11/9 Squamee AMPS 402 1.2U

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judy and squamee(GA)

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Not a good morning. She refused the pill (and I have been raving about flortiflora!) at first, even though she was hungry. She eventually took it, but I think maybe she associates it with the mouth pain it usually precipitates (because, I guess, by the time she gets it the last pill has worn off?) and I don't think it is going to work too much longer. That makes me feel quite desperate. I really don't know how I can fight with her 3x/day---and not be all that successful at getting it into her, either. I am going to start calling pharmacies today about compounding it, but that has not been too successful in the past.
And the numbers are going up again. Do I keep following them up? She has never had higher than 1.2U.
Am wondering what is going on and if perhaps her kidneys are involved. She is eating and drinking a lot, especially drinking. She is also not active, spending most of her days lying on the couch. Will talk to the vet.
 
boat load of things hmmm? the higher numbers may be due to pain right..if she's refusing her pain pill (is that what she's refusing)
i would say yes you ought to shoot the numbers. only exception to that rule would be a high rebound number due to a really low or hypo #. in that case NEVER shoot the #. in this case yes shoot the number.
i can't imagine refusing a pain pill :lol: but am wracking my mind to think of clever ways to get it into her. is it capsule? could it be grinded and give analy? (STOP! i know it's gross)
but some drugs can be given that way. i'd post the pill problem on health as i've seen dr. lisa give a whole sermon on it sometime back and maybe someone bookmarked it. or you could pm 'lisa dvm' and ask her.
 
i just put a search out in community and health. see if you want to called 'remember the funny about how to pill a cat' but it goes on to what came of that thread.
 
HOW TO PILL A CAT.

Pick cat up and cradle it in the crook of your left arm as if holding a baby. Position right forefinger and thumb on either side of cat's mouth and gently apply pressure to cheeks while holding pill in right hand. As cat opens mouth pop pill into mouth. Allow cat to close mouth and swallow.

Retrieve pill from floor and cat from behind sofa. Cradle cat in left arm and repeat process.

Retrieve cat from bedroom, and throw soggy pill away.

Take new pill from foil wrap, cradle cat in left arm holding rear paws tightly with left hand. Force jaws open and push pill to back of mouth with right forefinger. Hold mouth shut for a count of ten.

Retrieve pill from goldfish bowl and cat from top of wardrobe. Call spouse from garden.

Kneel on floor with cat wedged firmly between knees, hold front and rear paws. Ignore low growls emitted by cat. Get spouse to hold head firmly with one hand while forcing wooden ruler into mouth. Drop pill down ruler and rub cat's throat vigorously.

Retrieve cat from curtain rail, get another pill from foil wrap. Make note to buy new ruler and repair curtains. Carefully sweep shattered Doulton figurines from hearth and set to one side for gluing later.

Wrap cat in large towel and get spouse to lie on cat with head just visible from below armpit. Put pill in end of drinking straw, force mouth open with pencil and blow down drinking straw.

Check label to make sure pill not harmful to humans, drink glass of water to take taste away. Apply Band-Aid to spouse's forearm and remove blood from carpet with cold water and soap.

Retrieve cat from neighbor's shed. Get another pill. Place cat in cupboard and close door onto neck to leave head showing. Force mouth open with dessert spoon. Flick pill down throat with elastic band.

Fetch screwdriver from garage and put door back on hinges. Apply cold compress to cheek and check records for date of last tetanus shot. Throw tee-shirt away and fetch new one from bedroom.

Call fire department to retrieve cat from tree across the road. Apologize to neighbor who crashed into fence while swerving to avoid cat. Take last pill from foil-wrap.

Tie cat's front paws to rear paws with garden twine and bind tightly to leg of dining table, find heavy duty pruning gloves from shed, force cat's mouth open with small wrench. Push pill into mouth followed by large piece of filet mignon. Hold head vertically and pour ½ pint of water down throat to wash pill down.

Get spouse to drive you to the emergency room, sit quietly while doctor stitches fingers and forearm and removes pill remnants from right eye. Call furniture store on way home to order new table.
 
judy and squamee said:
And the numbers are going up again. Do I keep following them up? She has never had higher than 1.2U.
You gave 1.4 a short while ago at night. She dropped and you did a no-shoot the next morning. This is not to say that the same thing would happen again - it may have been a "wow" drop. But it was a .2u jump in dose [I realize you were probably following a scale *I* had recommended]. So if you do continue to raise the dose I would do it .1u at a time. That way when she does drop, hopefully she will drop less and you will be less likely to really chicken out. :-D

When H would start a rising trend, I always felt I was a dose or two behind. I did have a good ceiling dose that I thought I knew would bring him back down which we thought for you used to be 1.2u but that's not really held well lately.

I'm just hoping 1.2u will help her back down.

EDIT: Basically I recommend continuing to raise the dose until the kitty responds with even PSs or a slight drop. If even PSs then raise the dose just one more increment and hopefully the will come down. If they are already coming down [hopefully slowly] keep giving that dose until they drop into a better range then perhaps think about reducing by an increment [or more if they drop faster than expected desired]. And meanwhile, during any important data collection periods, trying to an eye on nadirs and other periods to make sure nothing too crazy is happening.

Sorry to hear the pilling is not working currently. grrr
 
Whoops! I forgot about that 1.4.
So for today
AMPS 402 1.2U
+2 286
+4 151
+6 216
So the 1.2 seems to have worn off faster than I expected. I took her to the vet this am after a lot of vomiting. He found nothing, but did blood work and gave her a shot of phenobarb. She certainly did not like having the blood drawn. I know that would make her BG go up then, but does it last? (In other works, does emotional upset make duration shorter?). I am not sure how to factor that in for dose tonight--makes me inclined, unless you say otherwise, to be more conservative in raising the dose above 1.2 (unless the numbers go way up)
 
did no one LOL with my how to pill a cat post?
i was laughing so much i actually did LOL
 
A SHOT of phenobarb???!

You can give shots too! I give IM injections [with the same insulin syringes most use here]. That would solve the problem?

Unless the numbers shot way up - you noticed a spike from at or after the vet then I would think the upset didn't really play a roll.

Lori, I loled a little. :-D Not like a big fat LOL but you know a little lol.
Booty bumping a kitty - now that's an image!
 
Lori, I DID laugh. But I was pressed for time, so I have to go back and savor it.
Yes, Gator! A shot!!! I will ask the vet later today about my giving her shots! (oh god, that would be great ).
 
I'm, in the 1.3 camp for tonight if she goes up much more as I would suspect she will. If for some strange reason she stayed at 350 tonight then 350 from 402 is not a bad drop [actually about perfect drop] and 1.2 would be the dose. But MAN 350 at +9! If still no drop in PS then maybe go to 1.4 tomorrow morning?
 
but it is a nice curve...just want a little more bang for your buck.
 
Vet said phenob. injections would be very expensive and probably too concentrated a dose for a regular basis---they use it for cat's having an epileptic seizure.
Some blood results:
creatine was 2.6 in sept, now 3.3
urea nitrogen was 33 in Sept. now 70
specific gravity 10.28
He told me this stuff on the phone and I am not familiar with these things, so I may have gotten some things wrong. He is not concerned about the kidney stuff, which he says is only mildly elevated. Do you agree?
He wants me to bring her in tomorrow for subQ fluids. Says she is dehydrated, but that can be from the unregulated BG and lots of peeing.
I will ask for a copy of the test results then.
Will post her +12 BG shortly.
 
If you do the SubQ fluids [LRS] make sure to have them give you a lesson! This is another thing you can do on your own. Let me know if you would like my preferred equipment and where to purchase.

A little bit of an elevated BUN seems to happen sometimes with cats on a higher protein diet. The "normal" or average range includes cats that are not on higher protein diets. The "N" in BUN stands for "nitrogen" which is a metabolite of protein. Since cats don't drink alcohol they only get their calories from fat, carbs and protein. Generally, if you lower the carbs the balloon goes out to fat and protein. Wellness happens to really balloon the fat...

Is 3.3 out of range for creatine? If so that's a little different. If she really is dehydrated then I'm not sure the roll that would play in any of those elevated numbers.

IMHO, SubQ LRS is something EVERY cat owner should have on hand and know how to use. It's relatively cheap too.

You can call Costco pharmacy and ask how much phenobarbital injectable really is. It help to google phenobarbital and find out as much about the injectable as possible [concentration etc] before calling. I don't know about the too concentrated bit - I would make sure to to your own research on that. Sounds fishy to me but I have a very well [some might say overly] developed mis-trust of the vets.
 
judy check out the thread in health where i asked for the funny how to pill a cat thing. dr. lisa herself came around and gave her advice.
 
Big LOL Lori!!!! I saw something similar posted years ago at a vet's office and I was in stitches. That one had something like this on the flip side of the paper:

"How to Pill a Dog:

1) Wrap pill in bacon
2) Give to dog"

:lol:
 
:lol: :lol: :lol: no,----how to pill a dog. wrap in bacon, toss in air :lol: :lol:
i was near in tears reading the pilling a cat.
 
Lori,
That was the funniest thing I've read in a long time- I was almost crying and definitely LOL :lol: :lol: ! Thank you, you made my night!
 
and definitely have them show you how to do SQ fluids. Its been a life saver for my boys. It is a primitive way of doing "dialysis" to help the struggling kidneys get rid of waste products in the body, through osmosis. the bad stuff goes out with the extra water.

Cody should get fluids daily for his megacolon, as a result his kidneys are still in pretty good shape.
 
I absolutely cannot believe this! I managed to get her to eat the pill--using a suggestion from Dr. Lisa included in that posting about not liking the humor---I added parmesan cheese to the fortiflora mix that I roll the pill pocket in--and congratulated myself when she finally ate it. And now, maybe 10 minutes later, she vomited up the pill!!! No food or anything else, just the pill, still in the pill pocket. Does that mean it somehow got stuck in her throat?

So now I appreciate the humor even more. Someone should somehow add this to that list!
Today's numbers
AMPS 402 1.2U
+2 286
+4 151
+6 216
+ 8.75 350
PMPS 417 1.3U
+3.25 235
+4.25 179
 
no it means you add it to the list above of how to pill a cat.
you see, you can not win...the cat wins every time!!!!!! ohmygod_smile

this would go under,
clean vomit from carpet, examine pill to see if any was digested. get another pill from foil wrapper and start at number 1 again.
 
not in my opinion. the nadir is not too low.
and dr lisa commented on that thread about squamee throwing up.
 
Lori, I think she was referring to the phenom I noticed, that as the dose gets higher the nadir moves later... Yes?

actually +4/+5 is very typical, and obviously is influenced by the meal schedule, and in my experience, moved around between +4 one day, then +8 another day. I had a hard time pinning it down. As time went on ( and dose rose) it did move toward +8 most of the time.

As for your question about whether it indicates she needs more, I have to leave that for somebody better with low dose cats- The 1.2u dose kitties make me nailbite_smile , NO EXPERIENCE here ;-)
 
judy, nancy....oh god, i meant to say yes the dose may have been too low, not, no the dose is'nt too low. my post above does'nt even make sense. my brain is not fully functional sometimes... :sad:
 
let me go check wher she wrote about squamee throwing up..brb
 
go to health, go to the thread about pilling the cat...her's is the very last comment.
 
Just to throw a little wrench in things, at times an early nadir can also be a sign the dose is too high (particularly when you are seeing a low-ish nadir I think). Although there may be a PZ pattern that is the reverse, just wanted to throw that out, so there's no confusion that early nadir always = dose is too low. I don't have much early nadir experience, it's never been Bix's thing I guess, but I have seen that with some cats that have come through here - a lowish # at like +3 or +4 and then higher #s after that (not necessarily rebound #s), and you lower the dose a hair and don't see the dramatic early drop, but see a gentler drop to a decent, slightly later, nadir. I don't recall if they were PZI Vet or ProZinc kitties, but I think it goes to the "no clearcut formula" in interpreting #s that aren't crystal clear. Not to confuse things too much. :-D
 
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