10/10 Mar Lei AMPS 511

I know it's horrid to see high numbers and there is a strong temptation to give more insulin. He is bouncing and Lantus is a depot insulin. If you give him more, he might just drop even lower at some point and bounce harder from there.

There's nothing to be done but suffer the bounces. Believe me, we all hate them, but they are like a rite of passage. It will reduce over time.
 
It is really hard!!!!



I can see he is benefitting from this protocols. He likes consistency and there is a calmness about him and he is definitely better in several ways than when I joined you. And I thank you so much for that, sincerely.

But I am struggling with certain aspects.

For instance when he was on the other protocol, sometimes he was getting even lower numbers and not bouncing. He was bouncing more than not, but when he was bouncing it was generally in the high teens, low twenties. So these high twenties really concern me and makes me feel perhaps their isnt enough insulin on board. Or why else would he be bouncing so high when he rarely did before, even with many more 2's and 3's and 4's in the picture?

Hes not coming to sleep on my bed and he hasn't since be began this protocol and for whatever reason, over these last 9 months, this has come to be a marker of how well he feels. You know when you are a bit fragile and you dont want anyone to touch you.

I think Mar Lei is one of those cats that can tolerate low numbers better than most in the sense that he's not prone to hypos He has had times over the last 9 months where he is reaching the low 2's and 3's and 4's quite regularly and even though he might bounce, he gets and super energised and happy and purrs alot and seeks alot of affection. And that was when I wasn't giving him all these mini meals. At the moment, hes quiet and wants to be nearish me but doesnt much come for affection and wont come upstairs at night, let alone sleep on my bed, which he used to do all the time.

I know you know way more about this protocol than me, I know relatively nothing. I am so grateful for your guidance and part of me thinks I should just pipe down and let you get on with it. Its just these high 20s freak me out. and just incase it was helpful I wanted to share my observations of Mar Lei.
 
I am here because it wasn't working and we need help. Sorry if I keep putting a spanner in the works. I will follow your lead.
 
Jdubs said:
I am here because it wasn't working and we need help. Sorry if I keep putting a spanner in the works. I will follow your lead.
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No need to apologize. We have all been where you are and know exactly what you are going through. :bighug:

As far his numbers go, the AlphaTrak (and any pet meter) reads much higher than human meters. If you were using Freestyle Lite strips with the AlphaTrak, that might be one reason why you were seeing lower numbers and are seeing much higher numbers now. Take a look at this spreadsheet where there was a recent change from pet to human meter and see the difference. The numbers are much lower:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...kppYQUQPokr5L3aAcTijFFODM/edit#gid=1182885903

As far as hypos are concerned, it's possible that Mar Lei has a better tolerance for lower numbers. But hypos do kill and that is not a chance we can recommend anyone take. If not fatal, hypos can cause seizures, lead to blindness etc.

Lastly, TR is an established protocol that was subject to a formal research study and published in veterinary journals. It has worked for many cats here and helped them get tightly regulated and some have also gone into remission. Give it time to work and paws crossed, you will see the results in Mar Lei in time.
 
Bandit's Mom said:
As far his numbers go, the AlphaTrak (and any pet meter) reads much higher than human meters. If you were using Freestyle Lite strips with the AlphaTrak, that might be one reason why you were seeing lower numbers and are seeing much higher numbers now. Take a look at this spreadsheet where there was a recent change from pet to human meter and see the difference. The numbers are much lower:
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Ah ok this makes sense. So on an alphatrax with free style lite, the lower numbers could be the same in reality as the higher numbers I am seeing now with the alphatrax strips in the alphatrax metre?

To be honest with the state of the world right now, and the state of 'science', I dont have much faith........so much of it is manipulated, even long standing editors of prestigious medical journals are now saying you can trust less than half of (even peer reviewed) studies. And ive heard other people with respectful credentials saying the state of veterinary medicine is no different. (I'll dig out their actual quotes, if you are interested).....

Having said that, I know that there will be many good people working within these fields, doing incredible work and that will be finding its way through and especially I do have alot of faith in your experience and all the kind clever people here, - the fact that you have seen this process over and over and used these protocols to great effect. So this I do have so much respect for and gratitude for you.

Is Mar Lei's process so far normal, or are you sensing he is a bit tricky? On the last protocol, I saw newer cats come in and get regulated quite fast, but just couldnt get there with Mar Lei. I do think he suits habits and schedules so I am really hoping here we will make progress.
 
Jdubs said:
Ah ok this makes sense. So on an alphatrax with free style lite, the lower numbers could be the same in reality as the higher numbers I am seeing now with the alphatrax strips in the alphatrax metre?
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Yes. That's what I was thinking.


Jdubs said:
And ive heard other people with respectful credentials saying the state of veterinary medicine is no different. (I'll dig out their actual quotes, if you are interested).....

Having said that, I know that there will be many good people working within these fields, doing incredible work and that will be finding its way through and especially I do have alot of faith in your experience and all the kind clever people here, - the fact that you have seen this process over and over and used these protocols to great effect. So this I do have so much respect for and gratitude for you.
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Many of us have met and heard of several vets who next to nothing about feline diabetes. They are all about prescribing the wrong insulin, high carb prescription food, poor dosing in terms of increases by whole units, not recommending home testing etc etc. But TR has worked for several cats here.

Jdubs said:
Is Mar Lei's process so far normal, or are you sensing he is a bit tricky? On the last protocol, I saw newer cats come in and get regulated quite fast, but just couldnt get there with Mar Lei. I do think he suits habits and schedules so I am really hoping here we will make progress.
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It's too early to say. Even though he was diagnosed 8 months ago, you have been following TR for less than 2 weeks. i am hoping for the best.

Btw, how many strips of the AT do you have left?
 
But I was doing TR of a different kind. Sliding scale, but they seem to get cats regulated really fast too. Just couldnt get Mar Lei regulated. It was going ok for Mar Lei, but something went wrong, I am not sure what and that coincided with the main lady having lots going on in her life so just couldnt help. I'd anyway been feeling for a while that Mar Lei might suit consistent dosing better as he likes habit.....

When are you thinking we can raise the dose?

Bandit's Mom said:
Btw, how many strips of the AT do you have left?
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Well I have the rest of the packet I'm on plus two more boxes. Each box has 50 strips.

Then I will move on to the freestyle lite human metre and strips.

I looked up the really cheap one you recommended but I am worried about the fact I'll need alot more blood than I do with the alphatrax or freestyle lite.

I dont suppose you have any other recommendations for acceptable cheap metre that doesnt need as much blood as the SD code one?
 
Jdubs said:
When are you thinking we can raise the dose?
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If his nadirs start moving up. Let's see where he lands after he clears the bounce.

Jdubs said:
I looked up the really cheap one you recommended but I am worried about the fact I'll need alot more blood than I do with the alphatrax or freestyle lite.

I dont suppose you have any other recommendations for acceptable cheap metre that doesnt need as much blood as the SD code one?
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I believe the Freestyle Lite uses less blood than other human meters. Is getting blood an issue with Mar Lei?
 
Bandit's Mom said:
If his nadirs start moving up. Let's see where he lands after he clears the bounce.
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How do we know the high numbers aren't simply because there isnt enough insulin on board?
Bandit's Mom said:
I believe the Freestyle Lite uses less blood than other human meters. Is getting blood an issue with Mar Lei?
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The freestyle lite is fine and I will use up the test strips I have, but I would ideally like to get a metre with cheaper strips than the freestyle lite. The freestyle lite are £21 a box (50 strips) and the SD codex or whatever its called are £7 a box - 50 strips. That would really be a good drop in price. But the SD strips call for more blood.

I dont feel he has a problem with his blood as such. Sometimes I guess if I hit a vein it gushes and sometimes I really have to work the ears to get it, but as I am testing him alot I'd rather not always hot a vein, id like to be able to use lots of places so that its kinder on his ear. Some of those places dont give much blood.
 
Jdubs said:
I dont feel he has a problem with his blood as such. Sometimes I guess if I hit a vein it gushes and sometimes I really have to work the ears to get it, but as I am testing him alot I'd rather not always hot a vein, id like to be able to use lots of places so that its kinder on his ear. Some of those places dont give much blood.
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Have you tried warming or massaging his ear before you poke? Sometimes you have to "milk" the ear after you poke to increase the size of the drop.
 
I hope you dont mind me asking but I am curious, I like to understand things.
How do we know the high numbers are bounce and aren't simply because there isnt enough insulin on board?
 
Jdubs said:
I hope you dont mind me asking but I am curious, I like to understand things.
How do we know the high numbers are bounce and aren't simply because there isnt enough insulin on board?
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Because the cycles of higher numbers have come after a cycle of much lower numbers. You have seen, by now, that a preshot is not a determinant of how the cycle will play out or how low the BG will go.
 
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