2/19/13 Need HELP Bear'd +4-58 down from279
- Thread starter BettyL
- Start date
- Status
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Here's the link to yesterday's post:
Bear's 2/18 Condo
I'm so sorry you having such a hard time. :sad: Being a newbee myself, I have no advice, just want to tell you that I understand the frustration and wish you all the best in finding what works for you and your kitty. cat_pet_icon
You'll be in my thoughts, Big Hugz! :YMHUG:
Here's the link to yesterday's post:
Bear's 2/18 Condo
I'm so sorry you having such a hard time. :sad: Being a newbee myself, I have no advice, just want to tell you that I understand the frustration and wish you all the best in finding what works for you and your kitty. cat_pet_icon
You'll be in my thoughts, Big Hugz! :YMHUG:
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Hi- Just wondering how bad it would be on Bear to do what my vet says and take her off insulin. Then I could prove to her that the insulin is what was helping her not just the food change? I didn't get into it on my post last night but she said there is no way .25u could be doing any good. She didn't know how I could even measure that amount. I told her it was basically two drops. She started talking about the number of molecules and said (I think) that there would barely even be 1. She said no way could .25 be doing her any good. I really need my vet's support. I don't want to go behind her back and just do my own thing again. I left it with her that I would do the food trial. If you think the 2 week trial would hurt Bear then I certainly won't do it and will contine insulin. She said we could always put her back on insulin later. I could test her after a week or even days from now and call her and tell her Bear's BG is up again so it must have been the insulin. But if this "stunt" would hurt Bear's health and chances of remission, I''ll just try to convince her another way or go without a vet's support which I hate. Maybe it's just my pesonality but I don't like going behind her back, and need her supporting my care of Bear. If I have an emergency, I want her to know what I have been doing.
Thanks
Betty
Hi- Just wondering how bad it would be on Bear to do what my vet says and take her off insulin. Then I could prove to her that the insulin is what was helping her not just the food change? I didn't get into it on my post last night but she said there is no way .25u could be doing any good. She didn't know how I could even measure that amount. I told her it was basically two drops. She started talking about the number of molecules and said (I think) that there would barely even be 1. She said no way could .25 be doing her any good. I really need my vet's support. I don't want to go behind her back and just do my own thing again. I left it with her that I would do the food trial. If you think the 2 week trial would hurt Bear then I certainly won't do it and will contine insulin. She said we could always put her back on insulin later. I could test her after a week or even days from now and call her and tell her Bear's BG is up again so it must have been the insulin. But if this "stunt" would hurt Bear's health and chances of remission, I''ll just try to convince her another way or go without a vet's support which I hate. Maybe it's just my pesonality but I don't like going behind her back, and need her supporting my care of Bear. If I have an emergency, I want her to know what I have been doing.
Thanks
Betty
Shelly/Boots
Member Since 2012
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
H Betty,
I am not sure what you, yourself do when you test. Heat is a great start. Do you use kitty treats? At first that is a must. Freeze-Dried
Chicken or some you cook yourself worked for Boots. After a while Boots would beat me to the bathroom. I always reward
with my voice at the same time, like I would a dog, "good girl". I talk in a soothing voice telling her how amazing she is.
Do you hand poke or use a poker pen. Much easier, I think
with pen and less painful for cat and my daughter who's diabetic says it's way less painful. Hope this helps.
Below are some links below about testing.
The difficult cat one to me looks painful just using poker with no pen.
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=86436&p=925576&hilit=testing+ear#p925576 (testing tips)
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=47485&p=515124&hilit=+Video#p515124 (home testing difficult cats)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 (ear)
H Betty,
I am not sure what you, yourself do when you test. Heat is a great start. Do you use kitty treats? At first that is a must. Freeze-Dried
Chicken or some you cook yourself worked for Boots. After a while Boots would beat me to the bathroom. I always reward
with my voice at the same time, like I would a dog, "good girl". I talk in a soothing voice telling her how amazing she is.
Do you hand poke or use a poker pen. Much easier, I think
with pen and less painful for cat and my daughter who's diabetic says it's way less painful. Hope this helps.
Below are some links below about testing.
The difficult cat one to me looks painful just using poker with no pen.
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=86436&p=925576&hilit=testing+ear#p925576 (testing tips)
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=47485&p=515124&hilit=+Video#p515124 (home testing difficult cats)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 (ear)
Dyana
Member Since 2009
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
I was at an ER once where you would hope the vets were more up to date on their learning, and they asked me how much R insulin I gave and I said "0.1 unit". They said "1 unit?" and I said "no, point one unit". They just stared at me like I was crazy. I think most vets tend to dose and do increases and reductions in whole units, and don't know the fine tuning that we do here.
I wish you luck in finding out what works best for you and Bear.
I think trying the 0.1 unit twice a day would be your best bet to get Bear's diabetes regulated, and for a better chance of him to go into remission.
It does take time and patience and some sacrafice. One day, it will all get easier. It was hard and scary and stressful and frustrating for all of us at first.
I was at an ER once where you would hope the vets were more up to date on their learning, and they asked me how much R insulin I gave and I said "0.1 unit". They said "1 unit?" and I said "no, point one unit". They just stared at me like I was crazy. I think most vets tend to dose and do increases and reductions in whole units, and don't know the fine tuning that we do here.
I wish you luck in finding out what works best for you and Bear.
I think trying the 0.1 unit twice a day would be your best bet to get Bear's diabetes regulated, and for a better chance of him to go into remission.
It does take time and patience and some sacrafice. One day, it will all get easier. It was hard and scary and stressful and frustrating for all of us at first.
Shelly/Boots
Member Since 2012
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Hi Betty,
I agree you need a good relationship with your vet. I would do what's best for Bear and think of pleasing him. You
communicated to the vet and now have even had some dialog back and forth. My vet didn't agree with me either,
but they are sure on board now. Boots until recently was on .25 to .50 U. for 4yrs. (she has a partial working
pancreas. If I would have listened to my vet and not this board, she would have not have achieved getting regulated.
Her well check-up showed no sign of the diabetes because of being so regulated. They (the vet) are very impressed
now and no longer give me that feeling that I'm clueless. If you choose to wait and not treat with insulin, you risk wearing
Bear's pancreas out sooner and never achieving remission. This board has the highest record of cats going into remission
that I have ever come across. As far as your vet< just take a few days away from dialog with her and follow that deep
down feeling of yours. You won't be sorry and the vet will come around. Just be sweet, thank her and tell her your
giving the .25 just to see, that you feel good from her advise that at least lowering Bear's dose was the right decision.
Boots right now is on AB's for a mouth infection due to oral surgery she had. This has raised her BG's. If you look at her
old SS, you will see how beaufully green her numbers became. After a while I got lazy and didn't keep a log because
she just stayed around 70. Her well check up, i know would not have gone the way it did, had I not followed the tight
regulation protocol here. She is almost 17 now and in amazing shape.
Hi Betty,
I agree you need a good relationship with your vet. I would do what's best for Bear and think of pleasing him. You
communicated to the vet and now have even had some dialog back and forth. My vet didn't agree with me either,
but they are sure on board now. Boots until recently was on .25 to .50 U. for 4yrs. (she has a partial working
pancreas. If I would have listened to my vet and not this board, she would have not have achieved getting regulated.
Her well check-up showed no sign of the diabetes because of being so regulated. They (the vet) are very impressed
now and no longer give me that feeling that I'm clueless. If you choose to wait and not treat with insulin, you risk wearing
Bear's pancreas out sooner and never achieving remission. This board has the highest record of cats going into remission
that I have ever come across. As far as your vet< just take a few days away from dialog with her and follow that deep
down feeling of yours. You won't be sorry and the vet will come around. Just be sweet, thank her and tell her your
giving the .25 just to see, that you feel good from her advise that at least lowering Bear's dose was the right decision.
Boots right now is on AB's for a mouth infection due to oral surgery she had. This has raised her BG's. If you look at her
old SS, you will see how beaufully green her numbers became. After a while I got lazy and didn't keep a log because
she just stayed around 70. Her well check up, i know would not have gone the way it did, had I not followed the tight
regulation protocol here. She is almost 17 now and in amazing shape.
Angela & Blackie & 3 Others
Member Since 2010
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
My vet is on board now with my giving Lantus to my cat, Blackie. It took some time, however, after she had called me with regards to a patient of hers that she couldn't regulate on ProZinc (which is made for animals), she inquired about the Lantus, and put her patient on it. I had to visit the vet for an unrelated case, and I asked about the patient. She told me that she was able to regulate that patient on 2 units, and she also told me "that stuff works".
In my honest opinion, and if Bear were my cat, I'd keep using the insulin, no matter the amount. I think you may find that if you decide to take Bear off the insulin, the #s may go up, and then you'll be back to starting all over again. Bear's treatment is the most important thing, and you need to make the decision on how to go about treating it, whether it's strictly food, or food and insulin combined. Sure, this is daunting right now, however, over time you and Bear will get used to it, and it'll become part of the daily routine. Look at Blackie and I. Her 3rd year anniversary is coming up on March 13th. I'm still trying to figure out how to get her #s down, and it's not easy. There's a lot of trial and error when it comes to trying to regulate a diabetic kitty both with insulin, and with food.
Whatever decision you make, I wish you luck. Welcome to the board, too (if I haven't already welcomed you the first time, you're getting another welcome from me
).
My vet is on board now with my giving Lantus to my cat, Blackie. It took some time, however, after she had called me with regards to a patient of hers that she couldn't regulate on ProZinc (which is made for animals), she inquired about the Lantus, and put her patient on it. I had to visit the vet for an unrelated case, and I asked about the patient. She told me that she was able to regulate that patient on 2 units, and she also told me "that stuff works".
In my honest opinion, and if Bear were my cat, I'd keep using the insulin, no matter the amount. I think you may find that if you decide to take Bear off the insulin, the #s may go up, and then you'll be back to starting all over again. Bear's treatment is the most important thing, and you need to make the decision on how to go about treating it, whether it's strictly food, or food and insulin combined. Sure, this is daunting right now, however, over time you and Bear will get used to it, and it'll become part of the daily routine. Look at Blackie and I. Her 3rd year anniversary is coming up on March 13th. I'm still trying to figure out how to get her #s down, and it's not easy. There's a lot of trial and error when it comes to trying to regulate a diabetic kitty both with insulin, and with food.
Whatever decision you make, I wish you luck. Welcome to the board, too (if I haven't already welcomed you the first time, you're getting another welcome from me
).
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
I can appreciate you're feeling like you're being pulled in two directions. Ultimately, Bear is your cat and you hold the syringe so it is your decision. What we can provide you with is information. We can also provide information for your vet. We have spreadsheets -- lots of spreadsheets. In fact we have years of spreadsheets. (There's a master list of spreadsheets.) We can certainly show you and you can provide those links to your vet. If you take a look at the spreadsheets I linked last night, you could share them with your vet. They illustrate how a dose is gradually reduced.
Are there cats that go OTJ if insulin is stopped at 0.25u? Yes, there are -- and we all heave a big sigh of relief. Like Libby said last night, Bear's spreadsheet doesn't look like those of cats who are closer to being ready for an OTJ trial. Maybe sharing those spreadsheets I linked last night with your vet and asking if she really thinks Bear is ready would be one route to getting her on board.
If you decide to follow your vet's advice, I would not withhold insulin for 2 weeks if Bear is not in normal BG numbers. If Bear is consistently above 120, I would discuss re-starting insulin. Glucose floating around in the blood can have a very negative impact on organ functioning, especially on kidney functioning. Fundamentally, diabetes is an evil disease if left untreated. It effects everything because blood goes everywhere and there's something floating around in the blood that shouldn't be there.
BTW: If you have a question, put a note in your subject line. It's the only way we'll know there's information you need.
I can appreciate you're feeling like you're being pulled in two directions. Ultimately, Bear is your cat and you hold the syringe so it is your decision. What we can provide you with is information. We can also provide information for your vet. We have spreadsheets -- lots of spreadsheets. In fact we have years of spreadsheets. (There's a master list of spreadsheets.) We can certainly show you and you can provide those links to your vet. If you take a look at the spreadsheets I linked last night, you could share them with your vet. They illustrate how a dose is gradually reduced.
Are there cats that go OTJ if insulin is stopped at 0.25u? Yes, there are -- and we all heave a big sigh of relief. Like Libby said last night, Bear's spreadsheet doesn't look like those of cats who are closer to being ready for an OTJ trial. Maybe sharing those spreadsheets I linked last night with your vet and asking if she really thinks Bear is ready would be one route to getting her on board.
If you decide to follow your vet's advice, I would not withhold insulin for 2 weeks if Bear is not in normal BG numbers. If Bear is consistently above 120, I would discuss re-starting insulin. Glucose floating around in the blood can have a very negative impact on organ functioning, especially on kidney functioning. Fundamentally, diabetes is an evil disease if left untreated. It effects everything because blood goes everywhere and there's something floating around in the blood that shouldn't be there.
BTW: If you have a question, put a note in your subject line. It's the only way we'll know there's information you need.
rhiannon and shadow (GA)
Member Since 2012
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
I would like to add the thought that lantus was designed for humans and they discovered it worked on cats.
For a human, 1 unit or a half unit is a small amount but for a small 10-12 lb cat, it's a large amount.
Microdosing is what helped my cat go into remission. She needed that last 1 -2 drop dose until her pancreas was
healed enough to work on its own.
Vets just don't think that way ... the syringes aren't marked that way. So I think you will be teaching your vet
some new tricks...
My vet never thought of a 0.25 dose or 0.1 but she sure was impressed with the results.
I would like to add the thought that lantus was designed for humans and they discovered it worked on cats.
For a human, 1 unit or a half unit is a small amount but for a small 10-12 lb cat, it's a large amount.
Microdosing is what helped my cat go into remission. She needed that last 1 -2 drop dose until her pancreas was
healed enough to work on its own.
Vets just don't think that way ... the syringes aren't marked that way. So I think you will be teaching your vet
some new tricks...
My vet never thought of a 0.25 dose or 0.1 but she sure was impressed with the results.
PeterDevonMocha
Member Since 2009
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Hi guys .. I don't really have much advice to post here .. Lots of good information has already been given .. I just hope that you find something you are comfortable with, and that helps bear feel better .. have a great day!
Hi guys .. I don't really have much advice to post here .. Lots of good information has already been given .. I just hope that you find something you are comfortable with, and that helps bear feel better .. have a great day!
lesleymweick
Member Since 2013
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Oh Betty
Can't give you any useful advice but I want to give you a huge hug (((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))
I'm sending you warm thoughts and hope whatever you decide will bring you peace.
Oh Betty
Can't give you any useful advice but I want to give you a huge hug (((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))
I'm sending you warm thoughts and hope whatever you decide will bring you peace.
Jill & Alex (GA)
Member Since 2009
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
good morning, betty! you're in a rough spot and have obstacles to overcome, but maybe we can help.
let's discuss options. hopefully, we can figure something out that will work for you.
this is a tight regulation forum. we're all about numbers and bringing kitty into normal numbers as quickly as possible. we sometimes forget that in reality, we probably represent the minority of diabetic cat owners. there are plenty of diabetic kitties out there who are receiving insulin and not being tested before every shot. i'm not in any way condoning the practice. there's definitely an increased risk when hometesting is not a standard practice.
last night you asked if you had to get a PM+6 test every night. the answer is no... especially if you're shooting the reduced dose of 0.1 unit. if at all possible, test her before you go to bed at night. get her mid-cycle numbers on the weekend.
we have seen situations where a diabetic cat is a shop cat... a store cat. the employee caregiver wants to treat, but goes home at the end of the day. hypos are avoided by shooting lesser doses resulting in running a cat in a little higher numbers than "we" usually strive for, but at least the cat is being treated. the caregiver also makes sure to leave out plenty of food for kitty overnight. most cats will feed themselves when they feel their blood sugar levels dropping.
your circumstances are different than most given that bear is not residing in your home. i can certainly understand not wanting to set an alarm and get bundled up in the middle of the night to go out to test a cat who is difficult to test to begin with.
i think you and your husband have to weigh the pros, cons, and risks in choosing a direction with bear. we can help to a certain extent, but you are the only one who knows bear as well as your capabilities and limitations. personally, i admire you for wanting to treat her. many diabetic cat owners can't be bothered. you're not one of them.
i can *hear* the anguish in your voice. whatever you decide, you have my full support.
(((((hugs)))))
good morning, betty! you're in a rough spot and have obstacles to overcome, but maybe we can help.
let's discuss options. hopefully, we can figure something out that will work for you.
- withholding insulin for two weeks as your vet suggested:
probably not the best option for the reasons already stated by others yesterday and today, but on the other hand... not unheard of either. you could try to win bear over to the whole testing procedure during this time. many feline diabetics go undiagnosed for quite awhile without organ damage occurring. this approach would give you all a break and there is a *possibility* the diet change alone could bring bear's bg numbers down. the down side to this approach is the risk of ketones developing and glucose toxicity setting in.
- incorporating the use of secondary monitoring tools in lieu of testing blood:
ketodiastix - measures for ketones and sugar in the urine. it will offer you a snapshot in time... whether she was spilling glucose or throwing ketones in her urine 4 - 5 hours ago. the downside is it may be difficult to obtain a fresh urine sample since bear lives in separate quarters.
purina glucotest (http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/product/glucotest.aspx) - this is a product you can buy to sprinkle in the litterbox to detect the approximate sugar level in bear's urine indicated by color change when it comes in contact with urine. then you compare the color with with the color chart on the package. again, this method is not optimal, but may help.
information on treating fractious cats based on water intake, urine glucose information, and clinical assessment (http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/index.html?page=43391&pid=0) - this is a good article, but the dosing recommendations are out of date. instead of making adjustments in increments of 0.5 unit, today we suggest making adjustments in increments of 0.25 unit. however, bear has shown a marked response to lantus. at this point, if dose adjustments had to be made i would make smaller adjustments than 0.25 unit. this could change as time goes on.
dosing protocol for cats on lantus or levemir and glucose testing every 1 - 2 weeks (http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/docs/diabetesinfo/link3.pdf) - it's an available option, but it does not have the proven track record of the tight regulation protocol. measuring water intake, urine output, and clinical assessment play a key role.
- reducing the dose to 0.1u (given twice a day):
given bear's numbers, you should be able to shoot 0.1u lantus without worry. testing her blood before each shot would definitely be best, but if you try a couple of times and can't get blood i wouldn't get all bent out of shape over it. eventually it WILL get easier!
this is a tight regulation forum. we're all about numbers and bringing kitty into normal numbers as quickly as possible. we sometimes forget that in reality, we probably represent the minority of diabetic cat owners. there are plenty of diabetic kitties out there who are receiving insulin and not being tested before every shot. i'm not in any way condoning the practice. there's definitely an increased risk when hometesting is not a standard practice.
last night you asked if you had to get a PM+6 test every night. the answer is no... especially if you're shooting the reduced dose of 0.1 unit. if at all possible, test her before you go to bed at night. get her mid-cycle numbers on the weekend.
we have seen situations where a diabetic cat is a shop cat... a store cat. the employee caregiver wants to treat, but goes home at the end of the day. hypos are avoided by shooting lesser doses resulting in running a cat in a little higher numbers than "we" usually strive for, but at least the cat is being treated. the caregiver also makes sure to leave out plenty of food for kitty overnight. most cats will feed themselves when they feel their blood sugar levels dropping.
your circumstances are different than most given that bear is not residing in your home. i can certainly understand not wanting to set an alarm and get bundled up in the middle of the night to go out to test a cat who is difficult to test to begin with.
i think you and your husband have to weigh the pros, cons, and risks in choosing a direction with bear. we can help to a certain extent, but you are the only one who knows bear as well as your capabilities and limitations. personally, i admire you for wanting to treat her. many diabetic cat owners can't be bothered. you're not one of them.
i can *hear* the anguish in your voice. whatever you decide, you have my full support.
(((((hugs)))))
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Betty
I usually am on the board at night to help out and I'm sorry I missed your posts the last two nights. We are usually scanning for the "?" or numbers. Last night, I just fell asleep before you posted. So I want to go back and try to answer your questions.
I'll address them as you numbered them above:
1) we ALL go through this. There have been only a few that did not have the same issues with their vets. Many of us have gone to our vets, as Sienne suggested you do, equipped with the protocol and other cats' Spreadsheets. My vet, who had been treating FD like your vet wants to, for years, couldn't believe it. That's when she stepped back and said she thought this board could help me manage FD better than she could. I had to switch vets eventually because she moved but my new vet is always wanting to learn from us and she's been in practice about 15 years. Bear is your cat and you are her advocate. The vet is there to support you...not to dictate to you. Do not be afraid of someone who is working for you.
If you post here, you will not be doing this alone. There is almost always someone on this board 24/7. We teach you how to deal with low numbers so that Bear does not hypo. Do you think your vet will be available at 11pm to answer your questions on how to deal with a BG of 40? If you can post numbers here, when Bear's BG drops, someone will walk you through bringing the number up. If you have food and karo and you test, YOU are in control. You just have to have the confidence to know you can control the numbers. It's also important to test Bear and learn what her patterns are and how she reacts to food.
2) Bear will settle down as long as you are calm. My Gracie doesn't come running to get tested either. I could shake the treat bag all day long. But she is very, very good about letting me test her. Bear will be, too. There are alot of people in this group who have said the same thing you are about their cat. As long as you are calm and approach it calmly, she will get used to it. Don't act like it's a torture because if you do, she will sense it. Be lighthearted, sing to her, tell her the test is going to help her get better. She's your responsibility and you have to go into testing with a calm demeanor. It will help you keep her safe.
3) There are many, many members here who work and deal with FD and many are doing it alone: Sienne, Dyana, Deborah, Jo, Amy, Carla....just to name a few. Look at their condos and their SSs and see how they manage. Ask them questions about how they approach it. And it is a fact of life that we all have exhaustion....even those of us who do not work full time. But you can either fight against FD or you can accept that it is what it is and learn to deal with it. I worked the entire first year of Gracie's FD so I do know how difficult it is to work and deal with FD. And we all know what it is like to feel like you work and deal with FD. I'm just trying to say that we are empathetic to it because many of us have done it. It can be done. And I think Bear is so close to "possibly" not needing the insulin that why not give her the best chance to go into a long remission so you don't have to keep dealing with it?
You don't have to get a +6 every night. What we usually tell people who work is to get the PMPS and a +2 test. If you are up past +2, then also get a before bed test. But look closely at the +2. If the +2 is much higher than the PS, she's probably not going to do anything and you can go to bed if that is your bedtime. If the +2 is similar to or much less than the PS, then you need to set an alarm and check her again. It depends on where she is and how much lower the +2 is as to when you need to test her. But is there any possibility that on nights that it looks like she will need more testing, you can bring her in the bedroom with you? That way, it would be easier to just set an alarm, get up, test, go back to bed until the next test. On nights I know I need to get up and test, I have Gracie and all the supplies right there. It takes me less time to test her then to go to the WC and we are all back asleep quickly unless I need to feed her.
I wish I had an answer for you on this but remember that you can't help anyone....not Bear, not the other critters, not your mom, if you let this stress you out so much. You might have to be willing to make changes in the way you've always done things....like bringing Bear in your room at night. Just take a few minutes to think how to make things easier and try not to put up stumbling blocks in your mind as to why it "can't" be done. We've found that having a schedule and sticking to it helps us the most and keeps our stress down.
I wrote a post on Testing and Shooting Tips. One of the things I found made a big difference for us was making sure the bevel on the lancet is up. That way, the sharpest end goes in first and you have a better chance of getting blood the first time. Don't stab....just gently poke. If blood is gushing, perhaps you are hitting the vein which is painful. Just try to catch the edge of the ear. I bought a pack of baby washcloths and wet one in cool water. As soon as I poke, I hold the cool washcloth on her ear and hold the spot where I poke. Then immediately put Neosporin ointment (not cream) with pain relief on it. Gracie has never had a scab. If Bear is jerking her head violently, maybe you are poking too hard or not enough on the edge of the ear.
We are here to help you....just ask and if you don't get a response in a reasonable time, open up your condo, click on "post reply" and just type "bump" in the text box so your condo goes to the top.
Betty
I usually am on the board at night to help out and I'm sorry I missed your posts the last two nights. We are usually scanning for the "?" or numbers. Last night, I just fell asleep before you posted. So I want to go back and try to answer your questions.
I'll address them as you numbered them above:
1) we ALL go through this. There have been only a few that did not have the same issues with their vets. Many of us have gone to our vets, as Sienne suggested you do, equipped with the protocol and other cats' Spreadsheets. My vet, who had been treating FD like your vet wants to, for years, couldn't believe it. That's when she stepped back and said she thought this board could help me manage FD better than she could. I had to switch vets eventually because she moved but my new vet is always wanting to learn from us and she's been in practice about 15 years. Bear is your cat and you are her advocate. The vet is there to support you...not to dictate to you. Do not be afraid of someone who is working for you.
If you post here, you will not be doing this alone. There is almost always someone on this board 24/7. We teach you how to deal with low numbers so that Bear does not hypo. Do you think your vet will be available at 11pm to answer your questions on how to deal with a BG of 40? If you can post numbers here, when Bear's BG drops, someone will walk you through bringing the number up. If you have food and karo and you test, YOU are in control. You just have to have the confidence to know you can control the numbers. It's also important to test Bear and learn what her patterns are and how she reacts to food.
2) Bear will settle down as long as you are calm. My Gracie doesn't come running to get tested either. I could shake the treat bag all day long. But she is very, very good about letting me test her. Bear will be, too. There are alot of people in this group who have said the same thing you are about their cat. As long as you are calm and approach it calmly, she will get used to it. Don't act like it's a torture because if you do, she will sense it. Be lighthearted, sing to her, tell her the test is going to help her get better. She's your responsibility and you have to go into testing with a calm demeanor. It will help you keep her safe.
3) There are many, many members here who work and deal with FD and many are doing it alone: Sienne, Dyana, Deborah, Jo, Amy, Carla....just to name a few. Look at their condos and their SSs and see how they manage. Ask them questions about how they approach it. And it is a fact of life that we all have exhaustion....even those of us who do not work full time. But you can either fight against FD or you can accept that it is what it is and learn to deal with it. I worked the entire first year of Gracie's FD so I do know how difficult it is to work and deal with FD. And we all know what it is like to feel like you work and deal with FD. I'm just trying to say that we are empathetic to it because many of us have done it. It can be done. And I think Bear is so close to "possibly" not needing the insulin that why not give her the best chance to go into a long remission so you don't have to keep dealing with it?
You don't have to get a +6 every night. What we usually tell people who work is to get the PMPS and a +2 test. If you are up past +2, then also get a before bed test. But look closely at the +2. If the +2 is much higher than the PS, she's probably not going to do anything and you can go to bed if that is your bedtime. If the +2 is similar to or much less than the PS, then you need to set an alarm and check her again. It depends on where she is and how much lower the +2 is as to when you need to test her. But is there any possibility that on nights that it looks like she will need more testing, you can bring her in the bedroom with you? That way, it would be easier to just set an alarm, get up, test, go back to bed until the next test. On nights I know I need to get up and test, I have Gracie and all the supplies right there. It takes me less time to test her then to go to the WC and we are all back asleep quickly unless I need to feed her.
I don't think that most of us who have been here a while focus on this. The reason is because we know our cats and we know how to manage the numbers. Yes, Bear can be in the 200s on a dose one cycle and the very next cycle be in the 50s on the same dose. But you learn how to manage the numbers here. If we think a dose is unsafe, we will tell you to reduce it. So your thought about what is a "safe" dose might be different than we what really see as a "safe" dose. And we do take into account that you work, etc. Safety is number one here.
I wish I had an answer for you on this but remember that you can't help anyone....not Bear, not the other critters, not your mom, if you let this stress you out so much. You might have to be willing to make changes in the way you've always done things....like bringing Bear in your room at night. Just take a few minutes to think how to make things easier and try not to put up stumbling blocks in your mind as to why it "can't" be done. We've found that having a schedule and sticking to it helps us the most and keeps our stress down.
I wrote a post on Testing and Shooting Tips. One of the things I found made a big difference for us was making sure the bevel on the lancet is up. That way, the sharpest end goes in first and you have a better chance of getting blood the first time. Don't stab....just gently poke. If blood is gushing, perhaps you are hitting the vein which is painful. Just try to catch the edge of the ear. I bought a pack of baby washcloths and wet one in cool water. As soon as I poke, I hold the cool washcloth on her ear and hold the spot where I poke. Then immediately put Neosporin ointment (not cream) with pain relief on it. Gracie has never had a scab. If Bear is jerking her head violently, maybe you are poking too hard or not enough on the edge of the ear.
We are here to help you....just ask and if you don't get a response in a reasonable time, open up your condo, click on "post reply" and just type "bump" in the text box so your condo goes to the top.
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Thanks for all the words of encouragement. It was pretty rough having my vet get my hopes up about not having to test or give insulin anymore, but I'll survive and it is time to focus on Bear again.
Bear's numbers don't look so good all of the sudden. I thought Bear's 318 last night was because I locked her in the bathroom all day with some wet food icecubes and maybe she ate some of them close to test time. I did not give her a shot last night because of my vet's advise but got her back on insulin this morning. I was hoping her numbers would look better tonight since she is now getting an AM shot, but not much improvement.
I faxed my vet a letter today and told her I decided to contine Bear on insulin. I explained that her morning preshot was always under 200, but since I skipped the PM shot last night her AMPS was over 300. I also said the post shot readings at +4 and +6 showed the insulin was helping her. I also asked her why the AAHA Guidelines and Roomp and Rand protocal both refer to adjusting the dose by .25u and .50u, since she thinks .25u is a waste of time. I told her I started Bear back on insulin this morning since her AMPS was 309. I told her I thought Bear should be on insulin a while longer to let her pancreas heal some more and once her BG is in the normal rangefor a while, then maybe we could talk about trying controlling with diet alone.I asked for her support and told her that I would like to be able to call her if needed or bring Bear in for an exam and have us both in agreement on her plan of care.
Thanks again for all the help.
Betty
Thanks for all the words of encouragement. It was pretty rough having my vet get my hopes up about not having to test or give insulin anymore, but I'll survive and it is time to focus on Bear again.
Bear's numbers don't look so good all of the sudden. I thought Bear's 318 last night was because I locked her in the bathroom all day with some wet food icecubes and maybe she ate some of them close to test time. I did not give her a shot last night because of my vet's advise but got her back on insulin this morning. I was hoping her numbers would look better tonight since she is now getting an AM shot, but not much improvement.
I faxed my vet a letter today and told her I decided to contine Bear on insulin. I explained that her morning preshot was always under 200, but since I skipped the PM shot last night her AMPS was over 300. I also said the post shot readings at +4 and +6 showed the insulin was helping her. I also asked her why the AAHA Guidelines and Roomp and Rand protocal both refer to adjusting the dose by .25u and .50u, since she thinks .25u is a waste of time. I told her I started Bear back on insulin this morning since her AMPS was 309. I told her I thought Bear should be on insulin a while longer to let her pancreas heal some more and once her BG is in the normal rangefor a while, then maybe we could talk about trying controlling with diet alone.I asked for her support and told her that I would like to be able to call her if needed or bring Bear in for an exam and have us both in agreement on her plan of care.
Thanks again for all the help.
Betty
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
You're doing great! I think Jill provided some sage advice. Let us know how we can help.
You're doing great! I think Jill provided some sage advice. Let us know how we can help.
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Betty...well done you!!! Now let's get Bear back in great numbers!
Betty...well done you!!! Now let's get Bear back in great numbers!
Re: 2/19/13 Bear- Questions to Jill
Jill -I read your suggestions on alternate ways to test Bear. She is in a 1 room cottage with 9 other cats and the only way to segregate her is to lock her in the bathroom. I wouldn't want to do that long term, but that is probably the only way to monitor water intake and use special litter. I have thought about locking her in the bathroom during the day with a timed feeder so she access to food mid day rather than going 12 hours without food while I'm gone.
I decided not to withhold the insulin for 2 weeks. I actually started back up this morning. Today we gave her slightly under .25u. My husband gets the shot ready and says it is hard to measure that small of a dose. Do you think the .1u will do her some good or would .25 be better?
If I gave her the .25U, do you think it is a safe dose if I would just test at PSAM, PSPM, and at +4 after PM shot? My vet said that Bear would be fine and not in danger of hypo if she had access to food. What do you think of the timed feeder and locking her in the bathroom during the day? In the evening I usually fed her a full can of lc wet after I test her and then she gets anothe 1/2 can after I test her at +4. My husband said he didn't know how he would even measure out .1 dose. We have seen pictures of what a .1u looks like in the syringe, but it is still hard to measure.
We will try the .1u if that is what you feel is safest. Will we know fairly shortly if that small of a dose is going to help? Like everyone else, my goal is to get her off the insulin. Is .1u able to do that or will it just keep her from getting worst.?
Also was wondering if Bear is ok if I don't lock her in the bathroom and thus doesn't have access to food?
Thanks,
Betty
Jill -I read your suggestions on alternate ways to test Bear. She is in a 1 room cottage with 9 other cats and the only way to segregate her is to lock her in the bathroom. I wouldn't want to do that long term, but that is probably the only way to monitor water intake and use special litter. I have thought about locking her in the bathroom during the day with a timed feeder so she access to food mid day rather than going 12 hours without food while I'm gone.
I decided not to withhold the insulin for 2 weeks. I actually started back up this morning. Today we gave her slightly under .25u. My husband gets the shot ready and says it is hard to measure that small of a dose. Do you think the .1u will do her some good or would .25 be better?
If I gave her the .25U, do you think it is a safe dose if I would just test at PSAM, PSPM, and at +4 after PM shot? My vet said that Bear would be fine and not in danger of hypo if she had access to food. What do you think of the timed feeder and locking her in the bathroom during the day? In the evening I usually fed her a full can of lc wet after I test her and then she gets anothe 1/2 can after I test her at +4. My husband said he didn't know how he would even measure out .1 dose. We have seen pictures of what a .1u looks like in the syringe, but it is still hard to measure.
We will try the .1u if that is what you feel is safest. Will we know fairly shortly if that small of a dose is going to help? Like everyone else, my goal is to get her off the insulin. Is .1u able to do that or will it just keep her from getting worst.?
Also was wondering if Bear is ok if I don't lock her in the bathroom and thus doesn't have access to food?
Thanks,
Betty
Re: 2/19/13 Bear's mom needs advise
Betty --
When you want to get someone's attention, you have to edit the first post in the thread. The subject line of your initial post is the only one that's visible on the Board. If you change the subject line in a new post in the thread, the only way anyone will know you've got a question is if they stop by and happen to see the note.
Betty --
When you want to get someone's attention, you have to edit the first post in the thread. The subject line of your initial post is the only one that's visible on the Board. If you change the subject line in a new post in the thread, the only way anyone will know you've got a question is if they stop by and happen to see the note.
How long since you fed?
Can you stick around to monitor?
Since you just fed some LC, I'd re=test in 30 min. and see if the food put Bear on a surfboard. If not, I'd then feed a teaspoon or two of HC and the test again in another 30 min.
Since you just fed some LC, I'd re=test in 30 min. and see if the food put Bear on a surfboard. If not, I'd then feed a teaspoon or two of HC and the test again in another 30 min.
Sienne and I are on the same page. I think she's going to bed soon so I will watch for that test in 15 minutes.
If she's gone lower when you test, go ahead and give her 1 tsp of HC gravy and then retest in another 30. Ok?
If she's gone lower when you test, go ahead and give her 1 tsp of HC gravy and then retest in another 30. Ok?
Surfboard means that the drop flattens out and the numbers stabilize -- kind of like surfing along.
It's best to get a couple rising numbers....at the very least one that is not influenced by food.
As far as nadir...which is the point of peak action and the lowest BG, it is different from cat to cat and even can vary from cycle to cycle in the same cat. Some cats are very reliable and predictable, others not.
Let's just see where she is on the next test, ok? Thanks Betty!
As far as nadir...which is the point of peak action and the lowest BG, it is different from cat to cat and even can vary from cycle to cycle in the same cat. Some cats are very reliable and predictable, others not.
Let's just see where she is on the next test, ok? Thanks Betty!
The low point (nadir) varies for every cat. Gabby's nadir can be at +2 but usually it's around +3 of +4 (except on days when it isn't). In addition, the nadir can shift around from cycle to cycle or day to day.
You'll need to get a couple of tests after the numbers come up just to make sure they don't wobble around. If you use HC to prop the numbers up, once it wears off, numbers may sometimes drop again.
You'll need to get a couple of tests after the numbers come up just to make sure they don't wobble around. If you use HC to prop the numbers up, once it wears off, numbers may sometimes drop again.
I'd give her a couple more tsp of the LC and retest in another 30 if at all possible.
The other option is to give her HC and retest in 30 but she's doing well with the LC and she's approaching mid cycle. If we give her HC, you'll have to keep checking to make sure she doesn't wobble. If you give LC, she might start coming
Up on her own.
I doubt you are stressing her enough to affect her BG.
The other option is to give her HC and retest in 30 but she's doing well with the LC and she's approaching mid cycle. If we give her HC, you'll have to keep checking to make sure she doesn't wobble. If you give LC, she might start coming
Up on her own.
I doubt you are stressing her enough to affect her BG.
When you give HC food, gravy, or karo, it usually brings the numbers up pretty fast. But it also wears off in a couple hours so just when you think the BG is up, it comes back down as the extra carbs in the HC dissipate.
I rarely use anything other than LC to control Gracies numbers and you may find that is all it takes to control Bears.
See you in 30. I hope she starts up...I know it is late there and you are tired.
I rarely use anything other than LC to control Gracies numbers and you may find that is all it takes to control Bears.
See you in 30. I hope she starts up...I know it is late there and you are tired.
I was wondering what to do tomorrow morning? This is always my biggest fear. Is she doing this when I'm not home? We will try our best to give the .1u rather than.25u, but my husband says it is very hard to measure. Should I lock her in the bathroom with some frozen wet canned food ice cubes?
I did that on Monday morning and when I tested her PSPM she was the highest ever at 318. I don't know if she ate some food ice cubes close to test time. She lives with 9 other cats so I can't leave food down for her to free feed, if she felt the need to eat because she was dropping.
I'll head over shortly to retest.
Thanks
Betty
I did that on Monday morning and when I tested her PSPM she was the highest ever at 318. I don't know if she ate some food ice cubes close to test time. She lives with 9 other cats so I can't leave food down for her to free feed, if she felt the need to eat because she was dropping.
I'll head over shortly to retest.
Thanks
Betty
I'd try and give her the .1u dose. It's just a drop. What is most important is that you can repeat it consistently.
I think your only option is to put her in the bathroom with the food. Hopefully she will eat. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with her high number. It could have just been a bounce.
I think your only option is to put her in the bathroom with the food. Hopefully she will eat. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with her high number. It could have just been a bounce.
Update?
Normally we'd want one more rising test with no food. But I know you are tired. She's on her way up so I'll let you decide.
Based on the nighttime numbers you have and where she is in the cycle, I think it will be ok but it's your decision.
You did great! I will check beck in a few minutes to see if you have any other questions.
Based on the nighttime numbers you have and where she is in the cycle, I think it will be ok but it's your decision.
You did great! I will check beck in a few minutes to see if you have any other questions.
Yes. I would give her a few tsps of LC and get to bed
You did really well, Betty. Hope you get some sleep.
Good night.
You did really well, Betty. Hope you get some sleep.
Good night.
You're very welcome.
TheBowHuntress
Member Since 2012
Amazing Job! Get some much-earned sleep and I hope she surfs today
Jill & Alex (GA)
Member Since 2009
Re: 2/19/13 Bear- Questions to Jill
nice work managing bear's curve last night!
sorry i wasn't online last night to offer some help, but i've been battling this nasty flu bug. i'm glad sienne and marje were around to assist.
once we see what 0.1u can do, we'll have a better idea of what to do. if it's not enough insulin, you'll be faced with another decision. increase the dose or remain at status quo? if you want to increase the dose because 0.1u has proven not to be enough it'll mean there will be some nights like last night when monitoring may be required into the night. in most cases, it takes work to get a kitty off insulin quickly... and more often than not, a loss of sleep is part of the process.
like i mentioned earlier, only you and your husband know your capabilities and limitations. the decision to become aggressive in trying to get bear off the juice has to be yours to make. no one can make it for you nor judge you for whatever decisions you make.
keep asking an questions you may have. we'll do our best to provide answers...
PS --- stick with the 0.1u dose for now even if she throws high numbers. i wouldn't be surprised if her numbers are high after last night's trip into double digits. in fact, we expect to see high numbers after a drop like that. it's ok. her numbers will come back down usually within 72 hours. in the mean time, ignore them. maintain the 0.1u dose. continue posting so we can offer guidance along the way.
nice work managing bear's curve last night!
sorry i wasn't online last night to offer some help, but i've been battling this nasty flu bug. i'm glad sienne and marje were around to assist.
yes, i do think a 0.1u dose will do her some good.BettyL said:
after last night i think your dose questions have been answered. a dose of 0.25u may not necessarily be too high (bear didn't drop too low last night), but we've seen how a dose of 0.25u will require closer monitoring than if you gave a lesser dose.BettyL said:
i do feel a dose of 0.1u will be safer for bear given the circumstances. we should know if it's enough insulin to keep her out of high numbers by this weekend.BettyL said:
once we see what 0.1u can do, we'll have a better idea of what to do. if it's not enough insulin, you'll be faced with another decision. increase the dose or remain at status quo? if you want to increase the dose because 0.1u has proven not to be enough it'll mean there will be some nights like last night when monitoring may be required into the night. in most cases, it takes work to get a kitty off insulin quickly... and more often than not, a loss of sleep is part of the process.
like i mentioned earlier, only you and your husband know your capabilities and limitations. the decision to become aggressive in trying to get bear off the juice has to be yours to make. no one can make it for you nor judge you for whatever decisions you make.
i really don't like the thought of bear having to be locked in the bathroom all day/night and i bet she doesn't either! however, with bear's marked response to tiny doses of insulin... i'd be pretty nervous about leaving her without access to food all day/night. others may not agree, but if bear were mine, i'd trade a little unhappiness for keeping her safe. cats do seem to adapt quickly to routine and their surroundings. this issue might not be a big deal in another few days.BettyL said:
keep asking an questions you may have. we'll do our best to provide answers...
PS --- stick with the 0.1u dose for now even if she throws high numbers. i wouldn't be surprised if her numbers are high after last night's trip into double digits. in fact, we expect to see high numbers after a drop like that. it's ok. her numbers will come back down usually within 72 hours. in the mean time, ignore them. maintain the 0.1u dose. continue posting so we can offer guidance along the way.
BJM
Member Since 2010
You may find it helpful to get some magnifiers to measure the doses; I know I did!
There are free-standing, visor-mounted, and eye glass clip on models available (Carson Clip & Flip is one model); you can check a local hobby store, or our shopping partner Amazon (link at top of page).
There are free-standing, visor-mounted, and eye glass clip on models available (Carson Clip & Flip is one model); you can check a local hobby store, or our shopping partner Amazon (link at top of page).
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