1/16 Mikey AMPS 337 NO DOSE INCREASE YET? +6/278 PMPS 336

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miso00

Member Since 2011
yesterdays condo http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=61205

Can someone please see Venita's comment in yesterday's post and comment. Also, I think I am clear now from Venita's post, but one reason I did not increase the dose last night is it was never confirmed that I was increasing from 2.5u to 2.75u. That was my "assumption" but I would never had done it without confirmation.
 
Re: 1/16 Mikey AMPS 337 NO DOSE INCREASE YET?

The issue of "chronic rebound" is one that has come up periodically. I've done a significant amount of research (two lit reviews using medical and veterinary databases) into the topic. The most that can convincingly be said is that the concept is at best, controversial. The original research was done in 1938. It has never been replicated in either humans or felines. I posted this in Marjorie/Gracie's condo a while ago:
Sienne and Gabby said:
The topic of Somogyi came up some time before you joined the Board. Both Jill and I did a lot of lit searching. I have access to both a medical and veterinary library system. For a theory that has so many people convinced that it is a factor in human as well as in feline diabetes, there is an amazingly small amount of research on the topic. The earliest paper by Michael Somogyi, is from the 1930s and was not published in a widely recognized medical journal (i.e., it was in the Weekly Bulletin of the St. Louis Medical Society). Note that this was a report based on 5 human subjects and urine glucose, not blood glucose was measured. More recent reports note that Somogyi's observations have not been reliably reproduced under controlled conditions.

Gale said:
Although some patients had a very rapid fluctuation from hypoglycaemia to hyperglycaemia, we found no evidence that changes in counterregulatory hormone levels were responsible.The preceding interval of hypoglycemia was often prolonged, which implied defective homeostasis, and the difference between the patients with apparent rebound and those without could not be explained in terms of circulating levels of cortisol, growth hormone, or glucagon. Other workers have noted very variable changes in growth-hormone and cortisol levels after acute hypoglycsemia in unstable diabetics. We did not measure catecholamines and cannot rule out the possibility that they were partly responsible for the difference between our groups. However, the evidence presented here suggests that free insulin is the major factor involved.
The bold is mine. It points out that there is no evidence for what the vet is suggesting about "stress" hormones (i.e., cortisol).

In addition to the dearth of empirical research, there is even less that pertains to cats and none that addresses Somogyi phenomenon in the use of Lantus. Given that the presence of Somogyi is believed to be associated with doses that are raised in too large of an increment, it is surprising that this IM vet would not be an enthusiastic supporter of the Queensland/Rand tight regulation protocol. (FYI - there is another TR protocol and the vet may have assumed this was the one you were referring to.)

This is a link to info on Chronic Somogyi Rebound on Wiki. I would draw your attention to the section on Controversy:
Although this theory is well known among clinicians and individuals with diabetes, there is little scientific evidence to support it. Clinical studies indicate that a high fasting glucose in the morning is more likely because the insulin given on the previous evening fails to last long enough.[5] Recent studies using continuous glucose monitoring show that a high glucose in the morning is not preceded by a low glucose during the night.[6] Furthermore, many individuals with hypoglycemic episodes during the night fail to wake due to a failure of release of epinephrine during nocturnal hypoglycemia.[7] Thus, Somogyi's theory is not assured and may be refuted.
This information pertains to humans, not cats. However, the phenomenon was based on humans and extrapolated to felines so I'm going to presume the issues with the paucity as well as quality of the research are the same. Some of what I quoted was specific to the question Marje was raising but it is pertinent to the issue that Venita raised.

While there is very little information about Somogyi (i.e., "chronic" rebound), what we do know is that cats will experience a bounce. This is not a chronic situation, though. To me, that is the differentiation -- bouncing vs. "chronic rebound". We also don't know if Mikey's eye issues were brewing and effecting his BG levels. I agree with Venita that Mikey was seeing a lot more blue in early December. I would be very hesitant to say he was "flirting with OTJ," though. I would be concerned that backing off the dose will put Mikey in the reds.

I didn't realize that you were unclear about how much to increase. Unless otherwise noted, follow the protocol and increase by 0.25u.
 
Re: 1/16 Mikey AMPS 337 NO DOSE INCREASE YET?

Hi guys .. looks like sienne has your questions covered! I hope that the dose increase shows you some nicer numbers .. have a great day!
 
Re: 1/16 Mikey AMPS 337 NO DOSE INCREASE YET?

Mikey-Man....

use the extra juice well, buddy!

We really would like to see you lower!
 
Re: 1/16 Mikey AMPS 337 NO DOSE INCREASE YET?

FWIW, Sienne gave you great info. I also do not think this is chronic rebound. You test enough to catch any lows that would cause a persistent and chronic rebound AND you have taken him up in very small increments.

There are a lot of kitties (Champ for one) that have experienced a similar dance as Mikey. Persistence, patience, taking the dose up when needed in small amounts....he'll get to his breakthrough.
 
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