12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after last

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Shawny2u

Member Since 2010
I opened this new condo.
He has been dropping so far but fed after +12.5 one table spoon cooked chicken breast!
Unfortunately receive not feeding messages after he was fed very small amount of chicken (1 table spoon of chicken breast).
He was very stressed being hungry, he still is but I won't feed any more Until a few more testing!
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS no shot +10 84 +12 73 +12.5 67

Sienne and Gabby said:
Do you have extra strips?

Do you have high carb food?
Click to expand...

Have enough strips and I do have HC food.

20 minutes after the last test : 64

+10 84 +12 67 +12.5 67 +12.7 64
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS no shot +10 84 +12 73 +12.5 67 +12.7

He is asking for food, i am not feeding.
It seems he is in great stress for lack of food!!!!!
Will test in 15 minutes again.
 
Help 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS no shot +10 84 +12 73 +12.5 67 +12.

Shawny2u said:
I opened this new condo.
He has been dropping so far but fed after +12.5 one table spoon cooked chicken breast!
Unfortunately receive not feeding messages after he was fed very small amount of chicken (1 table spoon of chicken breast).
He was very stressed being hungry, he still is but I won't feed any more Until a few more testing!
Click to expand...
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS no shot +10 84 +12 73 +12.5 67 +12.7

Tubby knows you're off schedule for his breakfast. In addition, the lower numbers are causing him to be hungry.

How flexible is your schedule for tonight and tomorrow? If you're stalling, getting too far off if you don't have the flexibility with your schedule can be an issue.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS no shot +10 84 +12 73 +12.5 67 +12.7

Sienne and Gabby said:
Tubby knows you're off schedule for his breakfast. In addition, the lower numbers are causing him to be hungry.

How flexible is your schedule for tonight and tomorrow? If you're stalling, getting too far off if you don't have the flexibility with your schedule can be an issue.
Click to expand...

I'm very flexible, work from home office!
Be here at all time.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

He is OK, knows won't be any food soon.
He is quiet and I'm testing every 15 minutes.
Even after TB spoon chicken his BG is droping.

Last BG 62
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

It's more like he's surfing. When you figure in up to 20% meter variance, these are pretty much the same numbers.

Are you at +13 now?
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

Shawn, you MUST listen to what Sienne and the others are trying to tell you.

How you're dosing Tubby it's all wrong. You're giving him WAYYYYYY too much insulin to start with. You should've only given him 1u BID in the beginning, and ONLY INCREASE IT by 0.25u, NOT by 1.0u. I've never seen anyone do that before to their cats. I'm not sure if your vet suggested it, but Lantus is not like ProZinc, or Vetsulin. It's a much more gentler insulin, and cat responds better by minute increases than gallons of increases.

Lantus is a 12 hour insulin, which means that you MUST shoot every 12 hours ON TIME, unless you need to stall, which in your case you're doing. Otherwise, it's every 12 hours.

The way you're dosing him off schedule isn't conducive to regulating, either. You're not consistent with dosing on time, which is causing him to give you rollercoaster #'s, and causing him to have a panicky liver on top of it.

YOU MUST LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE!!!!

If you don't listen to others' advice, you're going to kill your cat, and you don't want that. Nor do we.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

Angela & Blackie & 8 Others said:
Shawn, you MUST listen to what Sienne and the others are trying to tell you.

How you're dosing Tubby it's all wrong. You're giving him WAYYYYYY too much insulin to start with. You should've only given him 1u BID in the beginning, and ONLY INCREASE IT by 0.25u, NOT by 1.0u. I've never seen anyone do that before to their cats. I'm not sure if your vet suggested it, but Lantus is not like ProZinc, or Vetsulin. It's a much more gentler insulin, and cat responds better by minute increases than gallons of increases.

Lantus is a 12 hour insulin, which means that you MUST shoot every 12 hours ON TIME, unless you need to stall, which in your case you're doing. Otherwise, it's every 12 hours.

The way you're dosing him off schedule isn't conducive to regulating, either. You're not consistent with dosing on time, which is causing him to give you rollercoaster #'s, and causing him to have a panicky liver on top of it.

YOU MUST LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE!!!!

If you don't listen to others' advice, you're going to kill your cat, and you don't want that. Nor do we.
Click to expand...

Hey, Listen and LISTEN good!!!!
I don't know who the heck you are but I do listen and talk to his vet , he has suggested the dosing as well as I do
what I think is right.
Please keep you non-sense to yourself if you can't be helpful.
Thank you for nothing!
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

Shawn:

Angela is expressing concerns that we have all expressed, albeit in a little more direct fashion. The vast majority of vets are unfamiliar with the clinical trial using Lantus with cats. That research has led to the development of a dosing protocol that guides what we do in this forum. When you asked for the science behind our recommendations, this information was provided in your condo and is available in the Tight Regulation stickly. Most vets are far more familiar with shorter acting types of insulin. Generalizing that knowledge/experience to Lantus can cause a disaster. Lantus works entirely differently. You are free to do what you want -- Tubby is your cat and you're holding the syringe and you will be the person responsible for those decisions. All we're doing is providing information. What you do with it is up to you.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

I'm the person who's concerned for the wellfare of your cat. My vet also has some knowledge of dosing, but only with Vetsulin and ProZinc insulins, and not with Lantus.

When my cat was first diagnosed March 13th of this year, I went with the vet's protocol, until my cat almost died on me 1 day. THAT'S when I went with this protocol, and eventually switched my cat to Lantus. Because of these people on here, I got her to where she is today. Without their help, she wouldn't be here. I shoot on a regular basis, every 12 hours. I have never stalled, and am not afraid to shoot on low #'s. I admit that I was afraid to shoot on low #'s in the beginning, but I got over that fear pretty quick because my cat needed her insulin. She's on Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets (3% carbs) each and every day, and she gets boiled chicken bites after testing, and sometimes at meal time.

When I first started her on Lantus, I started at 1u BID. I increased it according to protocol (by 0.25u) until she got to 4.75u BID. THEN, she gave me great #'s which warranted a dose decrease. She's now at 3.50u BID, and still on the same food. One day, she'll get off the insulin. Only in her time, not on mine.

Apparently, your vet's dosing protocol is more geared for ProZinc, and Vetsulin. Cats aren't like humans. Cats need minute dosing, not in the gallons that I've mentioned before. Humans can tolerate the gallons.

I suggest that you scale down the dosing and only increase/decrease the doses by 0.25u.

You need to start taking control a bit more. After all, you ARE the one with the syringe. Not your vet.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

And Shawn....please, please consider the number of cats that have gone off the juice because of the assistance from the people in this group. I bet your vet has not had that many go OTJ even if you did the numbers comparatively as a percentage. If you want the help, it is here...all that you want. But then it would make sense that if you ask for help from these very experienced people, that you would want to take their advice....they would never suggest anything that would hurt Tubby...they are very conservative. Everyone's goal is to help these kitties, help their beans, stick together and share information. It's ok to drink the kool aid here.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

Sienne and Gabby said:
Any updates?
Click to expand...

Yes, I have been posting but have been testing every 15/20 minutes.
He was dropping down to 59 tha last time I checked.
Here is the sequence, I did not shoot as of yet and may skip it altogether.

AMPS 0 +12 73 +12.5 64 from here on is about 20 minutes increase for every number:
+20 min. 62 +20 min. 59 which is the last test.

I fed him small amount of chicken breast and 1/4 can of FF with low carb high protein.
He had to have his meal, could not stall any longer.
Thanks for asking!
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

Thanks. So he's at 59 at what +time? Sorry -- it's hard for me to track exactly how far past his usual AMPS Tubby is.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

Shawn --

I'm going to have to leave shortly and didn't want you to think I just bailed on you. I've asked a few others to keep an eye on Tubby.

My thinking is that if you are past +14, it may be best to skip the shot and feed your poor cat, who is no doubt starving!. Depending on what Tubby's numbers are tonight, there will be a couple of options. If numbers are still low at +14 and you skip, you can shoot at your usual time tonight.

Please post at +11, well, if you skip it will really be at +23, and ask for input on dose. I'm thinking that Tubby may need a dose reduction but I would like for you to get others' input on this, as well.

Also, please remember to update your SS when you have a chance. It will help everyone know what Tubby's numbers looked like this morning.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

Sienne, I'm thinking that a dose reduction to 3.75u for Tubby would be a good idea, also. Or even to 3.50u. It'll give his little body some time to adjust to it, and then Shawn can go from there.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

Shawn, I agree with Sienne. Tubby's numbers are still very low at this point, and if you are at +14 already, I would skip this shot and feed Tubby.

I know you were sticking with the 4.0u dose because he hadn't technically earned the reduction yet, but I agree that he needs a reduction so that you can shoot every 12 hours. I would suggest 3.75u, since that is the next dose.

As Sienne suggested, skipping the shot this morning means that you can plan to shoot the next dose at his normal PM shot time, as long as his numbers have risen enough to shoot by that time. Getting a +23 and posting it before shot time will be helpful.
 
Re: 12/14/10 Tubby AMPS 0 +10 84 +12 73/64/62 +20 min after

copied from other thread for 12/14 for Tubby

Hi there,
I just wanted to confirm that you are using Lantus but you are not following Tilly protocol, yes?

I am asking because I had expected to see the usual increase/decrease increments of .25u or .5u, but I am seeing full unit increases. Those increases may end up causing you problems. Also, Lantus likes consistency, so from 12/5 and onwards, it's no wonder that Tubby's numbers are all over. Going from 4u to 3u to 3.5u to some other dose, is causing his shed to go nuts. I don't know if anyone's mentioned how the dosing works best on Lantus, but here is the gist of it for you:
"General" Guidelines:
--- Hold the initial starting dose for 5 - 7 days (10 - 14 cycles) unless the numbers tell you otherwise. Kitties experiencing high flat curves or prone to ketones may want to increase the starting dose after 3 days (6 cycles).
--- Each subsequent dose is held for a minimum of 3 days (6 cycles) unless kitty earns a reduction (See: Reducing the dose...).
--- Adjustments to dose are based on nadirs with only some consideration given to preshot numbers.

Increasing the dose...
--- Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose.
--- After 3 consecutive days (6 cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.
--- After 3 consecutive days (6 cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.

Reducing the dose...
--- If kitty drops below 40 (long term diabetic) or 50 (newly diagnosed diabetic) reduce the dose by 0.25 unit. If kitty has a history of not holding reductions well or if reductions are close together... sneak the dose down by shaving the dose rather than reducing by a full quarter unit. Alternatively, at each newly reduced dose... try to make sure kitty maintains numbers in the normal range for seven days before reducing the dose further.

--- If an attempted reduction fails, go right back up to the last good dose.
--- Try to go from 0.25u to 0.1u before stopping insulin completely.

Random Notes...
Because of the cumulative nature of Lantus and Levemir:
An early shot = a dose increase.
A late shot = a dose reduction.

A "cycle" refers to the period of time between shots. There are 2 cycles in one day when shooting twice a day.

Sometimes a dose will need to be "fine tuned" by adding some "fat" or "skinny-ing up" the dose.


Anyways, I wanted to be sure that you understood the food thing, about not feeding until you have made a decision to give a shot or not.

The reason that everyone says no food for 2hours prior to your normal shot time, at +12, is so that there is no food in the cat`s system that can give you a false high number when you test at ps. It's perfectly fine to have the food all ready to give to the cat but don't. Get your ps BG number and see where you are.

If the number is something that makes you pause, do not feed. There is nothing wrong in waiting 15min and testing again because you want to see a rising number, and that number must be a pure, not food affected, number. If the next test at +12.25 is lower, keep waiting and do not feed. Test again in another 15min.

When you give even a tiny piece of food, the body will take that food and possibly give you a rising number in the next test, so you will think oh good, the number's rising, but it's still not that safe to shoot because that food will wear off quickly, and the numbers may start to drop again. And you will then be looking at wanting the numbers to rise before that Lantus kicks in after a couple hours following the shot.

So, keep testing on the empty stomach until you have decided, shoot or no shot. Then slap down the food and give the shot or record no shot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top