11/10 Gracie PMPS 324 +2 328 +4 334

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Marje and Gracie

Marje and Gracie

Member Since 2010
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Yesterday: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29398

Recap: NEW PEN
AMPS: 323
+2:102 (Manie Dive) fed1 tsp 5%
+2.5: 60 1 tsp 9% gravy
+3: 49 1 tsp 9%
+3.5: 49 1 tsp 9%/gravy
+4: 75
+4.5: 65 1 tsp 1%
+5: 59 1 tsp 1%
+5.5: 79
+6.5: 137
+11: 313
PMPS: 311 DOSE REDUCTION to .75u (from f.75u)
+2: 223
+4: 169
+5: 217

Happy Hump Day!!!! Last day of TBP this week since tomorrow is Vet's Day.

WCR: Super duper!! Gracie has advanced to doing handstands into her garbage can and then curls herself up into the tiniest ball at the bottom and all you can see
are her beautiful big brown eyes. She gets very inpatients on mornings when I am up really early to go to TBP because everyone else gets to eat but she has to wait...then I remind her that she ate at 4:30 am and they didn't....she isn't buying it.

Question for Michelle and Ann but anyone else can jump in, too: We're trying to feed these curves as she drops quickly but Gracie is so high carb responsive that, as you can see from yesterday, even 9% makes her skyrocket. It really takes some figurin' out to get her to surf....if she gets below 50, we need to get her up but we have to be careful or she loses the surf. We've stopped testing every 15 mins when her numbers are low so we can give the food a chance to work (thanks, Ann for the suggestion to wait longer than 15). That helps...but, for instance, yesterday, I got a high number at AMPS so I gve her 1% and then she started diving...when she dove, we up the % to 5 knowing her response to carbs. Anyway...you see the pattern. Any advice?

Question for anyone who knows: We are feeding the PS, +1, +2, +3 and +9 schedule but we are not getting rid of the high PS numbers for the most part. This is very discouraging and I know they are typically bounce numbers but I wonder if it also means her pancreas is not kicking in...or perhaps even if it is, it can't override the glycogen the liver releases? I know others are dealing with this and we've been patiently (ok...maybe not a good word to use for me) waiting the "snap" but is there something else we can do to get the PSs lower...keep her at a higher dose until she flattens out more? However, it seems if she's at a higher dose and she's nosediving, then she's bouncing hard, right?? HELP :lol: :lol:

Will have to check condos later...my long post has put me behind. Thanks and have a great day!!!!
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337

wow - another pink kitty - I wonder if someone called a party up there...

on the food. It sometimes is such a guessing game for me - on which carb food to feed when Mannie starts to drop. Alot depends on what number he is at when the drop starts, and how much was the drop. Sometimes I guess wrong and I break the surf. The only difference I would have made in what you did yesterday was the +2 feed. For Mannie a 200 point drop is an auto grab for the HC. I would have done the same with the +2.5, +3, +4. I would have done what you did with the rest of the cycle. I look at what result I got from one test to the next, adjust the carb % based on what I know of his reaction to foods. Most of the time it works, there are time however when his internal parts are in control, and off he goes - sometimes you just can't avoid the skyrockets. and yes on the waiting more than 15 minutes - the only time I will do that is if he hits the 30's - way too low, and that you do need to watch more closely. On the high ps mornings - it seems to be the last number to come down - been fighting that one since day one of this battle. There is a term for it: morning something-or-other, i can't remember... Mannie does it, as do others. I know for him that maintaining that +9 snack as lowered the ps numebrs over all.

I hope that helps. I know Mannie is not as carb sensitive as Gracie, and I can get away with feeding a high % carb on a dive. I really have to look at the cycle, how it's progressing, what numbers I have, what to feed to hold a test number/surf, what to feed, or not, to get it lower if need be.

Having said that - Gracie: lower please! And bring Mannie with you. :-D
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337

After reading Gracie's SS I have to say I believe her pancreas IS working. There is still a bit of liver training school going on though since she bounces from her lows.

You have been steadily lowering Gracie's dose which is a good thing... And maybe that is just what you must continue doing. As a newly diagnosed kitty, those numbers below 50 say "dose reduction!" You've been shaving the dose. Is there a reason you don't take the regular 0.25u decreases? I am guessing it is because there may have been one time that she didn't hold a reduction and you had to go back up. Then after that decided to shave instead. ??

Lately Gracie has been able to reduce her dose every couple of days. To me that says pancreas is trying to work here. I know the pre-shots are still high but they seem to be the results of the lows... bouncy bouncy. That liver is still learning.

It is such a balancing act between doses, low numbers, food- HC & LC, and handling the resulting bounce. I hope as you and Gracie step down the dose ladder, she will even out a little more.

The most important thing I see is... Yes, her pancreas is doing some stuff here! It isn't all the exogenous insulin. Otherwise you couldn't lower these doses as you have been. Ya' know what I mean? So hold the course and keep trying for the dose reductions. :-D
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337

The only thing I would add to what Michelle and CD said is that you may want to try to not let Gracie earn a dose reduction. If you can keep the insulin dose at a point (or even raise it) to where you're getting green mid-cycle numbers and mostly blue pre-shots that would be great. At some point, Gracie will force you to reduce the dose. This is what I do with Gabby. I really try to not let her earn a reduction. I want her cycles to flatten out. Compared to where she was some time ago, this has been happening (although, she's bouncing a bit lately). The downside is that you have to monitor but between you and Mike, you're doing that.

You might want to PM Jill. She's the strategist behind this approach and Alex is also very carb sensitive. She may have some insight to offer in addition to what others are suggesting.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337

No advice here ... we deal with the same frustrations with mocha .. she won't come up she won't come up she won't come up and then bam she's off to the races .. she never just surfs .. I can understand your frustration ... hopefully we'll get this figured out ... try and have a good day guys!
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337

i'd be happy to fwd the pm's michelle and ann sent us...i'm sure they wouldn't mind. seems to have had a big impact on the brat prince.

celi
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294

Dh here - It looks like the little chupacabra is going to give me a break this morning. She's busy watching the Wild Kingdom episode going on in the front yard. The hawks are feasting on my quail flock and Gracie seems to think its just awesome. Shes got a big foam finger that says "Go Hawks". I guess carnivores have to stick together.

Celi - I'm sure Marjorie would love any info you could forward to us. Thanks.

Sienne, CD, and Michelle - Thanks for the info. Marjorie is the brains in our outfit, I'm just Festus to her Matt Dillon. I'm sure she'll be on soon this morning with comments.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294

Chiming in a little late here. Pretty much ditto on what everyone else has said. The only thing I do that's a little different is not to try to bump her up in the 50s and 60s, 40s yes I want Tess up a bit, but 50s and 60s I try to leave her be. MC or even the upper end of LC seem to turn on the jets for Tess. It seems like once she starts to go up Mr. L wakes uo, goes oh yeah, we need more juice, takes over and BOING!

I do have to be really diligent about keeping track of where she is though, because things can turn back around. Generally I want 2 hours of no added food before I feel it is a safe surf.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294

Just want to add that when in the cycle this is happening, and how fast is really important too. Early on fast drops get more aggressive feeding, in small more frequent meals. So, instead of giving her regular mini meal for a big +2 drop, I'll give a half sized meal of slightly higher carbs and check back in half an hour, see how well that slowed her or not and give the second half of the meal w/ adjusted carbs.

For Tess at least, late cycle drops are monitored w/ just touches of LC if she is dropping really fast.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305

DH here - Back in pink at +4. she really doesn't want any of my lovingly administered ear pokes today.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305

Hi Mike, thank you so much for the quick response...and thank you marjorie for all that info. fantastic. i think tom's due for a diet change too!
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294

Just checking in quick from work. Thank you all so much!! Great suggestions!

Michelle: I've been trying to fashion Gracie's curve after what you do with Mannie. At one point, I tried HC (13%) to slow her drop when I got one like +2 yesterday and she went right back up and wouldn't come down...that's why I had Mike try 5%...which didn't work either so maybe we need to try the 9% when she's dropping fast and see if that helps. Yes...I do recheck every 15 if she's in the 30's but that has happened often. I think you are referring to the "Dawn Effect" in the mornings...We've been trying to look at what her number is in the cycle....if I get a 60 at +5, I won't feed that as her nadir is usually +6. We keep trying to fine tune it...difficult but your insight is always helpful.

CD: I've only just started shaving her because she hasn't held her reductions when I took her down .25u per the protocol. I talked to Libby about the shaved reductions and she agreed. Glad you think her pancreas is doing something....I had a few low PSs and I thought "FINALLY Mr. P getting in the game" but now they are up again :roll:

Sienne: I actually mentioned that to Mike today....that I should perhaps take her back up a bit and see if she'll flatten out even if it means we are up with her more through the night. Great suggestion and I will also PM Jill. Thank you!

Celi: would LOVE to have the info they sent as Mike and I were just talking this morning about the difference in Binks and how his numbers have flattened.

Ann: If Tess is at 55 at +3...you don't feed? You just recheck? Mike and I discussed two ways to do it...don't feed and recheck in 15 or do feed something LC and recheck in 30. Yesterday we opted for the latter. Maybe next time we need to do what you are doing. Of course, yesterday she dropped in the 40s so he had to bump her up. And yes....if she's dropping, we don't feed the minimeals the same..we cut down and feed every 30 with %carbs depending on what she's doing and where she is.

Anne and Devon: Always a pleasure to see you all in our condo. I do watch Mocha, too, Devon and see you have the same issues. How's MUFFIN??? I'm so glad you're checking in, Anne...we do miss you and the daily Muffin stories. How's she eating?
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305

No advice..just lots of support for Miss Gracie. Come on down to a yellow today Miss Gracie.

I love Mike's description of Gracie watching the Wild Kingdom in the front yard. :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305

Ann: If Tess is at 55 at +3...you don't feed? You just recheck? Mike and I discussed two ways to do it...don't feed and recheck in 15 or do feed something LC and recheck in 30. Yesterday we opted for the latter.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention 55, just tested her and there she was. But, the +3 ~55 I would feed some LC, probably around 4 or 5%, because she is still getting breffis or dinner then. The next consideration is if this is a rising or falling number, if falling definitely fedd w/ a touch of gravy from 9% to 10% food. It all really depends on what her number were before and what effect what she has been fed before has. Also Tess has a pretty early nadir, +3 to +5. That makes a difference too.

What I meant was that if she is in the mid 50s to 60s I don't make an extra effort to bump her up more. So, I may have just made a liar out of my self, I'm out of practice these last few days and Tess caught me off guard. She had come up from 50 at +4 w/a very small snack of 5% and a whiff of 9%. An hour later only up 5 points, decision time, I gave her a touch of the same because she really wasn't up much and the insulin had only just kicked in. Now in an hour if she is still in the same range I probably won't feed, or wouldn't if I didn't have class today. The point is that I'm not working to move her up at this point, just keep her from dropping again. Some peeps are very nervous in the 50s, but I know if i monitor she can surf there safely. But that is Tess and we have the data to knnow where she goes.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305

Tena...thanks for checking in..definitely like Wild Kingdom in our yard...it is very common to have the bobcat, javelina, coyotes, and sometimes deer around,too :lol: :lol:

Ann...thank you for clarification. We do go back to the SS and try to see what she did last time she was at a number and what we did so we can
figure it out but she doesn't always do the same thing :lol: :lol: Our girl keeps us on our toes!!! This is helpful though.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305

Aww, thanks Marjorie. I'm still having trouble getting Muffin to eat as much as I would like her to, but her weight is still good, so some days I've just been letting her go with a bit less. I did that the last 2 days, so today I'm really forcing the issue, gave cypro this morning and she finally ate a full serving of food. I'm going to test her 4 hrs after that (3pm) She's really been feeling good tho, lots and lots of playing going on, early morning, late morning, and at night, so I'm just thrilled about that. Thanks for asking! :YMHUG:
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305

From Sienne:

If you can keep the insulin dose at a point (or even raise it) to where you're getting green mid-cycle numbers and mostly blue pre-shots that would be great. At some point, Gracie will force you to reduce the dose.
Click to expand...

I would love to have her at a level where I'm getting green mid cycle and mostly blue preshots. From looking at our SS, do any of the advisors think I can do that at f.75u or back up to sk1u....knowing there literally is only one drop between them and it's a small drop because I've been working intently and practicing on this microdosing using the "counting the drops" method. If you think sk1u, can I start that right away even though I decreased her last night to .75 so she's only had .75u for two cycles. I'm thinking it would not be a big deal because we're well within the range of increase/decrease by .25u but I don't want to goof up her shed. So questions are:
1. what dose appears to advisors that I can hopefully keep her a green mid cycles and blue PS; the last dose she was doing this at was sk1u (pls note that the 2nd cycle of 11/5 was messed up due to contraband but then she had the worse bounce) and
2. when is the soonest I can increase to that dose without messing up her shed?

Thank you!!!
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305 DOSING ???

hi there!
any new numbers since the +4/305?
you know how much I like the +11 :-D
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305 DOSING ???

Ok, I sent out a call for some others.

If this was my kitty, I might try to hold on to the 0.75u for a little longer. I say this because in my opinion (for what it's worth) Gracie seems to be bouncing from not only the greens but she seems to bounce from the blues too.
So today she is still in a bounce mode and increasing the dose "might" continue this pattern.

Having said that, Sienne had a valid approach about increasing (or going back to the previous dose) to squash the numbers down until you see blue preshots. I'm not sure which way Gracie might go. If she keeps bouncing it might be hard to get blue preshots to green nadirs without some pink/red thrown in there. You know? But sometimes that works too.

She's a cat and will do it her own way. The difference between the .75u and the skinny 1.00u isn't enough to really mess up the shed too much either way.... too much or too little.

So I guess I didn't answer your question with a yes or no, did I?
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305 +11 325 DOSING ???

DH here - 325 at +11. Marjorie is on her way home from work, and we shoot in about 45 minutes. Still not sure what would be the best dose.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305 +11 325 DOSING ???

Got a coin? Rock paper scissors?

If is was me... since it is night time.... and if I was full of coffee... I'd shoot the skinny 1.00u because of the icky Pinks.
If I was already yawning... I'd shoot the 0.75u and hold this dose to see if it is a good dose when the bounce clears.

What do you think?

This is a kitty and 'best dose' is very slippery. Best guess is as good as you are going to get. :?
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie AMPS 337 +2 294 +4 305 +11 325 DOSING ???

welllll, I for sure would not increase the dose yet. She's bouncing from the 49 and you need to wait until the bounce clears to see where she lands on her own. Give it a couple more cycles (it looks like her bounces are lasting 4-6 cycles). I would wait until then, at least, before deciding to increase again.

In my opinion, Gracie is still too new at this to worry a lot about pink preshots and bounces. Relax! Bounces happen, and for most cats you'll see the bounces getting shorter and lower. Focus on getting the nadirs in the non-bounce cycles where you want them, and things will flatten out. Yes, you might have to increase again to get there, or you might not. The famous Jojo used to call Lantus the Zen insulin because you can't chase the numbers, you just have to wait for them to come to you. We do a little more chasing now than we used to, but you have to keep the Zen in mind. Sometimes trying to rush will just make the numbers worse.

When a cat has been bouncing for a while and doesn't stop (like Tess and Mannie and Gabby), then you do need to get more aggressive. In my opinion, Grace isn't at that point yet.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie PMPS 324

Ok...shot .75u per Libby. Will be patient....I certainly don't want to mess her up....just hard to see her in pink like that for so long...this has been one of her
pinkest days.

Thanks CD for chiming in.

Anne...glad Muffin is feeling so great and she ate for you. Little stinker that you had to give her cypro again. Pls keep us posted on how she is doing. And thanks for the bump friend!

Roni...Mike got the +11 for you :lol: After that string of ugly numbers and looking at Gracie's SS, we just decided to give her a testing break....not something we do often but did today. We'll get back into the +2, +4, +5/or +6 testing tonight esp if she decides to clear this bounce. Thank you!
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie PMPS 324

Good luck guys! There are so many variables in this sugar dance... what a game we play. I think you've received some very good opinions from alot of folks. But I especially like what Libby has written. Zen - well said.

I know how tough is to look at pink numbers, especially after a few really good cycles. It is so hard to ride out the bounces. not my favorite thing... but they do lessen and they do get less severe. I think Gracie is doing really really well.

on the food - it just takes some experimenting to know which food to grab. It has taken me some time to learn what he will do with a certain %, factoring in the size of the drop, and the BG number. you'll get there with Gracie - trial and error. I think you've done great with her - :-D and I'm with Ann on finding a 50 number acceptable. you are right: it is all so difficult.

Have a great night! I hope for great cycle for Gracie tonight. YES!
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie PMPS 324

hi there! i wanted to address your earlier questions and reply to your PM here.

We're trying to feed these curves as she drops quickly but Gracie is so high carb responsive that, as you can see from yesterday, even 9% makes her skyrocket. It really takes some figurin' out to get her to surf....if she gets below 50, we need to get her up but we have to be careful or she loses the surf. We've stopped testing every 15 mins when her numbers are low so we can give the food a chance to work (thanks, Ann for the suggestion to wait longer than 15). That helps...but, for instance, yesterday, I got a high number at AMPS so I gve her 1% and then she started diving...when she dove, we up the % to 5 knowing her response to carbs. Anyway...you see the pattern. Any advice?
Click to expand...

i'm not seeing any real carb sensitivity going on here. imho, the rise yesterday was simply a bounce from the 40s. gracie is still in the bouncy stage.

you'll almost always see a nice rise every single time a carb sensitive kitty is fed. feeding a very small piece of freeze dried chicken or bonito flakes will make a carb sensitive kitty's numbers rise even from low numbers. lol!

--- what makes you think gracie is carb sensitive?
--- how much of a rise will she get by +1 after consuming lc at amps (and how much lc was fed?)
--- how much of a rise will she get from having been fed a lc treat?
--- how many ounces of canned food do you feed per day?

We are feeding the PS, +1, +2, +3 and +9 schedule but we are not getting rid of the high PS numbers for the most part.
Click to expand...
the first thing i would do is stop feeding at +9. feeding a meal/snack at +9 will stimulate the pancreas to do it's job "IF" kitty has a sputtering/lazy pancreas when they're close to going OTJ. if they're not down to tiny doses of insulin and almost ready to go OTJ, feeding a meal or snack after nadir will almost always put the brakes on any action left to the insulin. of course, there are exceptions. occasionally you'll see a dip at the end of a cycle with or without feeding at +8 or +9. lantus is known for this little dip at the end of a cycle (it's never lower than nadir). so much so that we call it one of the quirks of lantus.

with gracies's propensity to drop early, i would figure out the number of ounces/calories she should be eating every 12 hours and then divide that amount up into four equal portions to be fed at ps, +1, +2, and +3. looks like you might be doing something close to that now. this will give you a base line of how she reacts to food. once you have a good idea of what she's doing the fun begins. it's time to experiment. you'll want to have the most food on board in anticipation of the drop. in other words, you'll learn to feed before the drop... so she won't drop. lol! what you'll be doing is fine tuning her mini-meal schedule. you may find it necessary to skip the +1 feeding and slide it back to +4 or feed a double mini-meal/portion at +3. ECID. you have to find what works for gracie.

just a suggestion... i would try to get a few +1s here and there (even from a high ps number). those +1s will give you an idea if there's any food spike. this in turn will shed some light on how carb sensitive gracie really is.

just my thoughts...


EDITED TO ADD: more often than not, feeding the curve will initially yield higher numbers. don't be surprised when that happens, k? it's all part of the process.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie PMPS 324 +2 328

Jill...Thank you very much for your detailed response. I'll try to answer your questions so we can then figure out the plan for Gracie.

--- what makes you think gracie is carb sensitive?
Click to expand...
I should clarify that by carb sensitive, I mean relative to some of the other cats who can eat 18% and it just slows them down. Early on, she dropped really fast one day so I gave her 18% and it totally stopped her cold. So the next time, I tried 13%, and it also stopped her. When we fed her 9% yesterday, she quickly came up over 20. I'm not looking at the higher numbers as being a result of the carbs....I'm just looking from number to number and what we fed. However, in looking at her SS and what we've fed, I've noticed that the days she takes the big drops is days we've fed 0 or 2% and the days she's dropped more gradually, we've fed 4%. It's been tough to figure out...so many days when I've gotten over 300 on her BG, I figured I'd feed her 0-2% carbs to help her but some days she's just all of a sudden dropped and that wasn't enough to stop her. But on the few days I fed her 4% when she was over 300 and she dropped, it slowed her (reference for instance, 1st cycle 11/2).

--- how much of a rise will she get by +1 after consuming lc at amps (and how much lc was fed?)
Click to expand...
I haven't done a TON of +1s but if you look, almost every one I have done shows an increase from PMPS. Gracie gets about 150 calories a day (I calculated this from Dr. Lisa's website) to maintain her weight. I feed her only grain-free high quality foods. For all the foods we feed, I have calculated the calories in the food, divided it by the oz, and then determined how much Gracie gets in the morning, and how much in the evening. I weigh all her food. We then take each portion (am/pm) and divided it up into equal portions for PS minimeal, +1, +2, +3, and +9 mms. We were feeding her the +9 mm based on recommendations from several people in LL as they indicated it would help her pancreas to work and bring her PS number down; we haven't seen a change but were also told it takes 2-3 months to see a change.

--- how much of a rise will she get from having been fed a lc treat?
Click to expand...
We don't really give her alot of lc treats...when we do, it's either bonito flakes or freeze dried chicken. She gets bonito flakes every day about +4 as a way to get her fish oil into her as every other we've tried hasn't worked (she doesn't like the taste). I haven't seen a rise from the bonito flakes or chicken..again...she gets a tiny amount.

--- how many ounces of canned food do you feed per day?
Click to expand...
It depends on the food and the calories in it. Some of the foods are more calorie dense than the others...thus my calculating what she gets, weighing, dividing, etc.

So...first, you want us to stop the +9 feedings? That seems like a long time for her to go without any food (if we push to +4 then it would be 8 hours...before Gracie was dx, we were feeding her small meals throughout the day but not between midnight and 6-7 am). She is a very active kitty and plays alot with her baby brother who is still a kitten.
Second...when she does drop quickly, I think she's dropping between +1.5 and +2....so I'm confused..if I want to feed before the drop..then why would I push her minimeals to +2, +3, +4? If she drops fast, she's usually already there by +2.

We've been feeding the PS, +1, +2, +3, +9 for five weeks now so I would be surprised to see a rise in her numbers at this point.

Does any of this provide more info for you to further guide us on the strategy...such as going ahead with PS, +1, +2, +3 meals? Do you think I should add a +4 meal in place of the +9? Wow...this will be great news for me...I won't have to get up at 4:30 am to feed her :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thank you, Jill....I just think Gracie has a great chance to go into remission and while I know she is going to do what she's going to do, any strategy that we can employ to help her, I want to do...anything. We've pretty much put our own lives on hold to just do whatever she needs...there is always one of us here with her and you can see we do alot of testing....she's very, very good about letting us.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie PMPS 324 +2 328

marjorie, i may not get a chance to respond until tomorrow. harley's dropped pretty low. as soon as his numbers come up, i have to test alex, feed the crew, and get some sleep. early day tomorrow.
didn't want to leave you hanging...
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie PMPS 324 +2 328

Jill

That's totally fine...I saw Harley dropping and figured you were up with them. I appreciate you letting me know. We're going to feed her a little extra at +3 and then a small amt at +4 and not do the +9 tonight and see what happens. Whenever you get time tomorrow, that is absolutely fine. Thank you so much. Hope Harley comes up.
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie PMPS 324 +2 328

Just saw you on & wanted to say Gracie is doing very well- No worries, we have the best helpers here--Moonie is difficult to manage too..If I up it too much, down she goes, then got to wait for her to plunge into low numbers a few times before we do a dose crease--This has been going on for very long, so we do our best--
Gracie is doing great! Have a good Ni Ni!
 
Thanks, Roni....this string of numbers is driving me crazy :lol: I suppose one could say she is just flat here...probably not much difference between 324 and 334 but I know the juice is good and I know I got it in her so....just a bounce. Hopefully tomorrow will be better. I know Ann has been dealing with this lately, too.

We're all pooped and headed for ni ni too with these numbers...we might as well all get some sleepus.
 
Looks like Mannie from the other day too. nothing more ugh than a string of pink numbers. I hope Gracie can clear this quickly and get back to the blues and greens.

NI NI!, and see you tomorrow!
 
Re: 11/10 Gracie PMPS 324 +2 328

Marjorie and Gracie said:
Jill...Thank you very much for your detailed response. I'll try to answer your questions so we can then figure out the plan for Gracie.

--- what makes you think gracie is carb sensitive?
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I should clarify that by carb sensitive, I mean relative to some of the other cats who can eat 18% and it just slows them down. Early on, she dropped really fast one day so I gave her 18% and it totally stopped her cold. So the next time, I tried 13%, and it also stopped her. When we fed her 9% yesterday, she quickly came up over 20. I'm not looking at the higher numbers as being a result of the carbs....I'm just looking from number to number and what we fed. However, in looking at her SS and what we've fed, I've noticed that the days she takes the big drops is days we've fed 0 or 2% and the days she's dropped more gradually, we've fed 4%. It's been tough to figure out...so many days when I've gotten over 300 on her BG, I figured I'd feed her 0-2% carbs to help her but some days she's just all of a sudden dropped and that wasn't enough to stop her. But on the few days I fed her 4% when she was over 300 and she dropped, it slowed her (reference for instance, 1st cycle 11/2).
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thanks for clarifying. :-D
there are so many variables when dealing with this disease. carb content and the amounts of food fed are about the only things we have any control over. it's for this reason that i have chosen to narrow alex's food choices to one or two varieties of foods... each with a similar carb count and calories. although all bets are off when she has relapsed from other health issues. at that point i feed her anything she'll eat. feeding one to two varieties of foods consistently removes one of the variables and makes life much easier on me. it also allows me to compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges when i'm trying to figure out her response to food.

--- how much of a rise will she get by +1 after consuming lc at amps (and how much lc was fed?)
I haven't done a TON of +1s but if you look, almost every one I have done shows an increase from PMPS. Gracie gets about 150 calories a day (I calculated this from Dr. Lisa's website) to maintain her weight. I feed her only grain-free high quality foods. For all the foods we feed, I have calculated the calories in the food, divided it by the oz, and then determined how much Gracie gets in the morning, and how much in the evening. I weigh all her food. We then take each portion (am/pm) and divided it up into equal portions for PS minimeal, +1, +2, +3, and +9 mms.
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oh wow! that's quite an ordeal.
i'd still get a few +1s here and there. you may need to experiment feeding a double portion at ps or at +1.

We were feeding her the +9 mm based on recommendations from several people in LL as they indicated it would help her pancreas to work and bring her PS number down; we haven't seen a change but were also told it takes 2-3 months to see a change.
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unfortunately, like many things, i've noticed this recommendation seems to have taken on a life of it's own in LL. it's like the game of telephone. by the time what ever was said gets all the way around the room it's almost unrecognizable to the first person.

when trying to regulate a kitty, feeding after nadir can be like trying to ride a bicycle uphill with the brake on. when a kitty is close to going otj, feeding bits of food can help stimulate the pancreas. the effects are usually seen immediately, not 2-3 months later.

--- how much of a rise will she get from having been fed a lc treat?
We don't really give her alot of lc treats...when we do, it's either bonito flakes or freeze dried chicken. She gets bonito flakes every day about +4 as a way to get her fish oil into her as every other we've tried hasn't worked (she doesn't like the taste). I haven't seen a rise from the bonito flakes or chicken..again...she gets a tiny amount.
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i don't feed many treats either. if you're not seeing a rise, gracie's not what i would call overly carb sensitive.

So...first, you want us to stop the +9 feedings? That seems like a long time for her to go without any food (if we push to +4 then it would be 8 hours...before Gracie was dx, we were feeding her small meals throughout the day but not between midnight and 6-7 am). She is a very active kitty and plays alot with her baby brother who is still a kitten.
Second...when she does drop quickly, I think she's dropping between +1.5 and +2....so I'm confused..if I want to feed before the drop..then why would I push her minimeals to +2, +3, +4? If she drops fast, she's usually already there by +2.

We've been feeding the PS, +1, +2, +3, +9 for five weeks now so I would be surprised to see a rise in her numbers at this point.
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yes, i would stop the +9 feedings for now. gracie may need to be fed in one or two portions fed at ps or ps and +1 in order to slow down the early drop. the only way to know is to try it. it took me quite some time to figure out the relationship between food and insulin with alex. once i did things have been a breeze. for the most part she's flat and green... one cycle after another, but it took a lot of experimentation. what works for alex may not work for any other kitty on the planet.

since gracie is active, you may need to feed her *snacks* rather than mini-meals throughout the day. that's what i have to do with one of my civvies. if i don't feed him a snack before bed he'll start knocking things off the dresser and nightstands at 4am!

Does any of this provide more info for you to further guide us on the strategy...such as going ahead with PS, +1, +2, +3 meals? Do you think I should add a +4 meal in place of the +9? Wow...this will be great news for me...I won't have to get up at 4:30 am to feed her :lol: :lol: :lol:
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since you've already gone through feeding equal portions at ps, +1, +2, and +3 and gracie continues to drop by +2... i would try dividing up her meal into 2 portions fed at ps and +1. it may work. it may not, but it's worth trying.

Thank you, Jill....I just think Gracie has a great chance to go into remission and while I know she is going to do what she's going to do, any strategy that we can employ to help her, I want to do...anything. We've pretty much put our own lives on hold to just do whatever she needs...there is always one of us here with her and you can see we do alot of testing....she's very, very good about letting us.
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you're welcome. probably the most important thing i'd like to convey is to not be afraid of experimenting. give the experiments time to work. the numbers may suffer from it every once in awhile, but eventually you come away with enough information and knowledge about your cat to figure out what works best for gracie. that's when you'll have it made in the shade! :mrgreen:
 
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