it's just blue before OTJ, or something as simple as the food. I hope you guys get this figured out.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

I have a bunch of random thoughts. No conclusions, just thoughts. :smile:

a) you didn't do anything to cause this. If your dose was a drop less than DH's and if that made a difference, so be it, now you increased so it is fixed. Just have to wait for the shed to refill, if that's all it was.

b) you didn't make a mistake by increasing this morning. I would be aggressive at this point too. Note that I didn't say it's ok react strictly out of panic! But it's ok to be aggressive, as long as you're not stupid about it. I don't think you were stupid about it, so we're ok. :smile:

c) I highly doubt it's the insulin vial, but if you want to try another one go ahead.

d) Food - could be, I guess. It's probably worth experimenting, if everything else is ok with Kitty.

e) Pain - could be, or some other health issue you haven't spotted yet.

f) Dose reduction failed - ok, yes that's a possibility. Going OTJ is a delicate balance and while some of the newer-diagnosed kitties make it look like a piece of cake, really it can be quite the dance to reduce just the right amount at just the right time.

g) double check and be sure you're not doing what MJ/Donovan did once, where she thought she was shooting 1 drop and then figured out there was no insulin in the syringe! LOL!

h) have you retested yet? Is he green yet?

i) or it could be a "blip"
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

Hang in there Kathy! You guys have come so, so far. If Kitty needs a little more time, so be it...he's always been a tough one. You would have never imagined he would go from 5 u to .25 u, right? You're doing a great job with the boy and there's nothing wrong with things taking a bit longer.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, +3 109, shot .5

My take is that this indicates these scores are not a blip, nor is the insulin at fault. This is an appropriate drop for +3 at a slightly increased dose.

f) Dose reduction failed - ok, yes that's a possibility. Going OTJ is a delicate balance and while some of the newer-diagnosed kitties make it look like a piece of cake, really it can be quite the dance to reduce just the right amount at just the right time.
Click to expand...

Libby, thanks for reassuring me, especially about moving back up to .5. I tend to overreact, but that 129 seemed to say, "Your reduction did not hold" -- and that alone is so startling for him. Four blues in a row -- from him, that's information.

I would like to think this means OTJ is not off the table for Kitty. Jill has warned me about last-minutes stalls repeatedly, and not racing for the finish line - I honestly thought I had protected against that, but a .25 reduction from .5 may have been too much. I just wanted a dose I could measure consistently, but maybe I cut it too close.

Yes, there is insulin in the syringe. I had measured so that the top of the stopper was close to the zero line, but there was still daylight. I was using the pictures, and I thought that was a legitimate .25. At no time did the stopper reach the line.

Thanks for the input and support. I feel awful.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

p.s. Would like to know if others agree that his +3 drops suggests the vial is not the problem.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, +3 109, shot .5

Kathy and Kitty said:
Yes, there is insulin in the syringe. I had measured so that the top of the stopper was close to the zero line, but there was still daylight. I was using the pictures, and I thought that was a legitimate .25. At no time did the stopper reach the line.
Click to expand...

Speaking as someone who thought they were shooting a Fat Zero and was really shooting fumes, have you tried pressing the plunger to be sure *something* is coming out of the needle? It wasn't until I did that that I realized I was actually shooting nothing.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129 - Something is wrong

Kathy and Kitty said:
p.s. Would like to know if others agree that his +3 drops suggests the vial is not the problem.
Click to expand...

A nice little drop at +3 might also indicate that a pancreas is trying to work and just needs a bit of support. :mrgreen:
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109-Something is wrong

(((kathy)))
glad you raised the dose. this could be something as simple as a hairball brewing. the weather is changing. i don't know about kitty, but mine have started shedding. 3 out of 4 have spit up hairballs this past week and the 4th is working on it. watch the numbers. it may only take a couple of doses at 0.5u to bring the numbers back down.
hang in there...
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109-Something is wrong

have you tried pressing the plunger to be sure *something* is coming out of the needle? It wasn't until I did that that I realized I was actually shooting nothing.
Click to expand...

MJ, thanks, I just ran a test. Talk about MICRO dosing! But yes, I'd say about a drop came out -- not enough to puddle in my hand, but enough to visibly wet it. Amazing hat such a tiny amount of medicine can have an impact.

I'm wondering whether to rush out to buy a new vial. We'd waste about 1/3 of a vial, and it would cost $15 more than Costco (pharmacy is closed on Sunday). That's why I wondered if the +3 drop showed the insulin worked.

Jill -- I'm very glad you think raising the dose was the right move. Kitty hasn't been shedding, but he has major spring fever - he goes bonkers when we leave the porch door open. He's just been so incredibly regular for so long -- didn't think hairballs or spring fever would push him up.

Kitty hasn't had an increase in ages. I'll watch closely (but will try to remember to breathe).
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109-Something is wrong

Aww, Kathy, hang in there! I can totally understand your feelings here...believe me! I am here for moral support...I have needed it myself lately and it is my turn to pay it forward! OTJ is not out of reach. Kitty may just be having a run of bad days, maybe ate something that didn't agree with her, may be in some pain...who knows, could be anything. I think I would have increase your dose a tad also. I hope that it helps.
(((Kathy & Kitty)))
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109-Something is wrong

I'll add my 2 cents -

you're doing great! you aren't panicking, but are right to be concerned.

However, if the lantus was bad, you wouldn't get a drop - so agree with Libby, etc. not the lantus.

Since many others are having issues with the new FF, personally, I say stop using it and feed a different product. I don't know what's going on with FF, but several cats refuse to eat it and Caryl & I were talking and she said that she noticed a difference in appearance and density between old and new. (Even though her boys are enjoying the new without issue).

Whatever they changed, may be just enough to deter Kitty from eating it. So, pick a different brand and try that.

I recently learned about Nature's Logic, got some samples to try and so far my girls are enjoying it. I asked for the as fed values, but reading the ingredients I can tell it's a low carb. Maybe worth checking out - it is quite dense, so I add lots of water to it (which I do anyway).


Regarding pain, well that's always a possibility and the teeth may be the issue. We talked about the travel restraints, but the teeth may have to be addressed. At a minimum, I wonder if new dental xrays will tell you anything and at least give some insight if that is the issue.

Raising the dose - sure why not, you know what you are doing and again as long as you are consistent, you are at such a small amount now, that maybe he does need a little more assistance - especially if there is a pain issue going on.

And YES - a resounding YES - OTJ is definitely a possibility - as Heather said, look how far you've come - up and down that dosing scale into these micro doses. I believe there is an end in sight AND

If there isn't, so what - as long as he is happy and healthy, if he needs these micro doses for a longer time or even forever - so what - yes, we all want to remove that pressure of the testing and must be home to shoot kitty from our lives, however, his numbers are still good - in a very healthy range that if you continue with insulin - it's fine. If he goes OTJ - Bonus!

look at Mr. Spot - Zippy boy doesn't even know it, but he's been extended, why so his mom can feel more comfortable about going and staying OTJ.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109, +5 78

I just breathed. He was getting a little hyper, so I tested -- and there was that gorgeous green. I have fed him (LC).

Let's scratch insulin off the list. I think this vial is fine.

So now I'm thinking it was the dose. I decreased by a drop too much from .5 to .25, and/or inadvertently drifted to .25 skinny. Or just, as Heather suggested, the dance -- maybe his pancreas thought I was taking his juice away and kicked me in the shins.

Jill -- I'm hoping you were right, that maybe a dose or two will put us on track again. My question now is, what should tonight's dose be? I will test again at +7 (since I just fed him at +5), and at +11.5, so I can post.

Hillary -- thank you. FYI, I stopped using the old-label FF a week ago. I ran out and bought every old-label can I could find. I'm going to try Wellness and Sophisticat next, I think. I want known carb content. Let's hope he likes one of them. And I think for the moment, I'll scratch pain off the list too.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109-Something is wrong

I'm glad to see the green.

I would shoot the same dose you shot this morning, until he earns the reduction again. Better safe than sorry.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109, +5 78-What was wrong?

I have a totally different theory and I may be wrong...I'm probably wrong...

I think Kitty doesn't want to leave Alex since they're just getting to know each other and being the creature of habit that he is, Kitty doesn't want a new condo just yet. He may be happy where is is for a little bit longer. (The boyz do talk after a crazy night out cruizin' chicks...ya know and Alex...well he tells me everything)! :lol:

Nice Green :mrgreen:
xoxo
US

PS Jackson has been waay 'off' (not sick, just 'off') due to a weather change i think and he's not even diabetic...Kitty was obviously, or more than likely, just having a moment (or a few moments) :)
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109, +5 78-What was wrong?

Hi Kathy
Just stopping by to lend support for your disappointment today.
It is so difficult when we just don't know for sure what is going on.
Kitty's ss is remarkable and hoping this "blip" for you guys is just that.
Good luck with the dose and hopefully it will turn around as quickly as it showed up.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, +3 109, +5 78, +7.5 100

Already back in blue. At least he went green during the day. Libby -- yes, I'll hold at .5.

I appreciate all the kind words today. Guess I had my own blip today. Thanks for being there, everyone.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109, +5 78-What was wrong?

((((Kathy))))

You've received all kinds of hugs and good advice today. I just want to give you a hug and to tell you to hang in there. Remember where Kitty was.... not so so long ago. You and Kitty have come a very long way!

Also... I am of those who love to see bedtime tests. :-D
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109, +5 78-What was wrong?

Helene & Tizon said:
((((Kathy))))

You've received all kinds of hugs and good advice today. I just want to give you a hug and to tell you to hang in there. Remember where Kitty was.... not so so long ago. You and Kitty have come a very long way!

Also... I am of those who love to see bedtime tests. :-D
Click to expand...

Thank you, Helene. The suddenness has unravelled me. And BedchecksRUs tonight!!
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, shot.5, +3 109, +5 78-What was wrong?

I'm glad you stopped into our condo today and I'm going to assume that you took a look at Spot's ss...see, anything is possible :-D
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, +3 109, +5 78. +7 100,What is wrong?

" -- he did eat a full can of food last night, everything I left for him."

My little devil sometimes decides to have a sunrise snack on whatever food may be left from the night before. Kitty's AMPs might be simply that.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, +3 109, +5 78. +7 100,What is wrong?

Hey Kathy! It makes me upset to see you so upset--We here have the duty to care for our cats the best we can.
Everyday we wake up early & go to sleep late, just for them & their care--
How many times have I staggered to the kitchen, drew a shot that may have been a teensy tiny minute bit off, & had her numbers change?
A few--How many times did I blame myself for her diabetes, bad teeth, overweight, poor ear, etc etc..? Many!
We all do he very best we can with these babies, we are blessed, & so are they!!!

I also hand feed Moonie every am& pm just to be sure she has something in her!! Now that she is having greens in her ss everyday, & good numbers, she is less hungry--It still makes me worry when she doesnt eat, EVEN KNOWING that a dropping cat Will Eat--I know Moonie will..
So, Dear Kathy, we are all very much alike--You are doing a fantastic job here--as long as it takes..You are doing great--No Regrets GIRL!!
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty AMPS 129, +3 109, +5 78. +7 100,What is wrong?

BTW, Deb, I did look at your spreadsheet, and I have three comments:

1. How do you even MEASURE those doses???
2. You don't sleep, do you?
3. Patience, thy name is Deb!

lol...to answer your questions.....
1) very very carefully. Sometimes it took me five minutes to get the dose correct. I just found a spot on the syringe and tried to keep as close to that spot as I could. I'm sure some days I did .2u when I was supposed to do .3 or .2 for .1....I just tried to be consistent.

2) Yes, I do sleep...about a total of 5 1/2 hrs. a night on a good night! I set the alarm to get up and test at +7 or +8. That really helped me see where he was going since I could only test for amps and then again at +9 when I got home from work. Got the +4 and the +7 during the pm cycle. For what it's worth.....I REALLY look forward to those days when I can go btb after the kitties breffis and get a few more hours of zzzzzzz's.

So, I hope you guys have a great evening and now it's time for me to give everyone their snacks and head off to bed myself.
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty PMPS 93!! Shot .5 - Advice for tomorrow?

I just breathed AGAIN.

I gave the same higher dose -- .5. Still to come, a bedcheck, probably PM +3.

Libby suggested sticking with this dose until Kitty earns the decrease. Jill had said it might take just a dose or two to get Kitty back on track. So I'm not sure what to do next. Suggestions?
 
Re: 3/21 Kitty PM +3 83

Left lots of food. Will try to dream about tomorrow's best dose!

Thank you, everyone, for your support today.
 
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