2/21 Felix (newbie to Lantus forum) PMPS 351

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Jenner & Felix

Jenner & Felix

Member Since 2011
Felix, .5u Lantus, started 2.11.11.

We currently feed Friskies wet & are transitioning to (off) M/D kibble at bed-time only.

We normally post on the FDMB, but are looking for help with dosage increase advice.

After convincing our vet we wanted to increase to 1.5u on the 20th, Felix's BG dropped 100 pts & I got scared and have only given him 1u the past three cycles.

Is increasing to 1.5u a safe choice? and did I hurt him by dropping back down to 1u after an AMPS 1.5u given the previous cycle?

any help is greatly appreciated! :>)
Felix's mom-Jenner
 
hi, guys...welcome!

there are plenty of really experienced folks here that can help with the dosing questions...

celi & binks
 
Welcome to Lantus Land. It is a great group here.

I am not one of the ones that provides dosing advice. I know its based on a protocol that has a lot of success in getting cats off of insulin and into remission.

I am confused reading your post though. You are trying to get felix OFF of dry food right? Not transitioning him into eating Kibble?
 
yup, trying to get him off kibble. He really isn't a member of the clean plate club-more of a "soup" eater. There are days I worry he isn't eating enough because he's frustrated with not getting enough lapped up. Its like he can't figure out how to eat the wet. We take it day by day.
 
Maverick was a soup eater too. Took him months to eat enough wet food on his own. Watch Felix carefully though. When the carbs aren't fed - say in the daytime, there can be a huge drop in blood glucose readings from lack of carbs from the kibble.

I know you came for dosing advice but I can give you some ideas based on what helped Maverick.

He is an EXTREMELY picky eater. He ended up consistently liking Walmart Special Kitty (small cans) Turkey and Giblet.
Soupy/runnier than a milkshake at first.
The plate made a difference in getting him to eat consistently. He hated deep bowls so we found a shallow oval shaped bowl with low sides which helped a ton.
We kept trying to get him to eat wet food with less water but this was a fail every time. We tried mounding it high, smushing it with a fork, warming it, putting it out just in a solid blob right from the can. One day I put it on a saucer and cut it up into bite sized pieces with a fork and low and behold he ate it. We still left the soup out in case he wanted it. Maverick is a wetfood grazer. He never eats more than 1/2 oz at a sitting so we leave food out for him all of the time.
And when I need him to eat and he doesn't want to I sprinkle chicken dust on the top and reapply. Smooshing it into the top of the food a bit with a fork so that he can't just lick it off. If your cat doesn't have kidney problems this might help once he gets used to the texture of chewing wet food. Its pure freeze dried chicken (pure bites) that we get in the dogfood seciton of petsmart. You crumble it into a fine dust. I put some in the magic bullet blender so that I can use a bit less.
 
thanks for the food hints-your post reads alot like what we do to entice enough eating. I worry about how long to leave wet food out. Both have been kibble grazers and we are trying to mimic that with wet in small meals. Bed-time feeding worries me cuz they tend to eat the most after we go to bed. I'm not sure how much to leave out.
 
Hi Jenner & Felix and welcome! I'm bumping up your post so that it will be nearer to the top of the list. I suggest that you add "need dose advice" or something similar to your subject line so as to get more experienced eyes on your condo.
Good luck, and good luck with your feeding, too!

Ella & Rusty
 
Welcome to Lantus Land.

Since no one has said this yet, please read the starred, sticky notes at the top of the Board. There is an overwhelming amount of information in each of these notes.
  • Tight Regulation Protocol: This sticky contains the dosing protocol that we use here. There are also links to the more formal versions -- the Tilly Protocol developed by the counterpart of this group in German and the Queensland/Rand protocol developed by Jacqui Rand, DVM and published in one of the top vet journals.
  • New to the Group: Everything you wanted to know about this forum and more. Info on our slang, FAQs, links to sites on feline nutrition and to food charts containing carb counts, how to do a curve and the components to look for, important aspects of diabetes such as ketones, DKA, and neuropathy, and most important, info on hypoglycemia.
  • Handling Lantus: how to get the maximum use from your insulin and what to not do with it!
  • Lantus depot/shed: This is an important concept for understanding how Lantus works.
  • Becoming Data Ready: What data you need in order to be able to work toward remission or tight regulation.

Since you have some immediate questions about about dose, please take a look at the sticky on the Tight Regulation Protocol. That's the method we use to guide our dosing decisions. Typically, doses are increased/decreased in 0.25u amounts. If you've not already purchased them, it will be much easier if you have syringes that are marked in 0.25u 0.5u increments. (Thanks Ella!)

I'd also like to encourage you to get at least a test in the evening before you go to bed. Many cats have lower BG numbers in the evening cycle. In addition, you are missing half of your data if you don't get any PM tests. Since Lantus dosing is based on the lowest point in the cycle (the nadir) and not on the pre-shot values, spot checks during both the AM and PM cycles are important.

At this point, I would suggest getting a test or two this evening. If there are no big surprises, I think you're safe to increase Felix's dose to 1.25u tomorrow.

Please ask questions. The people here are very generous with their information and their time. Also, please visit our condos (it's what we call our threads -- one condo, per cat, per day) and look at our spreadsheets. It's a great way to learn.
 
Hi again, Great advice from Sienne. But she has a typo in her sentence on which syringes to buy: you should look for ones that are marked with 0.5-unit increments (alas, they don't make them in increments smaller than a half unit)!

Have a good evening, and welcome, again.

Ella & Rusty

p.s. When editing a subject line you have to go back to your very first post of the day and make your changes there. Otherwise the revised heading will not appear in the list and you might not get the help you need.
 
Re: 2/21 Felix PMPS 351- Need Dose Advice

Any spreadsheet info I've been able to collect is based on what I've been reading on the site.

Our vet doesn't have any other patient who home tests and has a very 'by the book" way of treating diabetes in cats. Once she found out we were home testing, she only asked for us to test AMPS /PMPS. We have not tested past the +11.75- we currently give 1u at 7:45 am./p.m. and feed the last wet meal at 10:00 p.m.

We are very over-whelmed in this new schedule and just want to do our best to help Felix get better.
 
I leave food out all night. When I get up to test in the night I can see how much has been eaten and can put out more. Maverick eats twice as much over night as he does in the daytime. Some people use autofeeders that open up and put frozen little packets under the food. Petsafe feeders I believe. Maverick never eats a lot in one setting and he doesn't eat on my schedule so I have to leave it out to ensure he eats enough. You know your cat though and what will work for them.
 
Welcome Jennifer and Felix!! You will find lots of people anxious to help and lots of info here in LL! Glad you've found us.

As Sienne started, we each start one condo every day. Looks like you already have the hang of it because you have the essential info in your subject line. As Ella said, as you test, then go back to your original condo for that day, reopen it and go to the very FIRST post of the day, click on "edit" and add your new test number, then click "submit". If you then want to add some text, reopen it and hit "post reply". So tomorrow morning, your condo would look like this (#s are just examples):
2/22 Felix AMPS 351
As you add tests, it will look like this: 2/22 Felix AMPS 351 +2 340 +4 300
At night, go back into the same condo, open it up, go to the FIRST post of the day, click in the subject line and delete all the morning stuff and start over with the evening info so it would look like this:
2/22 Felix PMPS 351
and so on. Hope that helps. Also, each day, we link the condo from the day before and put it in the first text box of the day. So, tomorrow, go to "view your posts", open up today's condo, right click on the browser and copy that address, close the condo, open your new condo, and paste in the link you copied. Then write what we call a "WCR"..well cat report. We usually discuss it in terms of the 5Ps: purring, pooping, playing, peeing, and preening. Then we know how all is going with Felix.

Let us know if you have any questions...lots of info today so don't be afraid to ask us again how to do something.
 
Hi again, Yes, it is overwhelming at first, but it does get better. Just do the best you can. Read the "stickies" and don't think that you are going to remember everything on the first reading!!!!! Ask as many questions as you need. Someone will always be along to help you. This is a compassionate group and there are many knowledgeable people here to advise and assist.
We all want the best for Felix.

Ella & Rusty

p.s. The CatMate C 20 two-compartment feeder comes with a cold block that fits under the food trays. It works very well.
 
I have no good explanation for most vets perspective on home testing. We've had vets berate people for testing too much. In fact, one vet accused someone of Munchausen by proxy. It was nuts. They seem to think that by testing, we're stressing our cats. I'm sure any number of people will tell you how their cats go running to the testing spot, purr, lay down and patiently wait, etc. We are very good about providing positive reinforcement with treats, food, and/or affection and praise for their allowing us to test. Our kitties are anything but stressed.

Your vet's recommendation to test only at AMPS and PMPS does not make sense if she prescribed Lantus. Lantus dosing is not based on pre-shot numbers. Unless she is planning on running fructosamine tests or having you come in to get a curve at the office -- all of which is very old school -- you will have no way of accurately knowing what Felix's nadir is. Curves at the vet's office are highly influenced by vet stress and others can tell you how their vet made a dose change based on an in-office curve that overdosed their cat. Fructosamine levels will not give you what the nadir is. By home testing, you are saving a bundle on vet bills and taking charge of Felix's diabetes management.

You need to get spot checks in order to make decisions about how Lantus is dosed. What you don't need to do is tell your vet how much you're testing. FWIW, my vet tells me I test too much, too. I nod, smile, and laugh. I have a cat who's a bit of a drama queen. The reason I test the way I do is because the data I collected informs my decisions about how and when to test.

Right now, it is perfectly normal to feel completely overwhelmed. We've all been there. You've found an incredible community of people who will give you as much help and guidance as you need. We'll try to not add to your feeling swamped. (We do tend to give a lot of info all at once. Sorry!) Just let us know how we can help.
 
You are in the best hands possible.

It has been 3 weeks since my cat was diagnosed and I would have gone completely insane if it wasn't for this incredible group of people. Read over things and little by little it will get a little (or a lot ;-) ) easier.
 
Just wanted to say welcome Felix and Jenner! I'm not going to offer dosing advise, just a welcome and and some encouragment. Everyone one here has been so very helpful. The best advise I receive here was "trust yourself and you don't need your vet's permission to test, just do it!"
 
Just wanted to say welcome Felix and Jenner! I'm not going to offer dosing advise, just a welcome and and some encouragment. Everyone one here has been so very helpful. The best advise I receive here was "trust yourself and you don't need your vet's permission to test, just do it!"
 
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