? 12-20 Panzer PMPS 188/312@+4 OMG/327@+5/330@+6/ increased today/possible UTI

Chrispooky12

Chrispooky12

Member Since 2021
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/12-12-panzer-pmps-110-177-3-193-4-197-5-241-6.271786/

Panzer has been doing the pain meow before using the litter box. He probably has a UTI, I bought ketone test strips but haven't tested him yet. He's never had them so hopefully that's not the issue. Question could this possibly have something to do with the advil he injested on December 2nd? If I have to take urine in to the vet, I will have to go back to my old vet most likely. The vet we have now refuses to give anymore refills on any & all prescriptions for both boys until I bring both boys in for an exam & Panzer would have to have a rabies vaccine, which I am totally against! My old vet doesn't require vaccines but he called Panzer a dog the whole time we were there last. What to do? What to do?

If my health insurance approves it which I'm sure they will because I still have one large tumor & 2 smaller tumors in my uterus that he cut down. The bigger one he couldn't cut any off of it. So I imagine he will push for them to cover a necessary hysterectomy. He tried to get them to approve a prescription that's best suited for me to stop my bleeding until the procedure but they denied it. I can't take birth control pills anymore because of my Mom's history of strokes. He also told me when they put me under anthesia for the ablation that they put a medicine in my IV to help prevent blood clots which is what they will do again. If it's approved my surgery will be on February 3rd. I'm not looking forward to the 24hr hospital stay & will be pushing to leave sooner if at all possible. I haven't been away from my boys for an overnight since April of 2020 & that was for an emergency surgery on my leg due to a lawn mower accident. I wasn't feeding wet food or testing then because I knew nothing about diabetes then,but I still hated being away from them.

Any thoughts about what might be going on with Panzer would be greatly appreciated TIA

Wanted to add to this that Panzer is get 1/4 tsp of slippery elm with bark mixed with a couple of tsps of baby food & water every other day. He tried to bury his pumpkin the other night so we aren't eating that for awhile. Also on the days that he has slippery elm bark he only has Mirilax 1x that day instead of 2xs but has it twice the next day. I don't know if the slippery elm bark would have anything to do with a UTI? He's having a much easier time pooping & a good amount of stool since we started the slippery elm with bark.
 
Last edited:
Ugh Christine, I’m sorry the denied your prescription I can’t imagine how frustrating that must be. Hope you’re feeling a bit better and your surgery is approved quickly! You have to take care of yourself so you can take care of your boys :bighug:
 
Ah, Christina, I am so sorry that Panzer may have another UTI. Poor boy seems to be prone to them. But we can’t know for sure unless you get his urine analyzed. And we can’t really know if anything is a result of the Advil incident because we don’t have bloodwork or anything to compare now with then. I am inclined to think that this is not related to that December 2 incident, because it’s been several weeks and, from what I understand, the effects of ingesting Advil are seen much more quickly. Panzer seems to have weathered that incident pretty well. This is something I would ask my vet — could there be a delayed reaction to the Advil ingestion? I agree about the rabies shots! It seems like you do meed to go back to the vet that is not going to require vaccinations.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Oh, Re you still giving him D-Mannose to help ward off UTIs?
Click to expand...
No I haven't given him D-mannose since during his 4month long UTI. I quit it sometime during that because he was on so many meds including the antibiotic. Right now he takes proviable DC probiotic, zobaline, slippery elm, & Mirilax. He hasn't had mirtaz for probably a month now. I only put that on his & Spooks ear as needed which is hardly ever. Spook however still gets 1/4 ondansetron @AMPS every morning, everytime I try to stop it he either pukes or refuses food.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Ah, Christina, I am so sorry that Panzer may have another UTI. Poor boy seems to be prone to them. But we can’t know for sure unless you get his urine analyzed. And we can’t really know if anything is a result of the Advil incident because we don’t have bloodwork or anything to compare now with then. I am inclined to think that this is not related to that December 2 incident, because it’s been several weeks and, from what I understand, the effects of ingesting Advil are seen much more quickly. Panzer seems to have weathered that incident pretty well. This is something I would ask my vet — could there be a delayed reaction to the Advil ingestion? I agree about the rabies shots! It seems like you do meed to go back to the vet that is not going to require vaccinations.
Click to expand...
I'm going to give them a call tomorrow & see how much it would cost to bring in a clean catch & have it tested. Is it IDEX that checks the urine, or is that just blood? He won't send it off unless I request him to. We already know that doxycycline is the only one he isn't resistant to & it works.
 
Chrispooky12 said:
No I haven't given him D-mannose since during his 4month long UTI. I quit it sometime during that because he was on so many meds including the antibiotic. Right now he takes proviable DC probiotic, zobaline, slippery elm, & Mirilax. He hasn't had mirtaz for probably a month now. I only put that on his & Spooks ear as needed which is hardly ever. Spook however still gets 1/4 ondansetron @AMPS every morning, everytime I try to stop it he either pukes or refuses food.
Click to expand...
Should I start giving him D-Mannose again? @Suzanne & Darcy
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I would put D-Mannose in the category of “can’t hurt, might help.” I would try it. It sounds like he needs to go to the vet or you need to take in a urine sample if the vet will allow that.
Click to expand...
Okay I will give it to him @PMPS. I called the vet they said it was okay to bring a clean catch in. I dumped what I had to test for ketones so I will get another catch later & take it to them in the morning. We have a huge snow storm coming in Thursday night! My Wed house canceled so I did my Thursday house today & doing my Friday house tomorrow. Hopefully we don't get snowed in but at least my work for the week will be done before it hits us!
 
From what I remember from doing this in the past, I believe the urine sample needs to be brought in within 2 hours of collection and shouldn’t be refrigerated. Makes it easy, huh? Good luck with Panzer, and with you. I hope they get everything out and you have a healthy and complete recovery.
 
Chrispooky12 said:
Okay I will give it to him @PMPS. I called the vet they said it was okay to bring a clean catch in. I dumped what I had to test for ketones so I will get another catch later & take it to them in the morning. We have a huge snow storm coming in Thursday night! My Wed house canceled so I did my Thursday house today & doing my Friday house tomorrow. Hopefully we don't get snowed in but at least my work for the week will be done before it hits us!
Click to expand...
But aren’t you losing money when people cancel? I’m sorry about that!
 
Chrispooky12 said:
Okay I will give it to him @PMPS. I called the vet they said it was okay to bring a clean catch in. I dumped what I had to test for ketones so I will get another catch later & take it to them in the morning. We have a huge snow storm coming in Thursday night! My Wed house canceled so I did my Thursday house today & doing my Friday house tomorrow. Hopefully we don't get snowed in but at least my work for the week will be done before it hits us!
Click to expand...

Hey! Just saw this. Sorry panzer isn’t feeling 100%. Weird that your vet won’t give meds until you get them vaccinated. That’s frustrating. I don’t see how this could be related to the advil, possible though. How’s he doing now? If it’s the pain yowl before he urinates then a UTI would be the most likely in my opinion.
 
chuckstables said:
Hey! Just saw this. Sorry panzer isn’t feeling 100%. Weird that your vet won’t give meds until you get them vaccinated. That’s frustrating. I don’t see how this could be related to the advil, possible though. How’s he doing now? If it’s the pain yowl before he urinates then a UTI would be the most likely in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Some vets are real sticklers about vaccines. I had the mobile vet tell me she would not see my cats again unless they were all “up to date” on vaccines. So since I do not believe in over-vaccinating my cats, that was the last time we ever saw the mobile vet.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Some vets are real sticklers about vaccines. I had the mobile vet tell me she would not see my cats again unless they were all “up to date” on vaccines. So since I do not believe in over-vaccinating my cats, that was the last time we ever saw the mobile vet.
Click to expand...
Is it just not as important for indoor cats or something?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
But aren’t you losing money when people cancel? I’m sorry about that!
Click to expand...
Yes but he gave me $100 bonus last time so I guess that paid me this week. My 2 other houses that canceled the past 2wks, one with the flu & one with covid both paid me anyways. I've noticed my women clients pay anyways most of the time but the men don't. It is what it is, it's the non perks of being self employed!
 
chuckstables said:
Is it just not as important for indoor cats or something?
Click to expand...
I've lost 2 kitty's from having shots as stated by my vet for the second kitty. They cause tumors in some cats. My first kitty(12yrs old)had a tumor & we got it removed 5yrs later he was diagnosed with lymphoma cancer he lived for 2mons after he was diagnosed. My daughter's kitty (8yrs old)the 2nd one started growing a big tumor on her hind leg quarter right where they give the shot, had it removed & a bunch of little ones grew back. She went downhill fast. I asked the vet why they give the shot (feline leukemia vaccine)if they know it causes tumors, he said he doesn't recommend it but some people want it. He said they had discussed giving it to cats in there tails so when a tumor grew they could cut there tail down or off. Rabies vaccine causes tumors as well, I Googled it because a friend told me rabies vaccine causes them as well.
 
chuckstables said:
Hey! Just saw this. Sorry panzer isn’t feeling 100%. Weird that your vet won’t give meds until you get them vaccinated. That’s frustrating. I don’t see how this could be related to the advil, possible though. How’s he doing now? If it’s the pain yowl before he urinates then a UTI would be the most likely in my opinion.
Click to expand...
He doesn't do it all the time but more often then not. When we moved almost a year ago he had a 4month long UTI. Doxycycline finally kicked it. Also higher #s with Panzer usually means either a possible UTI or a pancreatitis flare up, knock on wood don't want either. Surprisingly he is having an active downward cycle so far tonight.
 
Chrispooky12 said:
I've lost 2 kitty's from having shots as stated by my vet for the second kitty. They cause tumors in some cats. My first kitty(12yrs old)had a tumor & we got it removed 5yrs later he was diagnosed with lymphoma cancer he lived for 2mons after he was diagnosed. My daughter's kitty (8yrs old)the 2nd one started growing a big tumor on her hind leg quarter right where they give the shot, had it removed & a bunch of little ones grew back. She went downhill fast. I asked the vet why they give the shot (feline leukemia vaccine)if they know it causes tumors, he said he doesn't recommend it but some people want it. He said they had discussed giving it to cats in there tails so when a tumor grew they could cut there tail down or off. Rabies vaccine causes tumors as well, I Googled it because a friend told me rabies vaccine causes them as well.
Click to expand...

From what I read online it's the adjuvants in them that are mixed that cause inflammation. The goal is to promote a strong immune response for 'dead' virus types of vaccines by inducing localized inflammation. Seems it also induces tumors though, so that's kind of totally messed up. Especially for indoor cats who don't really need them if we keep them indoors. But the practice of refusing to see/prescribe meds is idiotic. What the vet SHOULD be doing if they think the client is not doing what they should be is try to educate them. That gives the client a chance to express their point of view, which in your case is totally sensible. That way the two of you could've come to an understanding instead of the vet just flexing and trying to force you to do something. That's just wrong, and stupid.

Good to know though, I'll see if I can confirm that the rabies vaccine has an adjuvant. The vaccine itself wouldn't cause cancer; it's pretty much proven at this point that they are safe. The problem is adding an adjuvant to make them 'last' longer by promoting a stupidly big immune response by inflaming the entire area! At least that's so far as I can tell.
 
chuckstables said:
From what I read online it's the adjuvants in them that are mixed that cause inflammation. The goal is to promote a strong immune response for 'dead' virus types of vaccines by inducing localized inflammation. Seems it also induces tumors though, so that's kind of totally messed up. Especially for indoor cats who don't really need them if we keep them indoors. But the practice of refusing to see/prescribe meds is idiotic. What the vet SHOULD be doing if they think the client is not doing what they should be is try to educate them. That gives the client a chance to express their point of view, which in your case is totally sensible. That way the two of you could've come to an understanding instead of the vet just flexing and trying to force you to do something. That's just wrong, and stupid.

Good to know though, I'll see if I can confirm that the rabies vaccine has an adjuvant. The vaccine itself wouldn't cause cancer; it's pretty much proven at this point that they are safe. The problem is adding an adjuvant to make them 'last' longer by promoting a stupidly big immune response by inflaming the entire area! At least that's so far as I can tell.
Click to expand...
I called my old vet today & they are happy to have them back as patients. He's kind of a holistic vet but still gives vaccines to those who want them. He knows my boys are inside only so he is fine with them not having it. I'm going to see if he will add to there charts that they are allergic to vaccines. He's pretty old & has tried to retire twice but can't get anyone to take his practice over so he just stays.
 
For UTIs, Cantharis 30C is recommended. I used this for one of the other cats after catching him go into the box repeatedly and straining. Leading up to that, he was pooping outside his box!

Posted on the Cat Moms Club, March 2021 (This was before Leo's diabetes diagnosis, December 2021!):
Isaiah solution for straining:
Wet food is best in this case. One of our kitties was recently missing his box and then we noticed he was straining.... Ohhhh. OK. As a newbie to homeopathy, I tried to put two pellets of Cantharis 30C in his mouth.... slipped into the side of his mouth and held it some, and made sure he didn't spit it out, plus added one pellet of Nux Vomica 6c in his clean water bowl. Did this for a couple of days or so. Yay! He's been doing great! Also, started omitting the dry food and only using wet. He used to get both dry & wet food, but not now. Sometimes he gets into one of the other two cat bowls of food, and I just let him get some since it's not his main diet.

This was before I knew better! No more dry food for any of the three kitties for almost a year.

Best to Panzer!
 
Mom of 3 Fur Babies said:
For UTIs, Cantharis 30C is recommended. I used this for one of the other cats after catching him go into the box repeatedly and straining. Leading up to that, he was pooping outside his box!

Posted on the Cat Moms Club, March 2021 (This was before Leo's diabetes diagnosis, December 2021!):
Isaiah solution for straining:
Wet food is best in this case. One of our kitties was recently missing his box and then we noticed he was straining.... Ohhhh. OK. As a newbie to homeopathy, I tried to put two pellets of Cantharis 30C in his mouth.... slipped into the side of his mouth and held it some, and made sure he didn't spit it out, plus added one pellet of Nux Vomica 6c in his clean water bowl. Did this for a couple of days or so. Yay! He's been doing great! Also, started omitting the dry food and only using wet. He used to get both dry & wet food, but not now. Sometimes he gets into one of the other two cat bowls of food, and I just let him get some since it's not his main diet.

This was before I knew better! No more dry food for any of the three kitties for almost a year.

Best to Panzer!
Click to expand...
Where do you get it from? Is it a prescription? Neither one of my boys drink water (even though they have a fresh bowl daily set out)so that part wouldn't work. I add 3 tablespoons of water to each meal so they are still getting the water they need. He doesn't strain to go or go outside the box but he does go from one box to the other sometimes & the pain meow not everytime but quite a bit.
 
Jackie and Biggie said:
From what I remember from doing this in the past, I believe the urine sample needs to be brought in within 2 hours of collection and shouldn’t be refrigerated. Makes it easy, huh? Good luck with Panzer, and with you. I hope they get everything out and you have a healthy and complete recovery.
Click to expand...
I've taken them in the next day & it has been fine. The best way is to take them in & have them extract the urine. Since I'm going back to my old vet & it's the holiday weekend they said I could just bring a clean catch in & they will send in a script for antibiotic if it's positive.
 
Chrispooky12 said:
Where do you get it from? Is it a prescription? Neither one of my boys drink water (even though they have a fresh bowl daily set out)so that part wouldn't work. I add 3 tablespoons of water to each meal so they are still getting the water they need. He doesn't strain to go or go outside the box but he does go from one box to the other sometimes & the pain meow not everytime but quite a bit.
Click to expand...

Oh, Panzer! Poor baby!
My newlywed daughter is experiencing a UTI. Mot sure why she didn't start the D-mannose straight away, but did get the Cantharis 30C, and it's helping. Yay!

Not sure where you're located.... if US, a healthfood store usually carries this. We have Sprouts which is a national chain. Boiron has a store locator link:
https://www.boironusa.com/store-locator/
It would be better to find this sooner than later. The problem with antibiotics is that it kills all the bugs, good and bad ones.
 
Mom of 3 Fur Babies said:
Oh, Panzer! Poor baby!
My newlywed daughter is experiencing a UTI. Mot sure why she didn't start the D-mannose straight away, but did get the Cantharis 30C, and it's helping. Yay!

Not sure where you're located.... if US, a healthfood store usually carries this. We have Sprouts which is a national chain. Boiron has a store locator link:
https://www.boironusa.com/store-locator/
It would be better to find this sooner than later. The problem with antibiotics is that it kills all the bugs, good and bad ones.
Click to expand...
Aww your poor daughter. My daughter has had a UTI a couple of times & she said ut is very painful. I had a kidney stone years ago & it was worse than having a baby. After 2 days of excruciating pain, I told them to admit me & take it out. They said it was a good thing I didn't pass it because it would have ripped my urethra.
Thank you I will look into it after work today :)
 
Last edited:
This is the kind of thing that can help relieve symptoms but it will not kill and eliminate bacteria. For example, D-Mannose helps keep bacteria (at least specifically E coli bacteria, from adhering to the bladder wall, so it can help, but it’s not a cure. If he really has bacteria in there then it will still be there. We won’t know if he has an actual UTI until you get the vet to look at his urine. He may have FLUTD, but he does have a history of actual cultured bacteria in his urine. So definitely get the urinalysis done. Yes, antibiotics may kill all different kinds of bacteria (even the “good” ones) but they do not kill all bad bacteria necessarily either. What I am saying is, remember how they tried several different types of antibiotic on Panzer before finally doing a culture and finding the specific bacteria. He did not get real relief until they gave him the Doxycycline. The previous antibiotics did not work against his specific bacteria causing the UTI. Some work to kill gram positive bacteria and some kill (or stop the replication of) gram negative bacteria, etc. That’s why we have so many different antibiotics to choose from. I am not advocating anything in particular, but I am hoping that you can get a specimen to the vet for examination.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
This is the kind of thing that can help relieve symptoms but it will not kill and eliminate bacteria. For example, D-Mannose helps keep bacteria (at least specifically E coli bacteria, from adhering to the bladder wall, so it can help, but it’s not a cure. If he really has bacteria in there then it will still be there. We won’t know if he has an actual UTI until you get the vet to look at his urine. He may have FLUTD, but he does have a history of actual cultured bacteria in his urine. So definitely get the urinalysis done. Yes, antibiotics may kill all different kinds of bacteria (even the “good” ones) but they do not kill all bad bacteria necessarily either. What I am saying is, remember how they tried several different types of antibiotic on Panzer before finally doing a culture and finding the specific bacteria. He did not get real relief until they gave him the Doxycycline. The previous antibiotics did not work against his specific bacteria causing the UTI. Some work to kill gram positive bacteria and some kill (or stop the replication of) gram negative bacteria, etc. That’s why we have so many different antibiotics to choose from. I am not advocating anything in particular, but I am hoping that you can get a specimen to the vet for examination.
Click to expand...
I was able to get a clean catch to them an hour ago & he does have a UTI. I am going to make a post because they gave him on a higher dose than the last doxycycline. I will tag you in it so hopefully you & others can give me advice? @Suzanne & Darcy
 
chuckstables said:
Is it just not as important for indoor cats or something?
Click to expand...
So I saw this this morning and wanted to reply, but I haven't been on a real computer all day (phone only). It's too hard to type. I tend to get on my soapbox about vaccines in cats (hence the need for a real keyboard.) I see that you have checked out some about vaccines, adjuvants, etc. There's an issue with both the duration of immunity conferred upon cats with vaccines and also with the adjuvants. There's a lot of evidence that cats get many years of immunity with their vaccines (way more than annual and even more than three years after they have completed their first set of kitten vaccines (which I only EVER get the two FVRCP shots and the rabies shot for my kittens ... and I have kittens in this house all the time... about 15-20 or so per year.... fosters.) I will even consider the one year rabies booster and FVRCP shots, but after that it's very unnecessary for a long time. Titers can be tested to prove immunity if necessary. This has been done and the immunity is strong for many years.

Now the Leukemia vaccine is simply a horror. I also have friends who have lost their cats to sarcomas caused by the leukemia vaccine (even after surgery, chemo, etc.... all of which was compensated for by the vaccine manufacturer, by the way, since the KNOW that they need to set aside funds for the sarcomas that will be caused by their leukemia vaccine and they pay people for chemo, surgery, etc., but many many cats die.

With regard to adjuvants, I only allow my cats (when they do get vaccinated, which is not often after they've completed their first series of shots) anyway.... I only allow them to be vaccinated with the Merial Purevax non-adjuvanted vaccines, since their safety profile is better than the adjuvanted vaccines. The now have both rabies and FVRCP vaccines in the PUREVAX form. Anyway, that's just a little bit about vaccines. Let me link a few articles in the next post.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
So I saw this this morning and wanted to reply, but I haven't been on a real computer all day (phone only). It's too hard to type. I tend to get on my soapbox about vaccines in cats (hence the need for a real keyboard.) I see that you have checked out some about vaccines, adjuvants, etc. There's an issue with both the duration of immunity conferred upon cats with vaccines and also with the adjuvants. There's a lot of evidence that cats get many years of immunity with their vaccines (way more than annual and even more than three years after they have completed their first set of kitten vaccines (which I only EVER get the two FVRCP shots and the rabies shot for my kittens ... and I have kittens in this house all the time... about 15-20 or so per year.... fosters.) I will even consider the one year rabies booster and FVRCP shots, but after that it's very unnecessary for a long time. Titers can be tested to prove immunity if necessary. This has been done and the immunity is strong for many years.

Now the Leukemia vaccine is simply a horror. I also have friends who have lost their cats to sarcomas caused by the leukemia vaccine (even after surgery, chemo, etc.... all of which was compensated for by the vaccine manufacturer, by the way, since the KNOW that they need to set aside funds for the sarcomas that will be caused by their leukemia vaccine and they pay people for chemo, surgery, etc., but many many cats die.

With regard to adjuvants, I only allow my cats (when they do get vaccinated, which is not often after they've completed their first series of shots) anyway.... I only allow them to be vaccinated with the Merial Purevax non-adjuvanted vaccines, since their safety profile is better than the adjuvanted vaccines. The now have both rabies and FVRCP vaccines in the PUREVAX form. Anyway, that's just a little bit about vaccines. Let me link a few articles in the next post.
Click to expand...
Panzer has only had the rabies vaccine PUREVAX & that was only because my vet at the time 2nd vet would not take him as a patient without it. I needed them for insulin so they had me backed into a corner. He was 9yrs old at the time he will be 11 in January. They didn't require vaccines at the face clinic when he was 3-4 months old & got neutered back in 2010 so no shots ever until the rabies. Spook was neutered in 2017 & vaccines were required. He had some 4 in 1 shot then & he had a rabies shot in 2021 not the PUREVAX unfortunately. Didn't know that the rabies vaccine can cause tumors until after he alreay had the shot:banghead:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top