2/19 Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

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Kathleen and Fred

Kathleen and Fred

Member Since 2009
Fred completed all 5 "P's....pooped, peed, preened, purred, and played with his ball! Also gobbled up 2oz of FF/friskies breakfast before going out on a short stroll to see if the birds are up yet. Now it's nap time.
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

This AMPS # is not a bad one, and he's starting to show you a tiny bit of green, too. If after some time he doesn't bring those PS #s down, you may want to try Lantus and see if that helps. ProZinc, unfortunately, doesn't last as long as Lantus does. Good luck!
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

What sort of numbers should I be looking at and for how long before we consider making the switch to Lantus? Can I use u-100 needles? Still early days with this " bouncing". Thanks
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

Welcome, Kathleen!

You can switch to Lantus at any time. There isn't any particular number or curve that is necessary to make the switch.

I'm a little confused, though. Prozinc is a U40 insulin and you should be using U40 syringes. Lantus is a U100 insulin (more concentrated) and requires U100 syringes. Given the note in your subject line, could you explain what you meant?
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

Sienne's right about the use of the syringes with the ProZinc. You need to be using the correct ones, which are the U40, instead of the U100, which are used with Lantus.

And she's also right about switching to Lantus at any time. If you decide to switch, it'll be interesting to see what he does. :-D
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc); +3=260

Several years ago I got a conversion chart from this site. It shows the number of units for U-40 and the corresponding amounts for U-100. I've been using the U-100s for nearly 3 years because I can do smaller increment doses if needed. We have been rocking along just fine this past week when everything fell apart.

Maybe someone can show you where to find that chart. I just printed it out so I could always have it whenI shoot. Plus I. An get the 7-100 needles at Walmart for pennies.

Thanks for the Lantus advice. Will need more info before I switch, I think
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

Hi guys .. sounds like Fred is having a pretty good morning .. Good luck with the switch to lantus when/if you decide to take it .. have a great day guys!
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

Kathleen,

I just want to make sure...
When your SS dose says "2.5u", is that the actual amount of prozinc you are shooting? Or is that what the U100 syringe reads?

I'm familiar with the practice of using the U100s with a U40 insulin and the conversion chart, but want to be certain about the numbers on your spreadsheet.

Carl
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

I'm familiar with the chart. I just wanted to be sure you were on top of things since we've had folks end up using U40 syringes with Lantus. If you're not already doing so, you may want to get syringes that are marked in half unit increments.

The other thing that would be helpful is if you could put Fred's date of diagnosis in your signature line and/or complete a Profile for him that you would link in your signature. We tend to assume that anyone new to Lantus Land (LL) has a newly diagnosed kitty. Some of the parameters for when to take a decrease are different for a cat that is more than a year past diagnosis so it's important to know when Fred was diagnosed.
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

I will update the profile later. Fred was dx 12/29/09. only on Prozinc. I load needle to 2.5u (has half unit marks).
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

Okay, awesome, thank you for the clarification.
So the actual dose of prozinc is 1u, not 2.5u. That will matter when folks look at your numbers.

The best thing you could do to remove confusion is to enter the dose on your SS as if you are using U40 needles, and just add a note to your signature that says "using U 40 Prozinc with U100 syringes and the conversion chart". Or words to that effect.
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

But switching to the other numbers in mid stream may be just as confusing. I'll put a note that I'm using the conversion for u-100 needles and see if that clears things up. Thanks
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

hi kathleen! just want to welcome you and Fred to LL!

i'm one of the ones who started with ProZinc and u-40 syringes and then switched to Lantus and the vet never told me to change to u-100 syringes. fortunately the folks here caught it, and probably also fortunately, punkin had acromegaly and survived the mistake of getting 2.5 times as much insulin as we thought. i'm glad that wasn't your situation!

Fred's ss looks pretty good. Did you have a different spreadsheet before the start of this one?

There are a couple of big differences between using Prozinc and Lantus - one is that we rarely adjust the dose based upon the preshot, but rather on the nadir (lowest point of the cycle.) Another is that Lantus is a depot insulin - so it builds up in the body and sort of slow releases. That's part of what helps flatten out the cycles, which is so good for cats.

Glad to have you here! when you're ready to switch, give a holler! I'm sure you'll have more questions and we'll do our best to help you learn what you need to know. :-D
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (see note on SS)

When should I start considering Lantus - just coming off that bounce. And how should I approach my vet about the switch?
It would be great to have his numbers even out, and I'm already used to the u-100 needles. Not sure of my direction just now.

This is my first official spreadsheet. I had been doing monthly test days and recording for my records and my vet on excel sheets. That's why I put in that first entry from January because it's all the data I could send. The numbers in the last few days have been pretty much what I've seen in the past....mostly low to mid 200's. The bounce was a shock and a worry especially after losing "Lucy-Fur" last Wednesday. Obviously affected Fred!

I could lower the dose to 2.0 for a while and see what happens. Also, I'd like to get Fred down to 14 lbs in this next year. He's very big boned and tall, but I wonder if his numbers would improve with less weight. He was once 18 lbs, but the numbers were about the same.

Appreciate your thoughts.
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

i don't think the timing matters - whenever you want to. just know that you'll be giving a smaller Lantus dose - something like 1 unit, as Carl suggested. I think you'll have to be very aware of this because someone might very well suggest a different amount of Lantus assuming that you're talking about "regular" Prozinc doses, which would be using the u-40 syringe numbers.

i can't advise on dosing with Prozinc. When I was using it i didn't know anything about FD or ProZinc, and wasn't home-testing. Perhaps Carl can suggest what you should do at the moment. But i don't think you need to get things (his BGs or weight) under control or anything like that before you make a switch.

It would be good to read the yellow starred stickies at the top of this forum. Especially read the one Lantus and Levemir: Info, Proper Handling and Storage and watch the video on that page about how to draw your insulin out of the pen or the vial. At Fred's dose, you probably want a prescription for pens. the prescriptions for vials and pens are separate. You'll want to call around to pharmacies to find one that will break up a box and sell you just one pen. Some will but there's no rhyme or reason to it. you just have to call around. some big pharmacies will, some local independent ones.

You'll probably also appreciate getting the Lantus savings card for the pens: http://www.lantus.com/sign-up/offers. Fred will need to have your last name and just fyi, he's over 18. ;-)

Just let your vet know that you'd like to make the switch to Lantus because you understand it lasts longer in a cat's body and can flatten out their numbers. Cats seem to feel better when their BGs are flat. Here's the link to the Tight Regulation Protocol - go down about 4 "paragraphs" and download and print out the pdf "Management of Diabetic Cats" for your vet. it will provide the support you need to justify switching from ProZinc to Lantus or Levemir. Both are very good and either would work well for you.
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

Kathleen,
In general, the numbers are really not awful, IMHO, given the dose of Prozinc you're using. It looks like for the most part, you are getting a little over 100 points of drop on 1u, and a bit more on 1.2u (2.5u and 3u on the SS). The nadirs show Fred has a little room to drop further, so you might think about a .2 or .4 unit increase if you can test around nadir to see how low it goes.

I wouldn't worry about the one cycle that looks like a bounce. I like to keep something I saw Dr. Lisa post in PZI a couple years ago - look for "repeatabiltiy" before making an important decision like dose adjustments." Don't base decisions on one-offs (unless of course that one time think is a really low number that screams "reduce!"). If you see a pattern of bounces, then it might make sense to change something. But I tend to try to ignore bounces unless I see a really low number that looks to be the reason for the highs that follow. Sometimes there's no good explanation for the bounce. Just a wonky day or a wonky number that sticks out like a sore thumb because it's the only red number on the spreadsheet.

FWIW, I used compounded PZI with Bob, which isn't exactly the same as today's Prozinc, but it's pretty close.

Carl
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

When using U-100 syringes with a U-40 insulin, each U-100 half unit mark = 0.2 units of the U-40 insulin.

Here's the math:
U-100
mark * 0.4 = U-40 dose
0.5 * 0.4 = 0.2
1.0 * 0.4 = 0.4
1.5 * 0.4 = 0.6
2.0 * 0.4 = 0.8
2.5 * 0.4 = 1.0
 
2/20 Fred: 398=AMPS (2.5u-See note on SS)

Yep...that's the conversion chart I use.

Need to do some research on Lantus before seeing vet next week. Here are some questions:
1. Does it come in a vile like Prozinc?
2. Are the pens loaded for several doses? How many can you get at a time?
3. If using needles, can I continue to use the u-100s with the conversion chart?
4. Is there any reaction (side effects) from the switch....getting used to new meds?
5. Is Lantus and the pens, more expensive than ProZinc? Just started a new bottle of PZ.

Thanks
 
Re: 2/20 Fred: 398=AMPS (2.5u-See note on SS)

Kathleen and Fred said:
1. Does it come in a vial like Prozinc?
Click to expand...
Yes, although you may not go through 1 vial before it starts losing potentency. We suggest using pens for most cats. Exceptions to this would be cats with high dose insulin use, such as acromegaly.
Kathleen and Fred said:
2. Are the pens loaded for several doses? How many can you get at a time?
Click to expand...
Treat a pen like a mini vial of 3 mL (300 units) and use a U-100 syringe to take out the insulin. They come in 5 packs, although if you hunt around, you may find a place which sells them individually.
Kathleen and Fred said:
3. If using needles, can I continue to use the u-100s with the conversion chart?
Click to expand...
No conversion chart needed; the mark on the U-100 syringe is the dose.
Kathleen and Fred said:
4. Is there any reaction (side effects) from the switch....getting used to new meds?
Click to expand...
Lantus has a lightly acidic pH; it may sting, generally if using a high dose.
Kathleen and Fred said:
5. Is Lantus and the pens, more expensive than ProZinc? Just started a new bottle of PZ.
Click to expand...
Per unit cost is how you should compare. If you can get it from Canadian pharmacy it is less expensive. Tips for reducing costs.
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc); +3=403

OK...is it time to head to the Vets? Won't be able to test again until around 2pm (EST).
Should I increase the PM dose?
Someone said a bounce could take 72 hours to clear. Is that what's happening?

Need help understanding what to do!! Thought we were out of the woods. :sad:
 
Re: Fred-AMPS=314; 2.5u (u100-Prozinc)

You can relax a bit. Cats can tolerate high glucose for short periods.
He went down to 114 last night, so this may well be a bounce.

Can you test for urine ketones? That would be the one thing to monitor when he is high.

Note that if you switch to Lantus, you must hold the same dose for at least 5 days on the first dose and at least 3 days on any subsequent doses. In other words, you do not increase based on the pre-shot.
 
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