1/19 Luci AMPS 294

Oh Luci, you little bouncer you. It was a beautiful run in the green yesterday.

Here is something I came across in a past post the other day that talked about bouncy kitties. It is a technique called "manipulating the curve" You might have read this all ready. It made me think of you and @JoyBee&Ravan .


hi bern. i've been using a method i dubbed "using food to manipulate the curve" to help control alex's curves for years. i've taught the method to sienne, marje, and scores of others. i don't necessarily consider it an advanced technique. however, a caregiver better pay close attention when using food to manipulate a curve or it can become risky business.

here are the basics:

what is meant by using food to manipulate the curve?
simply put, it's a method of feeding used to prevent kitty from dropping too fast and/or too low.
the amount of food usually fed to the cat is broken down into several mini-meals fed throughout the course of the day with the intention of flattening out the curve. lc is normally fed to all numbers except possibly in the case of a significant or fast drop or fed to a drop below 50.

the only time you might want to feed a little higher carb food at shot time is to bump the numbers up so the insulin is starting from a higher number when onset occurs if you're running out the door and will be unable to monitor.

if you're around to monitor, there's no reason to bump the numbers up at shot time. the beauty of lantus and levemir is being able to shoot low to stay low. shooting low is how you obtain the low flat curve with lantus and levemir.

whether you'd want to feed lc, mc, or hc to slow a drop depends on two things:
1. the carb sensitivity or lack of of your particular cat.
2. the point you're at in the cycle. a drop early in the cycle *may* require big guns. a drop at nadir (unless nadir is less than 40) or late in the cycle usually only requires lc to bump the numbers up. however, if you have a carb sensitive kitty, you may not have to use anything except lc to bump up the numbers. "KNOW THY CAT".

why would you want to manipulate the curve with food?
--- bouncers: kitties who drop low and then bounce to the moon benefit from food manipulation. using food to manipulate the curve will tend to flatten out the curve. flattening out the curve helps to prevent huge bounces.
--- carb sensitive kitties: kitties who experience large food spikes when consuming even lc benefit from manipulating the curve with food. strategically spacing out meal times will help flatten out the curve.

why do i want to use food to flatten out the curve ?
--- flattening out the curve allows you to get as much insulin into the cat as safely possible without having kitty bottom out on you.
--- flattening out the curve *usually* allows you to hang onto a dose longer
--- flattening out the curve allows you to shoot higher doses of insulin than you would have been able to otherwise.

why would i want to get as much insulin as possible into the cat?
lantus and levemir are known to have a harder time bringing down higher numbers. more insulin helps bring down the higher numbers in a bouncer's cycle. more insulin will help counteract the spikes in a food spiker. using food to manipulate the curve will flatten out the curve and help keep your kitty safe.


when using food to manipulate the curve, i generally recommend starting with dividing up the normal amount of food your kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals to be fed at preshot, +1, +2, and +3 of each cycle. however, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. a plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.
Edited to add on 11/13/2015:
I was referring to manipulating the curve when using Lantus in the paragraph above.
Levemir typically has a later onset (usually around +4) and a later nadir. To accommodate the difference, when using Levemir one might start with dividing up the normal amount of food kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals beginning at shot time, +3, +6, and +7 of each cycle. However, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. A plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. Frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.

a quote that goes along with this subject from Libby/Lucy found in one of Mocha's Lantus condos:

"carb manipulation is more about learning what your cat's response is to varying amounts of carbs at different times during the cycle, and using that information to your advantage. Learn how many points bump she gets from LC, MC, and HC, both early in the cycle and later in the cycle. Use that information to guide her cycles the way you want them to go. Mocha's AM and PM cycles are very different, so the best feeding times for her might not be the same in each cycle. Take the amount you would feed her over the 12 hour period, divide it into 3-4 meals, and experiment with when to feed them. Whatever changes you make, write them in your spreadsheet and hold it for at least 3-4 days to see if it is changing anything. Mocha drops later at night than she does during the day, so your food schedule might need to be different at night.

Many cats benefit from front-loading the cycle with food. That means feeding at PS, +1, +2, +3 (when the insulin is kicking in) and then NOT feeding after +6 (because for a carb sensitive cat, you would be adding food at the same time the insulin is wearing off, driving the numbers higher). The +9 snack is helpful for some cats when they are trying to go OTJ, because it can stimulate their pancreas. That is more useful if the cat is generally flat, but spikes up just before PS. I wouldn't worry about that yet, until you get to a lower dose."

experimenting is how YOU learn how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself. no one feeding plan will affect two different cats in the exact same ways. experimenting, testing, recording your observations... these are the things which will help YOU with YOUR kitty because like you'll often hear around here...ECID. :mrgreen:



just a few thoughts...
Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
Reason for edit: Added Lev info
Jill & Alex (GA), Aug 11, 2013
#15
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Oh Luci, you little bouncer you. It was a beautiful run in the green yesterday.

Here is something I came across in a past post the other day that talked about bouncy kitties. It is a technique called "manipulating the curve" You might have read this all ready. It made me think of you and @JoyBee&Ravan .


hi bern. i've been using a method i dubbed "using food to manipulate the curve" to help control alex's curves for years. i've taught the method to sienne, marje, and scores of others. i don't necessarily consider it an advanced technique. however, a caregiver better pay close attention when using food to manipulate a curve or it can become risky business.

here are the basics:

what is meant by using food to manipulate the curve?
simply put, it's a method of feeding used to prevent kitty from dropping too fast and/or too low.
the amount of food usually fed to the cat is broken down into several mini-meals fed throughout the course of the day with the intention of flattening out the curve. lc is normally fed to all numbers except possibly in the case of a significant or fast drop or fed to a drop below 50.

the only time you might want to feed a little higher carb food at shot time is to bump the numbers up so the insulin is starting from a higher number when onset occurs if you're running out the door and will be unable to monitor.

if you're around to monitor, there's no reason to bump the numbers up at shot time. the beauty of lantus and levemir is being able to shoot low to stay low. shooting low is how you obtain the low flat curve with lantus and levemir.

whether you'd want to feed lc, mc, or hc to slow a drop depends on two things:
1. the carb sensitivity or lack of of your particular cat.
2. the point you're at in the cycle. a drop early in the cycle *may* require big guns. a drop at nadir (unless nadir is less than 40) or late in the cycle usually only requires lc to bump the numbers up. however, if you have a carb sensitive kitty, you may not have to use anything except lc to bump up the numbers. "KNOW THY CAT".

why would you want to manipulate the curve with food?
--- bouncers: kitties who drop low and then bounce to the moon benefit from food manipulation. using food to manipulate the curve will tend to flatten out the curve. flattening out the curve helps to prevent huge bounces.
--- carb sensitive kitties: kitties who experience large food spikes when consuming even lc benefit from manipulating the curve with food. strategically spacing out meal times will help flatten out the curve.

why do i want to use food to flatten out the curve ?
--- flattening out the curve allows you to get as much insulin into the cat as safely possible without having kitty bottom out on you.
--- flattening out the curve *usually* allows you to hang onto a dose longer
--- flattening out the curve allows you to shoot higher doses of insulin than you would have been able to otherwise.

why would i want to get as much insulin as possible into the cat?
lantus and levemir are known to have a harder time bringing down higher numbers. more insulin helps bring down the higher numbers in a bouncer's cycle. more insulin will help counteract the spikes in a food spiker. using food to manipulate the curve will flatten out the curve and help keep your kitty safe.


when using food to manipulate the curve, i generally recommend starting with dividing up the normal amount of food your kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals to be fed at preshot, +1, +2, and +3 of each cycle. however, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. a plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.
Edited to add on 11/13/2015:
I was referring to manipulating the curve when using Lantus in the paragraph above.
Levemir typically has a later onset (usually around +4) and a later nadir. To accommodate the difference, when using Levemir one might start with dividing up the normal amount of food kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals beginning at shot time, +3, +6, and +7 of each cycle. However, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. A plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. Frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.

a quote that goes along with this subject from Libby/Lucy found in one of Mocha's Lantus condos:

"carb manipulation is more about learning what your cat's response is to varying amounts of carbs at different times during the cycle, and using that information to your advantage. Learn how many points bump she gets from LC, MC, and HC, both early in the cycle and later in the cycle. Use that information to guide her cycles the way you want them to go. Mocha's AM and PM cycles are very different, so the best feeding times for her might not be the same in each cycle. Take the amount you would feed her over the 12 hour period, divide it into 3-4 meals, and experiment with when to feed them. Whatever changes you make, write them in your spreadsheet and hold it for at least 3-4 days to see if it is changing anything. Mocha drops later at night than she does during the day, so your food schedule might need to be different at night.

Many cats benefit from front-loading the cycle with food. That means feeding at PS, +1, +2, +3 (when the insulin is kicking in) and then NOT feeding after +6 (because for a carb sensitive cat, you would be adding food at the same time the insulin is wearing off, driving the numbers higher). The +9 snack is helpful for some cats when they are trying to go OTJ, because it can stimulate their pancreas. That is more useful if the cat is generally flat, but spikes up just before PS. I wouldn't worry about that yet, until you get to a lower dose."

experimenting is how YOU learn how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself. no one feeding plan will affect two different cats in the exact same ways. experimenting, testing, recording your observations... these are the things which will help YOU with YOUR kitty because like you'll often hear around here...ECID. :mrgreen:



just a few thoughts...
Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
Reason for edit: Added Lev info
Jill & Alex (GA), Aug 11, 2013
#15
Click to expand...
Thanks Bobbie :) This info is a good refresher :) I agree - and try to always feed the curve - especially that downward curve...but I'm still at a loss as to how to feed that upward curve. Luci isn't feed after about 7+ and at night no food after that last test - typically around 5-7+ unless she's in really low numbers...
She is a little mystery ... I'm hoping those yellows and pinks are just her way of 'bumping' along the road to 'R'...don't want to think too loudly about that - she's probably reading this over my shoulder from her perch in the lanai...:bighug:
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Many cats benefit from front-loading the cycle with food. That means feeding at PS, +1, +2, +3 (when the insulin is kicking in) and then NOT feeding after +6 (because for a carb sensitive cat, you would be adding food at the same time the insulin is wearing off, driving the numbers higher).
Click to expand...
Maybe just start with the above times. Divide her calories a day into 8 parts and dole out at the above times and see if it keeps her from diving. It's worth a try to see if it can flatten out the cycle and prevent bouncing.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Many cats benefit from front-loading the cycle with food. That means feeding at PS, +1, +2, +3 (when the insulin is kicking in) and then NOT feeding after +6
Click to expand...
I had just read this a few days ago and switched Bailey back to +2, +3, +4, +5. I just looked at her SS and realized her higher nighttime surf started when I switched her food schedule. I had also read that since there are differences in their day/night cycles, you can try doing different feeding schedules for AM/PM cycles. Maybe consider changing the PM cycle, but leaving AM cycle for now since that seems to work well for her? I might do that for Bailey.

Edit:
I have a question about this though.
If you give one can of food per cycle, is this saying give equal parts at each time feeding time rather than front loading at shot time?
 
Last edited:
Bobbie And Bubba said:
see if it can flatten out the cycle and prevent bouncing.
Click to expand...

I'm going to copy that info & study it . I've been feeding small meals especially at night when Ravan usually goes the lowest but I must be doing something wrong. He just kept bouncing. I was going to increase this morning but Ravan had other plans!
He dropped to 55+8 I'm curious to see where he's going today :D
Thanks Bobbie for the info! :)
 
Lovely Luci does those cute little Yellow bounces.
mini-graphics-cats-282405.gif
Her SS still looks GREAT to me!
images
 
Rosie & Bailey said:
I had just read this a few days ago and switched Bailey back to +2, +3, +4, +5. I just looked at her SS and realized her higher nighttime surf started when I switched her food schedule. I had also read that since there are differences in their day/night cycles, you can try doing different feeding schedules for AM/PM cycles. Maybe consider changing the PM cycle, but leaving AM cycle for now since that seems to work well for her? I might do that for Bailey.

Edit:
I have a question about this though.
If you give one can of food per cycle, is this saying give equal parts at each time feeding time rather than front loading at shot time?
Click to expand...
I think you will need to play around with it and see what works best for Baily. Jill's outline is a good starting place and with good notes and observations you might need to tweak it for your kitty.
 
Hopefully she'll make it back to the lagoon tonight. She's been looking so good so far in 2019! Oddly enough, I was just thinking of Luci today. The switch to Levemir, while it's unfortunate that it's coincided with an IAA flare, has kept Lou almost stupidly steady. And this is regardless of what dose he's on, even in yellows and pinks! Randomly I starting wondering how Luci would do on Levemir. Would it steady her out instead of her swan diving? I know you were leary of switching last year, but definitely keep it in mind. I'm just curious and it was a passing thought. :bighug:
 
Amanda and a Loudogg said:
Hopefully she'll make it back to the lagoon tonight. She's been looking so good so far in 2019! Oddly enough, I was just thinking of Luci today. The switch to Levemir, while it's unfortunate that it's coincided with an IAA flare, has kept Lou almost stupidly steady. And this is regardless of what dose he's on, even in yellows and pinks! Randomly I starting wondering how Luci would do on Levemir. Would it steady her out instead of her swan diving? I know you were leary of switching last year, but definitely keep it in mind. I'm just curious and it was a passing thought. :bighug:
Click to expand...
Yep, definitely keeping it in mind...will stay the course for now on Lantus. She's back in the lagoon tonight - teasing the sharks!
 
Bellasmom said:
Wow +3:eek::eek::eek:
Tell DH long night, he’s such a trooper for doing that at night
Click to expand...
Well he came and got me up...so much for trying to do some controlled feeding with her food today...but tonight, now it's a different story completely. She ate her dinner at PMPS - Low Carb FF - and now is eating her MC like it's going out of style. He's checking again - every 30 minutes now - he wants to give her honey...but she's not dropped below 40 yet...we'll see how long he can stand to stay up with HRH tonight... Why couldn't she have done any of this during the daytime????:arghh::arghh::arghh: Why wait until so late to get the party (surfing party that is) started? Sheesh...:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
Sue and Luci said:
Why couldn't she have done any of this during the daytime????:arghh::arghh::arghh: Why wait until so late to get the party (surfing party that is) started? Sheesh...:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
Click to expand...
She figures you've been having all the fun with the daytime surf. She wanted to give DH some surf time.

Hope she comes back up and does a nice long safe surf for you :D
 
Sue and Luci said:
Well he came and got me up...so much for trying to do some controlled feeding with her food today...but tonight, now it's a different story completely. She ate her dinner at PMPS - Low Carb FF - and now is eating her MC like it's going out of style. He's checking again - every 30 minutes now - he wants to give her honey...but she's not dropped below 40 yet...we'll see how long he can stand to stay up with HRH tonight... Why couldn't she have done any of this during the daytime????:arghh::arghh::arghh: Why wait until so late to get the party (surfing party that is) started? Sheesh...:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
Click to expand...
She’s just a exciting girl,like to keep u guys on alert at all times, Bella is straight yellow tonight so I’m expecting the greens again tomorrow but then he needs to change it back to greens at night cause of work
Luci, you stay away from big teeth:nailbiting:and let you mom and dad get some rest
 
Mandy & Rex said:
@Yvonne & Big John & Andy has recent success with flattening Andy's cycles. Andy bounced a lot, but now he's doing better after Yvonne changed how and when she fed Andy.
Click to expand...

Yes, this has made a huge difference for us. Now I need to experiment on learning when is the right time to feed. I was doing +4 am and pm. He bounced this am so I think I will stick with +4 today until I see where he goes. It is hard for us with all our other cats - they think they all need to eat when Andy is eating. Please keep those suggestions coming - it is helpful to be able to relate to Andy's SS! Thx!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top