2/7 Kitten PMPS 199, 0.1u, +2 82, +4 96, +5 140
- Thread starter Catannc
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donnahc
Very Active Member
Re: AMBG +12 189, +12.5 188 stalling
Hi! Got your message, thought it best if I post here.
I am no micro dosing expert at all. Our cat Asher has always been a big gulper kitty, 2-3 units.
That being said, I would think the theory is the same for a low preshot number. You can skip the shot, shoot a token dose or reduced dose (with microdosing that may be hard, I’ll look at your spreadsheet next), or you can wait until the preshot number comes up to your “line in the sand” bg number, a number you would not shoot below. I am assuming since you are just starting out, that number is 200 right now.
189 is darn close to 200. If you can I would wait until your cat comes up to 200 so you can shoot your dose. If that doesn’t mess up your schedule.
If it happens repeatedly, I mean your preshot number is low on a regular basis, you should probably reduce your overall dose.
Hope this is helpful to you. If you have more questions let me know. I’m gonna go get some coffee and I’ll stop back in here in a few minutes.
Hi! Got your message, thought it best if I post here.
I am no micro dosing expert at all. Our cat Asher has always been a big gulper kitty, 2-3 units.
That being said, I would think the theory is the same for a low preshot number. You can skip the shot, shoot a token dose or reduced dose (with microdosing that may be hard, I’ll look at your spreadsheet next), or you can wait until the preshot number comes up to your “line in the sand” bg number, a number you would not shoot below. I am assuming since you are just starting out, that number is 200 right now.
189 is darn close to 200. If you can I would wait until your cat comes up to 200 so you can shoot your dose. If that doesn’t mess up your schedule.
If it happens repeatedly, I mean your preshot number is low on a regular basis, you should probably reduce your overall dose.
Hope this is helpful to you. If you have more questions let me know. I’m gonna go get some coffee and I’ll stop back in here in a few minutes.
Catannc
Active Member
Re: AMBG +12 189, +12.5 188 stalling
Thanks, all I can really do to reduce is shoot the 0 unit line, we're on 0.1u. Her pancreas is coming back online, so it's not just the insulin doing this, we ran NS for a few cycles to see and her 2nd cycle NS was right on curve with her previous ones with insulin on board...so it works but can't sustain long term on it's own yet. Don't really have any shooting guidelines as I haven't needed them...but I know NS under 200.
Cathy
Thanks, all I can really do to reduce is shoot the 0 unit line, we're on 0.1u. Her pancreas is coming back online, so it's not just the insulin doing this, we ran NS for a few cycles to see and her 2nd cycle NS was right on curve with her previous ones with insulin on board...so it works but can't sustain long term on it's own yet. Don't really have any shooting guidelines as I haven't needed them...but I know NS under 200.
Cathy
donnahc
Very Active Member
Re: AMBG +12 189, +12.5 188 stalling
Yes, less than .1 would be hard to draw in a syringe, but I know some folks shoot with a drop of insulin on the end of the needle and that’s it. Again, it is not a familiar thing to me since it hasn’t been our experience. Wish I would be more helpful to you on this one Cathy.
Yes, less than .1 would be hard to draw in a syringe, but I know some folks shoot with a drop of insulin on the end of the needle and that’s it. Again, it is not a familiar thing to me since it hasn’t been our experience. Wish I would be more helpful to you on this one Cathy.
Catannc
Active Member
Re: AMBG +12 189, +12.5 188 stalling
Think I've converted a vet:
"You are becoming quite an expert on feline diabetes and I would not argue with anyone who is this "clued -in" You are monitoring your cat very carefully so I don't think that you would cause any harm. It will be really interesting to see how her pancreas responds.
Who knows, I may start recommending micro doses in some of my patients that are difficult to regulate from now on."
Think I've converted a vet:
"You are becoming quite an expert on feline diabetes and I would not argue with anyone who is this "clued -in" You are monitoring your cat very carefully so I don't think that you would cause any harm. It will be really interesting to see how her pancreas responds.
Who knows, I may start recommending micro doses in some of my patients that are difficult to regulate from now on."
donnahc
Very Active Member
Re: AMBG +12 189, +12.5 188 stalling
That’s really great Cathy! Our vet is impressed too. I think many vets get cat owners with FD cats and all they are willing to do is give a pill or worse yet nothing. My vet last said to me “you should start a FD support group of something” and I just smiled (and laughed out loud inside). I didn’t have the guts to tell him that I am here. He is very supportive of what we do tho and is highly impressed with the spreadsheet. FDMB is indeed a godsend for all of us.
I will see if I can find more info for you on the drop dose thing before I get ready for work. I briefly searched but didn’t find anything yet.
That’s really great Cathy! Our vet is impressed too. I think many vets get cat owners with FD cats and all they are willing to do is give a pill or worse yet nothing. My vet last said to me “you should start a FD support group of something” and I just smiled (and laughed out loud inside). I didn’t have the guts to tell him that I am here. He is very supportive of what we do tho and is highly impressed with the spreadsheet. FDMB is indeed a godsend for all of us.
I will see if I can find more info for you on the drop dose thing before I get ready for work. I briefly searched but didn’t find anything yet.
donnahc
Very Active Member
Re: AMBG +12 189, +12.5 188 stalling
Good on coming up past 200. Here is some info I found. Might want to talk it over with who has been helping you with dosing here:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 24#p360982
This is from the Lev board but I am guessing putting a drop on the end is the same for any insulin.
You might also ask about microdosing on the Health board since it will get more eyes. Ask how people do it and if they can be consistent about how they do it, etc.
No worries Cathy. Happy to hang out anytime
Good on coming up past 200. Here is some info I found. Might want to talk it over with who has been helping you with dosing here:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 24#p360982
This is from the Lev board but I am guessing putting a drop on the end is the same for any insulin.
You might also ask about microdosing on the Health board since it will get more eyes. Ask how people do it and if they can be consistent about how they do it, etc.
No worries Cathy. Happy to hang out anytime
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1u
You set a number that is comfortable for you, Cathy. Some people use 180, some 200, some 170. And then yes, you try to find that number (whether off your 12/12 schedule or not) and, as long as it is rising, shoot your drop. It does not have to be 12/12 - usually it is longer than 12/12 because their duration is longer as the pancreas starts to help.
Assuming Cellos Mom was one of the ones you looked at. She used .25 instead of drops but he did not respond to the insulin as strongly as Kitten is.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApRoVAkSuXuUdDltSnA3ZFVHQ3BUdlNLanJYRkQzSnc#gid=0
Sev was dosing .1 at the end. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AopnX-7vlQSUdExMQmUtalV1ckJFNEREWjRsNDdBaHc#gid=3
Tricky but usually doesn't last too long. You do need to monitor carefully. It is unlikely that they could hypo on a drop of insulin, but Kitten has certainly surprised us before!
You set a number that is comfortable for you, Cathy. Some people use 180, some 200, some 170. And then yes, you try to find that number (whether off your 12/12 schedule or not) and, as long as it is rising, shoot your drop. It does not have to be 12/12 - usually it is longer than 12/12 because their duration is longer as the pancreas starts to help.
Assuming Cellos Mom was one of the ones you looked at. She used .25 instead of drops but he did not respond to the insulin as strongly as Kitten is.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApRoVAkSuXuUdDltSnA3ZFVHQ3BUdlNLanJYRkQzSnc#gid=0
Sev was dosing .1 at the end. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AopnX-7vlQSUdExMQmUtalV1ckJFNEREWjRsNDdBaHc#gid=3
Tricky but usually doesn't last too long. You do need to monitor carefully. It is unlikely that they could hypo on a drop of insulin, but Kitten has certainly surprised us before!
Catannc
Active Member
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1u
Yes, have seen cellosmom and hollyall. Cello looked the closest to Ms. Kitten in terms of response....but I know, ECID, and MCIC (my new acronym: My Cat Is Crazy). I figured the same with the hypo on such a small dose, and last night didn't really worry about it at a +4 of around 100...she's normally stabilizing at +4 and had a ways to go to hit hypo so I just gave her a rest and watched. Then she started running around the house beating the crap out of my Maine Coon, and I figured she was fine. Yes, she can actually run again! It's clunky, but those little midget legs are a-movin.
Yes, have seen cellosmom and hollyall. Cello looked the closest to Ms. Kitten in terms of response....but I know, ECID, and MCIC (my new acronym: My Cat Is Crazy). I figured the same with the hypo on such a small dose, and last night didn't really worry about it at a +4 of around 100...she's normally stabilizing at +4 and had a ways to go to hit hypo so I just gave her a rest and watched. Then she started running around the house beating the crap out of my Maine Coon, and I figured she was fine. Yes, she can actually run again! It's clunky, but those little midget legs are a-movin.
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1u
MCIC - Love it!
MCIC - Love it!
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1u
Hi Cathy,
Just got your message and checking in on your spreadsheet. Looks like you're doing a great job.
I was on PZI and it acts a bit differently so I was microdosing 0.25, 0.5 or 0.75U depending on my cats BG levels. I would shoot above 150 and rising and just made a bit of a sliding scale for the microdosing. I would also shoot as long as it was 8 hours since his last dose, but I don't think it was ever less than 12 hours apart especially once you're at the microdosing point, but I would have been comfortable at 8 hours to try to keep the BGs low. The amounts your at are fine, or even conservative because your cat isn't getting even close to low numbers. I was trying to get my nadirs in the greens, but I was also ok with being aggressive because Cello was very healthy and never showed any signs of hypo or anything even when he was in the 40's.
I think you should see how the 0.1 does, but if he doesn't go down into greens and needs another shot in 12 hours might be worth trying 0.2 if he is above 200.
This was my scale
150-180 I gave the smallest possible I could on a 100U syringe (0.25U) (BUT MAKE SURE # IS RISING AT THESE LEVELS ie. test if he was 160, test an hour later, if he is up, shoot, if he is the same or down don't shoot) - FOr you this dose would probably be 0.1U
180-300 I gave 0.5U - at this level I didn't wait to see if it was going up. For you this would probably be 0.2U
Above 300 I gave 0.75 U - FOr you this would probably be 0.3U
This should be conservative given that you've give 0.5U at 300 and had no issues. You can slide the scale up or down depending on how it goes.
If you have any questions inbox me or post here!
Hi Cathy,
Just got your message and checking in on your spreadsheet. Looks like you're doing a great job.
I was on PZI and it acts a bit differently so I was microdosing 0.25, 0.5 or 0.75U depending on my cats BG levels. I would shoot above 150 and rising and just made a bit of a sliding scale for the microdosing. I would also shoot as long as it was 8 hours since his last dose, but I don't think it was ever less than 12 hours apart especially once you're at the microdosing point, but I would have been comfortable at 8 hours to try to keep the BGs low. The amounts your at are fine, or even conservative because your cat isn't getting even close to low numbers. I was trying to get my nadirs in the greens, but I was also ok with being aggressive because Cello was very healthy and never showed any signs of hypo or anything even when he was in the 40's.
I think you should see how the 0.1 does, but if he doesn't go down into greens and needs another shot in 12 hours might be worth trying 0.2 if he is above 200.
This was my scale
150-180 I gave the smallest possible I could on a 100U syringe (0.25U) (BUT MAKE SURE # IS RISING AT THESE LEVELS ie. test if he was 160, test an hour later, if he is up, shoot, if he is the same or down don't shoot) - FOr you this dose would probably be 0.1U
180-300 I gave 0.5U - at this level I didn't wait to see if it was going up. For you this would probably be 0.2U
Above 300 I gave 0.75 U - FOr you this would probably be 0.3U
This should be conservative given that you've give 0.5U at 300 and had no issues. You can slide the scale up or down depending on how it goes.
If you have any questions inbox me or post here!
Catannc
Active Member
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1u
Thanks! I was just trying to be conservative as you just never know what this cat will do. I agree with those doses if I'm trying to get her in the greens. General consensus from y'all and the vet is the cat is *unlikely* to hypo on micro doses, but MCIC (using it)! So if anyone would like to chime in on whether it's smart to get her down in the greens by giving a little more...even a fat 0.1? Of course we'll see what she does today first.
Don't think I'd go 0.5u again, she's amped up her response since the last time I tried that.
Thanks! I was just trying to be conservative as you just never know what this cat will do. I agree with those doses if I'm trying to get her in the greens. General consensus from y'all and the vet is the cat is *unlikely* to hypo on micro doses, but MCIC (using it)! So if anyone would like to chime in on whether it's smart to get her down in the greens by giving a little more...even a fat 0.1? Of course we'll see what she does today first.
Don't think I'd go 0.5u again, she's amped up her response since the last time I tried that.
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1u
if your cat is on the right diet (all wet, high protein) and otherwise healthy, I think a hypo is incredibly unlikely. Go for the fat 0.1U if you are more comfortable for sure and see what happens (especially if you are home to watch and test), but I honestly wouldn't worry. Cello frequently dipped into the 60's, once into the 40's and once even into the 30's with no symptoms and I never treated him for hypo, just tested asap to make sure he was going up. ECID and you want to be careful, but by the way your cat is responding I think with what you're doing you're probably pretty safe.
if your cat is on the right diet (all wet, high protein) and otherwise healthy, I think a hypo is incredibly unlikely. Go for the fat 0.1U if you are more comfortable for sure and see what happens (especially if you are home to watch and test), but I honestly wouldn't worry. Cello frequently dipped into the 60's, once into the 40's and once even into the 30's with no symptoms and I never treated him for hypo, just tested asap to make sure he was going up. ECID and you want to be careful, but by the way your cat is responding I think with what you're doing you're probably pretty safe.
Catannc
Active Member
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1u
Yep, eats only semi-raw diet and healthy other than her liver being a little off on her tests 30 days ago, but presumably because of the diabetes. Only other health issue is she is badly in need of a dental appt for tartar, but vet wanted to wait until she was stable to tackle that.
Yep, eats only semi-raw diet and healthy other than her liver being a little off on her tests 30 days ago, but presumably because of the diabetes. Only other health issue is she is badly in need of a dental appt for tartar, but vet wanted to wait until she was stable to tackle that.
Catannc
Active Member
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1u
Wow, she is spot on this cycle vs last night's cycle. +4 103, I think I'll be around for +5 cause I'd like to know what's happening. Thinking I'll need to just shoot on a rising 180ish with the same dose (skinny 0.1), I imagine if she hadn't been 254 this morning she would be green by now.
Wow, she is spot on this cycle vs last night's cycle. +4 103, I think I'll be around for +5 cause I'd like to know what's happening. Thinking I'll need to just shoot on a rising 180ish with the same dose (skinny 0.1), I imagine if she hadn't been 254 this morning she would be green by now.
Rob & Harley (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Kitten AMBG 189, +12.5 188, +13: AMPS 254. 0.1 u, +5 97!
Beautiful!!
Beautiful!!
Ginny & Alex
Very Active Member
Re: Kitten AMBG +12.5 188, AMPS(+13) 254. 0.1 u, +5 97, +8 1
Looking very nice, Kitten!
Looking very nice, Kitten!
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