2/25 larry AMPS 591 +2 289 +7 1/2 400

Status
Not open for further replies.
IloveLarry

IloveLarry

Very Active Member
we started lantus last wed. am.
sunday am we went up to 1.5 u.

does any1 feel i should go up to 2. U tomorrow? or wait until i see AMPS? wait "x" amount of time? i am just asking. thats all. thanks for ur suggestions.
 
Re: 2/25 larry AMPS 591 +2 289 +7 1/2 400...opinions plz?

You're using Lantus, he needs at minimum 6-10 cycles to adjust to the dose. Some cats need even longer.

Hold the dose for 3-5 days, get plenty of midcycle tests and then someone here can steer you the right direction for dosing.

You do not want to change the dose now.
 
Re: 2/25 larry AMPS 591 +2 289 +7 1/2 400...opinions plz?

And a cycle, for anyone reading who doesn't know, is from one shot to the next, so if you are giving shots every 12 hours, one day has 2 cycles
 
Okay Deb and Linda covered the high points so let me explain in depth.

First and foremost with Lantus you need patience. This is not a sprint its a marathon. Larry didn't become a diabetic overnight and he's not going to be cured overnight either. In fact he'll never be cured he may at some point stop needing insulin and become a diet controlled but he will always be diabetic.


Second you need to understand what insulin is and is not. Insulin is not a drug like say a narcotic pain killer where the greater the pain the more pain killer you use. It is a hormone and a very powerful one at that. But because it is something that should be naturally occurring in his body and for whatever reason it's not his body has a natural check and balance system in place.

Since he was more than likely diabetic long before he showed any signs he was sick his body got use to running in those reds and blacks and that now makes it think when he hits even pink or yellow which he hasn't seen in awhile that he is dropping into unsafe levels so his liver sends out stored sugars and counter-regulatory hormones which shoots him back up.

I'm going to use my Autumn as an example. Now Autumn has been doing this for awhile she's an insulin dependent and probably will be for life. Now while she's very well regulated and has been for awhile. Last night she went down to 38 and then today down to 40. So she did what is called bouncing so she shot up to 348 tonight. Now in her case it isn't because her body isn't use to green numbers. Its because her pancreas is sputtering in that sometimes it works and other times it doesn't.

But she's a good example of what a bounce looks like.

Now with Lantus all your preshots tell you is if its safe to give insulin in the first place. All dose changes are based off the nadir or lowest point in the cycle. Now with most cats on Lantus that's around +6 but not always every cat is different some will nadir earlier others later.

The two important points right now to find in Larry's cycle is onset or when the dose starts to drop his BGs and his nadir. Most Lantus curves are a smiley face. +1 slightly higher than preshot because it has a food influencing it
+2 about the same as preshot
+3 should start the slow slide down to nadir
+6 lowest point
Then +7 to next preshot a slow rise again

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
ok, thanks.
i just wondered what was best for him. he is 16 lbs. so according to the formula, the 1U was very conservative...which is good :) didnt wanna harm him. plus, maybe we would, or will, get lucky and thats all he would need.
so ur saying, wait 3 more days b4 considering a dose increase?
 
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. Then when you have a full 12 hours to test before you raise his dose you'll want to run a curve where you test every two hours between one shot to the next and base your dose change on the lowest point in that curve.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
One thing you are definately doing right is to ask on here before you make any changes in dose. Until you wrap your brain around what Lantus does, and how it acts, you cant make these decisions on your own.
 
well i am glad i am doing 1 thing right. thank God :)
the other day we went up after 3 days, so it does get confusing for sure. e before i, except after c...and so forth.
night/farewell.
bad day is over.
 
It gets very confusing at first because of that thing I explained earlier called bouncing which is where those high numbers you saw today came from. He went lower than he'd seen in awhile yesterday then dropped really fast today that caused him to bounce. Bounces can take upto 72 hours to clear every bounce resets the clock on how long the dose has been held. Because you don't count the days they are clearing the bounce. So since he's in a bounce right now today doesn't count. Now if he goes back fairly flat again tomorrow and stays that way for 3 days then he gets another dose increase.

I know it seems very complicated but once your a few months in it really is fairly easy.

Mel
 
Tomorrow is another day. It can be tough being patient and confusing when the numbers don't do what we expect. I also noticed on your spreadsheet you mentioned having difficulty getting Larry to cooperate. Try not to get too discouraged. Mel is right that it's a marathon and not a sprint. Keep at it and keep asking questions. My Max was a total bear to test and sometimes to shoot. Eventually, over a couple months, he has gotten used to the routine, although he will still have his moods sometimes. Yesterday, he walked over to his testing area and waited for treats, even though he had already had his test earlier. You'll get more comfortable with what you're doing and Larry will hopefully too. By the way, I like your pic of Larry in your avatar. He's a cute bright-eyed tabby.
 
Pam you are doing a great job! You are attentive with gaining and using the knowledge you are getting here. Hopefully Larry and you will figure out what is your best routine whether it includes treats or brushing, positioning, a regular testing spot, singing, holding, coercing, bribing (my sugar knows he won't get breakfast or dinner until after the test and shoot event).

I think we may be better prepared to suggest a dosage increase if we could see more mid-cycle tests. While I don't get to test at mid-cycle except on the weekend, I absolutely wouldn't adjust dosage for my cat without seeing a +5 or +6 because that's where his nadir seems to be.

Larry is still getting used to the insulin and like Mel said, it's not a sprint. The first two weeks are the most difficult in getting used to new routines and watching the clock and learning about how insulin works in your sugarcat. It all settles down eventually.

Hang in there! We are reading your condos.
 
thank u for the kind words and encouragement. its been 7 wks and i have nvr had a night like last night. trying not to be nervous. he was jumping at being touched. what do u do if they wont let u touch them for a shot? i never expected it. i am exhausted myself, and dont feel well. many health issues, like fibromyalgia, arthritis, chronic fatigue, to name a few. i am doing my best. i love my babies :)
 
Pam

We also call this the Sugar Dance for a reason. In the beginning just like learning any new dance you feel clumsy, you swear you have two left feet, you trip, you step on your partner's toes, you forget steps or get the order wrong and even fall on your hiney. But you break the dance down into steps and practice those steps over and over again until one day the music starts, your partner stretches out his hand/paw to you and you find you're gracefully gliding across the dance floor in perfect time with each other.

Now what makes this dance difficult is only Larry can hear the music your dancing to. We don't lead in this dance we let them lead and step to their music. Some cats Tango, some cats waltz, some cats Salsa and some like my Maxwell just decide he's not a dancer and quickly goes OTJ.

We can teach you the steps to the dance, but only Larry can teach you the music. Right now not only are you learning the steps to the dance but you're learning your dance partner. And I can tell you after having 5 sugarcats of my own no two dance to the same music. And some don't even dance to the same music every day.

But regardless how close you and Larry are now your bond is going to deepen and strengthen. And you're going to learn more about these incredible fascinating feline creatures than years of being a cat owner will ever teach you and every other cat from here on out will benefit.

I've owned cats all my life, my mother bred and showed Himmies and Persians. But my first diabetic taught me more in the short time she was with me before cancer took her than 50 years of cat ownership.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
:) well we finally got blood. idk why its been hard for me the last few days again. i had to just pierce his ear. poor cat. huge blood drop. this is all so physically challenging for me. all the fine motor movements, with my eyes, and hands, the eye-hand coordination, and all. most of the difficulty is my body not cooperating. some is larry not cooperating. i pray he allows the shot easy today. it seems we r going backwards sometimes. this is more what i would expect if it were new to me. not 7 wks. in.
 
Somedays like that you just let it go and go lick your wounds and come back later to try again. With some its two steps forward and one back.

Look at this from Larry's perspective. He feels lousy, and now mom is poking his ears and sticking him with things. And all upset because of something he doesn't understand and might even be his fault but he doesn't know what he did wrong.

He loves you and wants to please you but this is all confusing to him. As ridiculous as this sounds talk to him. Tell him what your doing and why. But do it in a happy cheerful voice. Not only does it help you remember the steps he'll pick up on your vibe. If you're happy and relaxed he will become happy and relaxed.

I even make up silly songs for mine. With Cassanova since he's new to the family his song goes like this :

Oh I'm a big orange guy, people think I'm tough
But I'm really just an extra sweet guy so I get a stick in my ruff. My ears get poked but never pierced cuz earrings just aren't my thing.

Its silly but its hard to be upset when being silly.

Mel
 
I know sweetie I have fibro too, I also had a brown recluse bite cripple my right thumb a couple years ago and I'm right handed. Which is one of the reasons I don't tent. I grab a chunk of skin, lift and stick.

What size needles are you using? Part of the problem could be either the needle length or gauge. Autumn will take a chunk out of me if I use a long needle but a short she doesn't even look up from her food dish.

Mel
 
now i am shaking all over. i know what u mean but we have been at this 7 wks. and now its really hard. short needle 31, and only 2 left then 30s. i dont wanna go up in size whn hes freaking out abt these, but theyre donated. i dont hv money to buy anymore right now. he is freaking out over 31 anyway, so i dont think it would matter.
i always sing to him, and talk to him. somethings going on. hes different. something changed.
 
Well you're 7 weeks into treating a diabetic cat but a week into treating with Lantus. He's starting to feel better because he's off the roller coaster ride of that nasty N. He feels different yes still higher than we'd like him to be but steadier except for yesterday where he was bouncing like a rubber ball. That fast up and down feels yukky. But he got use to it just like before you knew he was sick he got use to being high all the time. Now he has to relearn what it feels like to be stable. Cats Hate Change!! Dogs are go with the flow creatures not so with cats.

My Cassanova was the same way, he was a pill. When I adopted him he'd been diabetic over a year but his previous owner was not testing and giving him 11u twice a day, he was bouncing all over the place most likely. My only advantage was I've been doing this a long time so I would go in with confidence and not let him give me any tude. The first couple months I would literally sit on the floor with him and pin him with my legs to the floor with one arm around his neck and chest. He caught on very quickly he could pitch as big a fit as he wanted but I was going to do what needed done. When he stopped struggling he got treats and cuddles if he fought me he got nothing but the shot.

He's still an 8 second ride to test but not because he's fighting me but because he's so busy rubbing and head butting and kissing me.

The other key is not allow yourself to become so focused on treating the disease you forget the cat. Larry is still Larry he's just extra sweet. Remember to spend time with him that has nothing to do with treating his diabetes. Pure cuddle time is worth its wait in gold.

Mel
 
ok, thats helpful. an 8 second ride? what do u mean?
yes, i know abt remembering him as a cat. sadly i hv almost forgotten my precious dog and the other cats some. hard not to focus on the sick/treatment. we hv had precious moments, larry and me. i have posted a lot of them. they were so touching.
yea, he is getting so wild! he hasnt been like this since he was abt a yr. old. he is so agressively playful now he makes his kitty sister/wife scream! he attacks and plays so rough. hes a big teddy bear, but hes all boy. at 16 lbs. he is a wild buck now that he feels well, and then back to a cuddly teddy bear. i did not realize his full submission had been due to his illness. he was SO docile b4 insulin. i thot that was just his aging/purrsonality.
i need a plan how i can do this tonight so i feel confident and can get things back on track b4 his acting out becomes routine, and we both dread every shot. food isnt working, so not sure what to do.i tried brushing, and petting. maybe pull out the big gun tuna? in desperation? not sure it would work, but i need him to learn to be cooperative again. i dont understand why he jumps at the shot? those cats in the video dont evn feel it? why is he being so sensitive to the tiniest needle they make?
 
Lol. 8 second ride is a bull riding term. I'm a countrygirl. A bull rider has to stay on the bull for 8 seconds to ride clean and go on to the next round of competition.

Cassanova is 26lbs now down from 37lbs when I got him and he's only 8 years old so yep he's a BIG all boy. Maxwell is a lean 17 lbs and Autumn is a slim 14lbs.

If it takes tuna then tuna it is. But only if he's good. With Cassanova it was sardines. I'd dump them in a tuperware container with a lid. I'd open the lid let him smell them then close it and set it out of his reach. If he sat quietly he got a piece if not he got nada. And we practiced the coming to the testing spot and sitting nicely for a treat several times a day that had nothing to do with a test or shot. First it was just come when called...treat. then come when called, jump on testing spot ...treat and so on.

Mel
 
And also, Lantus is a bit acidic, and can sting a bit. I also have to watch my technique.. the shots are easy, but i find that when Sammy is being a hag about testing, I tend to get rushed and Poke, rather than insert the lancet. Makes a huge difference in whether she feels it or not.

Attitude training helps a lot. I take a regular ballpoint pen and occasionally mimic the process... she feels a tiny touch, but no pain. If she is good, she gets a treat.
 
lean at 14 lbs? wow. larry needs to be at 11. 1 thing at a time, tho.
i tried to quote, linda, but didnt work.
what do u mean u tend to poke instead? linda? r u saying thats good or bad?
larry is so unpredictable. poor patient thing sat thru a lot of failed attempts at blood this morning, then went ape over the shot. i have got to find something. the problem with tuna is if i start it i will nvr be able to stop, i bet! he wasnt having it. he would have rather not eaten than had that shot. once the shot was over, he ate well, and fine.
i am worn out but i have to figure out something to make tonight bearable for us.
mel, i am trying to figure out how u get a cat to sit still for food? the food makes mine all turn into pirrahnas at a feeding frenzy. "calm" does not apply related to food.
 
Training a cat is really no different than training any other animal it doesn't happen overnight. It takes patience and repetition. I use a clicker which you can find at most pet stores in the dog training supplies. First you do what's called priming. You click and give the treat. You keep doing that until when you click they automatically look for the treat. Then you're ready to start training action with word command. Like for testing...find kitty, carry to testing spot and set them where you want to test. Say the command, click and hand over treat. For Maxwell the word is ears. So when I started with him I'd put him on his testing blanket, tell him Ears, click and give the treat. Once he started looking for his treat the minute I said Ears while he was sitting on his blanket. I moved to putting out his blanket but not carrying him to it. I'd say Ears and if he even looked my direction..click and treat. Then it went to he had to take a step toward me before he got the click and treat. Then step on the blanket before the click and treat etc until now all I have to do is yell Ears and he comes at a trot, sits on his spot and waits for his test.

Mel
 
wow, yea, that would be great if one had the energy/time.
my dog is the most trainable creature i have ever seen. she will do ANYthing for food. i havent found a thing she cant be taught. she has taught me new tricks. like she makes up things to do for food. hilarious. her problem is, in desperation, she does it all. sometimes all at once or combos. she will partly beg, shake, then a quick stand, hop, then a shake while standing. she runs the whole gamut and quickly to get something. she is so spoiled.
anyway. larrys ear looks awful :( there is blood spatter on the carpet. i did bad today.
another question. how can u get that gray gook out of the inside of the ear? the vet used alcohol on cotton and got some of the outer part off, but the deeper u look, the dirtier it is.
 
Well for years I trained horses professionally as well as dogs. So just applied the same techniques to cats. Plus I had a great friend whose uncle trained wild animals for movies and he taught me a lot. Most of it is breaking it down into no fail steps. My dog is only trained if food is involved. He's the best trained dog in the world if I'm holding a treat if not he's completely deaf lol but that's his breeding he's Chow Chow/German Shepherd/Lab and wolf stubborn and too smart for his own good.

I really don't know on the ears. Mine all pretty much keep each others clean. I know they make stuff to clean ears just never used it then again I don't trim nails either. My cats are all natural lol

Mel
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top