2/15 Sam AMPS 330 .3

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KristenP&Sam

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AMPS - 330 Shot .3
+2 - 295
+6 310 Shot another .3
+8 334
+10 341

I'll monitor him and see how he does with that small increase. I'll be gone all day tomorrow, so if he needs another bump up, he may not get it until Thursday.
 
I wish one of our smilies was like that poster of a kitty hanging on by his claws with the caption "Hang in there". It would be perfect for you this am.
 
I'm with Sue we need a "hang in there" smiley. Sam couldn't have a better bean looking after him. He's a puzzle alright, but you'll get it.
 
Just did Sam's +6 and it was 310, so I gave him another .3 shot in an effort to bring him down from this flat high he's been on. Will see what his PMPS brings. Tomorrow he'll only get 2 shots since I'll be gone all day, but at least I can get things started.
 
That should be fine, but since this is the first time you have tried it, get some tests in before the pmps. We can't be sure how he will react.

Giving .3 3 times will be .9 shot which is higher than you have been doing. So I would watch the pmps carefully.
 
But wouldn't the .9u be total for the day so if you divide it in half for BID it would be equal to .45u? You were betting better numbers on the .4 & .5u BID.

I've never done TID so I can only be a cheerleader but I sure hope it works for him.
 
hi kristen. someone asked me to stop by and check out your SS and recent threads.... well i read yesterday's thread in which you asked for opinions, any opinions, even from those of us that have used PZI in past but do not normally post here, and my concern for such a recent DKA survivor being at the numbers he has been voted down my normal 'i don't post in that forum' rule and i'll venture an opinion here. (i hope post will be received with the spirit in which it was written, solely out of concern for this cat).

here is the thing~
newly dx'ed diabetic cats bounce. it is normal and totally fine. however, imho, it is not wise to lower insulin dose to the point where bouncing stops and you are left in flat numbers alright, but ones just way too high for my comfort in a cat that survived DKA not that long ago.

there are a few ways to proceed~
fact: he is a low dose cat.
implication: he might very likely go off insulin one day if things are handled correctly and his pancreas has the capability.

for his pancreas to heal he needs time in lower numbers. there are a few ways to achieve that.

1- [manipulate time]. tid/shoot the rise with set dose is one way. and an effective way. especailly with such a low dose cat, the worry if you make an error is not anywhere near that as if you were attempting that with a hefty sized dosed cat. it really is not as difficult as it sounds, i know you are new and just handling what you have been is overwhelming, but you're a sharp cookie, i bet you can do it. remember you have room for error in what pam/layla described, ya got that whole pre-onset time for number to rise more as a safety net. also remember you are not shooting large doses of insulin, and you are armed with a meter and a hypo tool box(viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2354), you are in total control and are not gonna harm your cat. you can change any low number that makes you nervous, you've seen that already. yeah it is not fair that the newly dx'ed cat with the 'overwhelmed with having to process all this info on a topic that not long ago s/he knew nothing about' owner has to be the one that has the greatest possibility of awesome benefits from running the cat in green (the door to remission is open widest for the newly dx'ed), would be nice if there was time for you to hang out in higher numbers and get comfortable with all this, but since you have a cat that recently had DKA and have to get his numbers down anyways, might as well go for that door and think about seeing if you can get some pancreatic activity happening by running him in lower numbers for as many hours a day as possible. kwim?

2- [manipulate food]. if shooting tid/the rise freaks you out too much~btw it is not something one has to do forever, just until either a working pancreas starts peeking its head around or until cat stops bouncing and word 'regulated' and 'sam' can be used in same sentence or at least until more time has passed putting greater distance between him and the DKA episode. many have done short term tid/rise shooting for a while and then stopped, it is a lot of work, and they discontinued it when certain goals had been achieved~however you can try this (this meaning spending more hours in lower numbers) with bid shooting, the good old 12/12 with set dose, and manipulate numbers more with food and % carbs. like raising insulin dose to one that can produce some green numbers and softening drop with some bites of higher carb food and feeding lowest possible carbs when in the bounce part of cycle. like say you have a lower PS, then would feed higher % carbs as meal with that so when onset happens insulin can play with that and let cat stay in range you want. there will be less hours in range you want but this is a new diabetic here, plenty have gotten to goal w/o resorting to tid/shooting the rise way of handling things. totally your choice on how you want to proceed here with sam. as time goes by the bounces will get shorter and less extreme and every green number won't be followed by a red one and he'll surprise you with a way flatter curve.

3-[manipulate dose]. you can also try using a sliding scale approach, however that is the one i least suggest, the "see a number/shoot a number" style of working your insulin is one that it is too easy to miscalculate and end up either undershooting or overshooting, and just seen have too many end up wasting time chasing numbers all over their SS. to me that style feels like one is reacting to what has happened rather than shooting for what is gonna happen, always one step behind.

anyways the point of what i am trying to pass on to you here kristen it that sam is going to bounce, that is a given and not "the most horrible thing ever in the world of feline diabetes", just a normal stage of the process and there are things you can do to work around or with that and i feel strongly that this lowering the dose to stop the bouncing is not the safest way to proceed for your cat.
hth~
jojo


ps. as an extreme example of bid shooting w/ a long time bouncy bouncy cat (no, so not saying that your time frame will be anything like theirs!) go check out barbara and tuffy's SS~ different insulin but a great example of a very bouncey cat (that wore on owner's patience), but then suddenly body finally 'got it' one day and the bouncing stopped. once that happened, the cat was able to spend long hours in pancreatic healing range and tada!~ went OTJ.


the formula for whole feline diabetes thing is:
insulin + food + time + cat: the unknown variable in the equation = BG number on meter.
you can learn to control the first 3 variables there and will end up once you know your cat to pretty much knowing what number is gonna be on your meter at any given time. see how one day instead of being surprised by number on meter you can cause it? no more 'hoping for a good number'~ you create it! :)
 
I've done a lot of thinking and although I may not be in the best state of mind (I have company in the house, more arriving tomorrow, am trying to get over a cold and, as always, am under deadlines for my work) here's what I've decided. I'm upping him tomorrow to .4 even though I won't be around all day to test as I'll be out with my company. He won't be completely alone since some of my other company will be here (my parents). I'll leave them the hypo info printed out just in case, although with Sam's numbers lately, I doubt that will be an issue.

For the next two weeks while my company is here, I'm going to stick to BID dosing. It will be too hard to do TID since I'll be out and about playing host to them. Once they leave, I'll reassess. I'm not against doing TID as indicated, just concerned that now isn't the best time to get started with it.

Jojo - thanks for stopping by and giving me all that info. It's a little overwhelming, but I get the gist of it.

Ultimately, I think my best bet is to find a BID dose that gives him some green time and stick with it. At least for now.
 
I think that sounds fine, Kristen. We're here for you whatever. I think increasing the dose will give us more info. And I do think that doing TID requires more time and energy, and you need to be ready and able to do that before you decide to try it for a time.

Whatever, he is doing okay. We will figure out what works best for him.
 
Thanks, Sue.

As you can see from my original post, his numbers don't seem to have been very positively affected by that second shot. I have a feeling .4 won't do much for him tomorrow, but I can tweak it again on Thursday if need be.
 
you're welcome kristen. :)
don't worry that you don't get all of that immediately, heck there are people that have been around for years don't get it. feline diabetes is one heck of a topic to get thrown at ya, i mean come on, how many times did you ever think about your cat's pancreas before this? :shock:
your plan sounds fine~ up dose and stay with set doing and bid since this is not the right time in your schedule for you to try manipulating time. however you can still work on the food aspect and see how much control you can get over curve just doing that (hey, that alone has totally worked on some cats) for the next couple of weeks, right? see, bad bounces happen not just from how low a number a cat hits, but the speed of the drop. maybe if you can get some real early cycle tests in and if he looks like he is gonna slide down the banister to the basement then can toss a bunch of higher carb canned food on that banister to slow the slide down so that reaction afterward won't be as high? using janet and binky's food charts can have low, ultra low, reg, med and high carb little cans in house and see what control they give you over his numbers. and who knows? you might find that med carb food and slightly higher dose to offset that is what gives your cat a nice flat lower curve. there is no 'law' that says all diabetic cats must only eat ultra low carb food, it is just that one gets to shoot less insulin the lower the carbs usually, but in a recent DKA cat, less insulin is something you kinda try to stay away from.

and then very correct~ reassess! :mrgreen: remember never married to a plan, can change it any time you feel it is not taking you anywhere. i've seen too often where people stay with something that is just not working and rely on "hope that it will get better" rather than saying 'next!' or 'time for plan B!' or 'gotta do something different now!' or whatever. i know that sounds like it is against the SLUGS (start low, go slow) protocol, but those that brought home a cat from DKA hospital stay do not always have the luxury of SLUGS, got the added pressure of keeping the ketone monster, that knows where you live, away.

a concept that you need to understand (as does everyone) is that ketones are not 'a product' of high numbers, that is common misunderstanding. ketones are caused by lack of insulin, too little...so hence, yes often see high numbers as a result of that, but doesn't have to be so, can have low numbers and yet be throwing ketones. i would much rather see a cat have high numbers from a bounce after getting good sized (for that cat) shot of insulin than straight flat slightly lower numbers that are from shot of not enough insulin. pretend you added up the BG numbers and overall total of the 2 types of curves add up to say the exact same number, the one where numbers dipped lower and bounced and the flat type of too little insulin curve, yet one is safe and the other is not. one the cat got enough insulin even though numbers were not pretty whole curve, the other he did not. getting 'enough' insulin into a cat that is what is important, that is what keeps them away from getting into ketone or DKA trouble. do you get this concept? it is important.
sorry i went off on a tangent there, but that is something so important for any owner of a cat that was in DKA at one point to really grasp, actually for any newly dx'ed diabetic cat owner and (those that advise them) since they are the ones at most risk for that kind of trouble. so yeah, the new diabetic cat, so much to think about~ most likely to go into remission, most likely to get ketones, both extremes all with a stressed owner who is just trying to figure out which end of a syringe is up. now you know why the mantra of the newbie is the most important person on the board~ so much on their plate, so overwhelming, so much to try to understand at once, but that is why good people like sue and joanna stick around and why giving advice to the newbie is the most important function of this board, not TT threads about nanowhatevers. there are people that have experienced the horror of DKA in their own cat and they watch any post-DKA cat on board to make sure they are doing okay. these cats are just so precious....
yeah another long post, lol, and people might think 'why?' but look, you are already thinking of giving 0.4 units tomorrow, that might not sounds like a big difference from the 0.2, but really it is twice as much insulin. :smile: good.
~jojo
ps. ask questions anytime you come across anything that is not crystal clear. one person's style of explaining something might not click as well as another person's for someone. that is another good part of the peer review aspect of this board.
 
You'll get there, Kristen. Two steps forward, one step back. Good luck with your new dosing plan....and with 2 weeks of company. I don't think I could survive that!
 
Oh boy, Kristen, have you ever got your plate full! All that info from JoJo is fascinating to read, but so much to absorb. But it seems like it contains very helpful guidelines and to me it seems comforting to know that there are different ways to go about this and no one right answer at all times. Sam is lucky to have someone as dedicated as you taking care of him. Hope your company pitches in and helps you too!
 
Yeah, shooting around +6 can be tricky. I have shot then and gotten *shockingly* good results, so I tend to be wary of it if not absolutely needed. Keep in mind too when you go to evaluate tonight's data (are you shooting again at another +6?) that it will be wonkified from the overlap effect.

If you haven't already shot tonight's dose, maybe Jojo or someone can give you some advice on what to shoot since it will be at +6 if I understood right. If you have already shot, I would try to get a spot test or two in leading up to +6-ish to be sure you aren't getting anything overly green. My guess is he'll run high and then maybe drop nicely to a lower PS tomorrow morning, but that's just a guess.

Sounds like you have a plan and have gotten some good advice. Hope things go great!

p.s. if you do see something overly green later, remember to post on Health for help if PZIland is sleepy!!! Not to scare you, I'm sure he'll do just fine, but just a reminder in case.
 
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