11/2 & 11/3 Lucky- checking in

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all4mymarine

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Well, I've been following the scale and gathering data and even though we got a yellow PS last night (yay!), things still aren't looking that great. I increased each level up .1 from the last scale that was posted after seeing how he did on the new vial. Things seem awfully flat for the most part with a blue nadir every couple of days or once a week. This is driving me nuts, for real.

Any ideas???
 
Re: 11/2 Lucky- checking in

Some better pre shots but would be nice to see lower numbers mid cycle. I think increasing the scale is a good idea.

I know you are frustrated. You have really tried a lot of different things but nothing is consistent with him.

You didn't find a vet in the Springs who would prescribe Lantus or Levemir, right?
 
Re: 11/2 Lucky- checking in

Well, I haven't tried to find a new vet yet because I decided to give a new vial of ProZinc a try first. I think we are going to have to try Lantus or Levemir though :YMSIGH:

Even with a 295 preshot, I know the nadir wasn't as low as it should have been because the +5.5 was 228. I just don't understand because in the beginning he was getting greens and I had to back off the dose of 1u! Ugh. If you look back at the beginning everything was fine till I started increasing the dose. Even on 1.1 he didn't respond as well. Ever since then, things have been basically how they are right now. I still get a feeling (based on that) that he doesn't like the higher doses. That one description I remember reading of chronic rebound said that you'll see higher flatter numbers and occasional lower numbers but then it'll go right back to high flat numbers. Well that's pretty much what he's been doing. Every 4 days to a week he'll see a blue and then it's back to higher numbers, even if I shoot the same dose on the same PS when I got the blue before!

Part of me feels like I should try going back to 1u, especially since I have the new vial now. I'm going to increase the scale .1u again and see if it makes a difference for a few days. If not, I'm dropping back to see what happens. I can always go back to the scale. If anybody has any ideas or comments about this, I would love to hear them!
 
Re: 11/2 Lucky- checking in

I just read the same thing, while trying to answer a new thread in Health. I still have the tabs open, so I'll give you the links!

Somogyii rebound, or insulin resistance, or glucose toxicity.... not the same thing, but any could be the problem. All caused by too much insulin, and too high BG for too long a time.

Makes my head spin.... confused_cat

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound

http://www.caninediabetes.org/insulinresistance.html

http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes this last one is Dr. Lisa's site, and the info is about 1/4 down the page under the "Basics of Diabetes" section. Pretty gross picture just below it of a kitty pancreas...
Type 2 is characterized by two problems. The first, as in Type 1, is a diminished ability of the pancreas to secrete insulin. The second issue is one of insulin resistance. In other words, the receptors on the cell wall that would normally open the door to the cell to let the glucose in when insulin 'knocks', stop 'listening' to the insulin. The cells 'resist' the signal that the circulating insulin is sending and the glucose is not transferred to the inside of the cell, resulting in an elevated blood glucose (hyperglycemia) and cellular 'starvation'. The elevated blood glucose, in turn, sends a signal to the pancreas telling it to secrete more insulin. The elevated insulin may somewhat override the insulin resistance resulting in more glucose entering the cells, but eventually the pancreas can become exhausted or 'burned out'.

Glucose toxicity results from chronic hyperglycemia. Glucose toxicity wreaks havoc on the entire body - especially the pancreas and its insulin-producing cells. A vicious cycle then ensues as the insulin-producing cells are damaged resulting in less insulin being produced.

Her site is awesome, but a lot to absorb in one sitting. I've got it bookmarked!

Carl
 
Re: 11/2 Lucky- checking in

Carl, yes that petdiabetes wiki is where I read that too. I have read that article over and over. I did do the dose reduction trial but I'm not sure I stuck with it long enough. Maybe a lower dose sliding scale might work because I haven't tried that. I'm sure 1u wouldn't work the same on a 350 PS as it would a 425 PS. I just want to get back to those good results we had in the very beginning. The beginning is usually when people have a hard time getting good results but that's when we had the best ones! I want to see a green, dang it! lol It almost feels like he IS resistant to the insulin.

What to do, what to do? This is exactly my dilemma from before! Higher dose vs. lower dose.

I'll keep with a higher dose for a few more cycles then I think I'm gonna have to give in.
 
Re: 11/2 Lucky- checking in

I'm hoping that some of the more experienced people will see this and give us their thoughts too.
Carl
 
Re: 11/2 Lucky- checking in

Yes, he got better numbers at lower doses. I do remember we went back once, but didn't get much response.

Usually (tho there is that $&!? ECID thing) you see some decent response to a lower dose pretty fast after the reduction if you are looking at rebound. And often rebound involves some lower numbers in with the high ones. I have always had trouble distinguishing rebound from bouncing.

No problem here with trying that and holding it longer as long if you test daily for ketones. Lowering insulin on a kitty who is in high numbers is always a risk. And ketones are scary.
 
Re: 11/2 Lucky- checking in

I did read that it could take up to 3 days for a bounce (rebound, whatever! lol) to clear so I really don't think I held 1u long enough with the dose reduction trial. I decreased instead and maybe too quickly because it might not have been enough insulin. I think starting with 1u and using a scale from there sounds good to me. Maybe that's what he needed all along because one dose doesn't fit all PS's. I remember doing something like a sliding scale in the beginning and changing his dose according to some PS's. I feel like I blew it on that 295 PS, I should have decreased then :YMSIGH:

He did actually have some weird numbers a couple of times. I've never seen extremely low numbers but that article did say that you didn't necessarily need low numbers to have a rebound problem. I know he can have good numbers, I've seen them, so it is very frustrating!

I'll try to check for ketones, I stressed myself and Lucky out soooo badly trying to do that last time. He such a hard kitty to stalk and catch. It's not that I don't want to but it's an ALL day job for one test. The gravel in the litter box didn't work either. I checked out the blood ketone meter and it's not expensive, but the strips are.

So, here with go with more experimenting, yay.... :roll:

Oh, we got an AMPS of 418 and I shot 1.7 this morning. Depending on how today goes will determine what I decide to do tonight.
 
Ebay is usually the first place I look for stuff like that. Last week I didn't see any good auctions for the strips but I'll check again.

Yeah, it's looking like too much insulin. Today's numbers are just horrible. I know it wasn't a fur shot either. +6 was 316.
 
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