1/16 Gracie PMPS 136 +1 99 +2 91 +3 94 +4 82 +5 99

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Marje and Gracie

Marje and Gracie

Member Since 2010
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Yesterday

Recap: 7th cycle 1u
AMPS: 61
+.5 78
+1: 138
+1.5: 139
+2: 133
+2.5: 137
+3: 156
+4: 183
+6: 211
+10: 340
PMPS: 369 8th cycle 1u
+1.5: 363
+3: 363
AMPS: 315 9th cycle 1u
+2: 306

Happy Sunday to all our LL friends. We are sending MAJOR healing vines and snowflakes to Girlcat and also to Rocket and Claudia, Blackie, and Tori.

WCR: STINKUS PINKUS go away!!! 4Ps in place. Gracie does not play nearly as much with her numbers this high and she has alot of sugar in her urine. She is eating well and is her sweet little Gracie self but she is much quieter.

QUESTIONS PLEASE :-D
1. We thought she was going to do ok on this dose but we're seeing too much pink and not clearing bounces as fast. I would like to take her back up to f1u tonight unless the wise and astute eyes look at her SS and see something I don't as to why we should stay on this dose any longer. Yes..she is getting some healing cycles but not like she was but I need big picture eyes please and we so appreciate it!

2. We know what causes the bounces, but has anyone ever said what causes some cats (Gracie, Gabby, Tess, Mannie, just to name a few) to dive? Why does that happen?

2. The other day, Sienne and someone else said if you don't take a dose reduction when you are supposed to, you lose it. What exactly does that mean??

3. Because Gracie drops fast and then sinks low and wants to stay there unless we use MC/HC/karo to bring her up, Mike and I started (a couple weeks ago) trying to slow the dives by giving her a drop of karo as soon as we saw her drop more than 50/hour. This really seemed to work well and then she would slowly slide down and unless her dose was getting to be too much, she didn't go under 50. You can see where we did this 1st cycle 1/13 and 2nd cycle 1/14. Lovely. Is there any downside to doing this...i.e. giving her karo early to slow the dive in the hopes that slowing the dive will eliminate the bounce IF she doesn't go too low?

Thank you all so much for your help. Busy day here today...Sunday is chore day around the property and Mike is gone. I have to do my resume of all things because I'm getting a promotion but it's a new job and even though it is tailor-made for me, I still have to "apply" for it which I don't mind except the time it takes to do my resume (which I haven't done in 17 years :lol: :lol: :lol: ). Have a wonderful day.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 DOSE & GEN ???

Happy Sunday, Marjorie.. congrats on the promotion.. I agree about the resume that is no fun having to update! Chore Day, eh? Here too :YMSIGH:
I hope that Gracie can give some better #s soon.. I can imagine that pinks are frusturating & good luck with any dosecrease cat_pet_icon wishing you both a wonderful day!
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 DOSE & GEN ???

Hi Marjorie,
Those are good questions; hope someone comes along and helps with answers. I don't understand the "take the dose or lose it" either, so I'll be interested. Wow, congratulations on the promotion, too, but I hear ya on doing the paperwork involved in updating a resume. I think we're all doing chores today.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 DOSE & GEN ???

CONGRATULATIONS, MARJORIE...WELL-DESERVED!!!

OBVIOUSLY NO HELP FROM ME ON THE QUESTIONS...
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

Hey Nicole, Ann, and Cheryl: thanks for stopping by....I'll be very interested, too!!

Celi: thanks!! just when I was thinking about retiring :lol:

On Gracie's +4:

Think I might start a new pen...this one is more than 28 days old.....has a few bubbles but no floaties.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

From my understanding ... what Sienne meant about losing the dose reduction if you don't take it....

It is very much like missing a night's sleep because you were working. Then you really should take a nap to function well the next day.
But you put it off and you put it off.... Well, now you cannot take a nap a week later because your body has already moved on and adjusted.
Then next time you stay up too late, you better take a nap when you actually need it.

How's that? It may not be technical, but similar principle is involved.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

CD explained what I meant. All things being equal, if you delay taking a reduction for too long, you've missed the opportunity.

I think Gracie is bouncing. I'd wait for the bounce to clear before you increase the dose.

I suspect why our kitties dive is because their pancreas sputters. There are those times when they produce endogenous insulin and numbers drop.

I tend to think that your explanation for when to intervene with HC makes sense in theory. The variable that you are not considering is that Gracie is a cat. She will not conform to theory all the time.

At least this is my spin on things. Others may have differing points of view.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

Thanks, CD and Sienne. I appreciate the answers!!

Interesting about the dives...that the pancreas is sputtering..wish it would sputter it's way into working all the time :lol: :lol:

Ok...so I'll change pens tonight and hold the dosecrease off; it just seemed like she did less bouncing on a higher dose but that can be pure coincidence!
I don't know why her bounces lately leave her in pink instead of coming down to yellow.

Yes..in theory and it has worked but, as all things with FD, it could change.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

HI Marjorie! :-D and so true on a sputtering pancreas. So Gracie is flatlining pinks today - Mannie is flatlining the reds. aiyee! It was nice to read the explanation of missed opportunity.

well have fun with chore day. me too some, plus suffering through the seattle/chicago game. we are so gonna loose....
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

Majorie....you always ask such great questions. When I visit your condo I feel like I'm back in school......Lots of learning. Glad I'm not getting graded anymore though. :mrgreen:


Great explaining on missing a reduction.....and a sputterng pancreas. Ummmmmm.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

Hi Gracie,

On your number three question:

I see no downside to attempting slow a drop. Sometimes our kitties bounce from the speed of the drop and not necessarily the numbers they end up at. ;-) Slowing the drop and letting them settle down into those low numbers might be a good strategy for some.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

Thanks for all the great info. Three quick follow ups:

Yesterday morning, I shot a 61 which was probably a dropping number since she had been at 99 at +10. I stated the reasons for doing that on my condo yesterday so won't reiterate. But because Gracie doesn't always get a food spike, I did give her 18% food to bring her post PS numbers up so she wouldn't immediately drop to a 40. I think I overcarbed her. What might have been a better option for me knowing that stalling is not the best option and also knowing that if I had shot a BCS, it probably wouldn't have really been effective that cycle...correct?

Sienne: how do you time breaking the bounce with a dosecrease (increase)? Do you just let the bounce break, see what happens the next cycle and then increase? Unfortunately, on this dose, Gracie has a decent (not great) string of numbers, bounces, decent string, bounce...so I don't know when to fit in an increase. While her numbers when blue/green are good, at a higher dose, we were not getting bounces. Thoughts?

Beth: so using a little HC (in this case karo) to slow the drop is ok and doesn't do a carb overload like using HC to bring them up? This is what Mike and I were trying to achieve...use it early and hopefully avoid using it later...unfortunately...Gracie doesn't always go along with our plans. :lol: So do you think early use of karo to slow drops does not increase the bounce factor (which is also something Mike and I have been thinking...HC use at low numbers = harder bounce due to extra sugar in system??).

Michelle: when will they ever just let the pancreas do the work and let the liver relax? :lol: Seattle/Chicago....you might get surprised!!!

Tena: so great to see you in our condo!! It's been about two weeks since I stirred the LL pot with questions so thought it was about time. :lol: This is what happens when Mike goes to work and I have so much time to think!
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

Marjorie and Gracie said:
Thanks for all the great info. Three quick follow ups:

Yesterday morning, I shot a 61 which was probably a dropping number since she had been at 99 at +10. I stated the reasons for doing that on my condo yesterday so won't reiterate. But because Gracie doesn't always get a food spike, I did give her 18% food to bring her post PS numbers up so she wouldn't immediately drop to a 40. I think I overcarbed her. What might have been a better option for me knowing that stalling is not the best option and also knowing that if I had shot a BCS, it probably wouldn't have really been effective that cycle...correct?

Beth: so using a little HC (in this case karo) to slow the drop is ok and doesn't do a carb overload like using HC to bring them up? This is what Mike and I were trying to achieve...use it early and hopefully avoid using it later...unfortunately...Gracie doesn't always go along with our plans. :lol: So do you think early use of karo to slow drops does not increase the bounce factor (which is also something Mike and I have been thinking...HC use at low numbers = harder bounce due to extra sugar in system??).
Click to expand...

Shooting into a falling number is risky business. I tend to do it with Attie because he has that double nadir at the end of the cycle and stalling we lose control(strong history). Keep in mind as well there are several hours until onset. The goal of shooting like that is to work the overlap and avoid peaks & spikes. You must be available to monitor because the last thing you want is onset at a hypo number. Then you have a prolonged hypo event running hours in duration.

I think carbing on the way down (fast drop) would in theory tie-up/use up the excess insulin early in the cycle, before hitting bottom. Like this morning when Attie threw me the big drop...we fed extra. Not HC or Karo, but gave him an extra mini-meal. Last night I carbed. Wrong thing to do for Attie. Gracie may do better with HC. ECID. I think much would depend on carb sensitivity.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

But because Gracie doesn't always get a food spike, I did give her 18% food to bring her post PS numbers up so she wouldn't immediately drop to a 40. I think I overcarbed her. What might have been a better option for me knowing that stalling is not the best option and also knowing that if I had shot a BCS, it probably wouldn't have really been effective that cycle...correct?
Click to expand...
I think an alternative would have been to test early/earlier -- even at +0.5. I know Gracie doesn't always respond immediately to carbs, but not giving as much carb or testing early and gauging how to intervene is an alternative. You might need to also consider when you add some HC. If Gracie drops from 300 to 250 do you give HC or is it only in lower ranges? Maybe you need to re-think the range more along the lines that Beth described (e.g., if Gracie is in the upper 100s).

Sienne: how do you time breaking the bounce with a dosecrease (increase)? Do you just let the bounce break, see what happens the next cycle and then increase? Unfortunately, on this dose, Gracie has a decent (not great) string of numbers, bounces, decent string, bounce...so I don't know when to fit in an increase. While her numbers when blue/green are good, at a higher dose, we were not getting bounces. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
To a degree, I think this is an ECID question. How long does it typically take Gracie to clear a bounce? It sounds like from what you're describing, you increase with the decent string of numbers. What I've learned with Gabby is that there are times when I think I should increase. I wait a cycle. Often, I'm ready to increase around the time I get a flat yellow cycle and then the next cycle, she's in the greens. Sometimes, it's a matter of waiting it out and other times it's a matter of increasing. And, if you figure this out, let me know. I think this is a question that those of us with bouncy kitties struggle with all the time. There isn't one "right" answer.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 DOSE & GEN ???

Beth: thank you. One of the reasons I shot it was because I was available and I did say in my condo yesterday that if it had been a pm cycle, I wouldn't have shot it; but for an a.m. cycle I did as I knew I did not want to lose any carryover...I was hoping she would just flatten out esp giving her a little extra carbs at the beginning of the cycle. I also said I did it because I have the data to do it....I don't think anyone should do it that doesn't have the data, doesn't know their cat, etc. I know it can be risky and so it shouldn't be done unless someone knows what their cat might do. I expected Gracie to drop more so I gave her HC; but I think I gave too much and instead of just maintaining a flat line...she went up; probably in part due to the HC and in part due to a bounce....altho I'm not sure why she bounced...she didn't go down fast and she didn't have any really low numbers.

Sienne: thank you. I did test her at +.5 and she was at 78 (I had given her a tiny drop of karo in her PS food). Perhaps I should have waited until I did the +.5 to give her anything or NOT given anything at the 78 (which I knew was a karo influenced number).
If Gracie drops from 300 to 250 do you give HC or is it only in lower ranges? Maybe you need to re-think the range more along the lines that Beth described (e.g., if Gracie is in the upper 100s).
Click to expand...
Any time she drops more than 50, I give her a drop of karo esp early in the cycle; if I give her HC food early in the cycle, she totally stops cold and goes up (yesterday). the weird thing is if I get a PS around 80 or 90, she drops by +2 or so and about 50/hour unlike at high numbers where she might drop 70-100/hour. Umm...I missed what Beth said...was that in my condo? What do you mean "if Gracie is in the upper 100s"? Do you mean let her drop unless she's just in the upper 100s? Or slow her drop unless she's in the upper 100s?

Mike and I get confused as to the cats, like Curry or Binks, that quite often have green PSs and they get their full dose of insulin but they don't dip really low. I watch Curry's numbers and she often has a PS in the 80s, Tena shoots, Curry nadirs between 50-60 with Tena never having to do anything. I'm assuming it's because she is at a perfect dose but aren't those cats' pancreas working? You would think that they definitely must be. It's frustrating getting to a dose where there isn't so much excess insulin that they dive but enough to get them through the entire cycle.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +2 306 +4 326 + 10 212 DOSE ??

Looks like Gracie is breaking the bounce..finally. Sienne said she'd wait until Gracie cleared the bounce so maybe she meant if she cleared today, she'd increase tonight? What am I looking for on her SS to know when I should fatten it up? In 9 cycles on this dose, she's had five with blue/green and four with ugly stinkus pinkus from the bounces. On the f1u, she had blue/green cycles every one until the last where she bounced so badly from a 38. Life has not been the same since... ohmygod_smile Also...if any of you wise ones could scroll up and offer any thoughts to my last questions, I'd be very obliged.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +4 326 +10 212 Bounce clear DOSE

Marjorie, I would not increase tonight. Her numbers may be down somewhat at this point, but that doesn't mean she has cleared the bounce.

It's important to wait for it to clear completely because if you increase too soon, the bounce will clear which sometimes causes the numbers to drop lower than normal, and with the increase on top of it, you could end up with an out of control drop. Please wait.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +4 326 +10 212 Bounce clear DOSE

Laurie: Of course I will wait!! No worries...I just wasn't sure if Sienne meant "wait until it clears and see" or "wait until it clears and increase". :-D Thanks for answering the dose question!!
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +4 326 +10 212

Moment of Silence here for Girlcat and Lorna. LL hearts are broken tonight. Now you are whole again GC and feel no pain. wings_cat So very sad for you, Lorna. You two fought as hard as you could.
 
Re: 1/16/11 Gracie AMPS 315 +4 326 +10 212

If you look at Sienne's post again, she does address the "when to increase" question....she talks about the flat yellows that she sometimes sees when she is tempted to increase...I suspect that may be the upcoming cycle with Gracie, which is why I'm saying I would hold off for now. If Gracie is heading into that cycle, with the drop at the end, and the increase kicks in at the same time, she could be headed for a big drop.

Naturally, now that I've posted my thoughts, she will do the opposite...she IS a cat, after all! ;-)
 
Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136

Laurie... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: she fooled us all didn't she? Not flat yellows, not up but down down down. And no argument from me at all...it's just here is what confused me:
Sometimes, it's a matter of waiting it out and other times it's a matter of increasing.
Click to expand...

But you're initial post answered my question. I shot the regular 1u dose and will do a +.5. Thank you!
 
Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136

Any time she drops more than 50, I give her a drop of karo esp early in the cycle; if I give her HC food early in the cycle, she totally stops cold and goes up (yesterday). the weird thing is if I get a PS around 80 or 90, she drops by +2 or so and about 50/hour unlike at high numbers where she might drop 70-100/hour. Umm...I missed what Beth said...was that in my condo? What do you mean "if Gracie is in the upper 100s"? Do you mean let her drop unless she's just in the upper 100s? Or slow her drop unless she's in the upper 100s?
Click to expand...
What I was trying to communicate is that it may not be necessary to feed HC if you see a 50 pt drop if Gracie is in the 300s. It may not even be necessary if she's in the 200s. LC may be fine. Beth isn't feeding HC unless Atlas is around 50. That may not be the right number for Gracie but you may need to tweek your strategy if you are concerned that HC is stopping numbers from naturally reaching their (safe) nadir. I meant the latter -- slow her drup unless she's at a point where you know she may end up dropping too quickly or too low.

Mike and I get confused as to the cats, like Curry or Binks, that quite often have green PSs and they get their full dose of insulin but they don't dip really low. I watch Curry's numbers and she often has a PS in the 80s, Tena shoots, Curry nadirs between 50-60 with Tena never having to do anything. I'm assuming it's because she is at a perfect dose but aren't those cats' pancreas working? You would think that they definitely must be. It's frustrating getting to a dose where there isn't so much excess insulin that they dive but enough to get them through the entire cycle.
Click to expand...
With Lantus, if the PS is already green, there isn't that far to drop. The tendency is for the kitties to surf. This is why the Lantus cycle is often described as being "flat."
 
Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136 +.5 103

Sienne: thank you so much in further explaining that to me. Sorry to be so thick-headed. I think sometimes the exhaustion keeps me from being on my toes and I'm just starting to recover from my all nighter with her on Friday night :-D I understand now what you are saying. I think we are rethinking our strategy with her and since we test alot and watch her closely, I think I'll see how she controls herself until she gets to 50. Mike and I are both comfy with a 50s surf but I would not want her to drop lower than that.

She did just drop the equivalent of 66 in an hour and she should actually be rising or staying the same between PMPS and +1 so I fed her 6% and a drop karo. I really do think the HC food is tough on her...unless we feed alot, it takes a while to build up and see action and then she skyrockets. If we feed alot, she just goes right back up. With the karo, she goes up, we can feed more LC/MC and give her a drop more if she needs it but often it will slow her down just perfectly. So we'll see tonight.

Little devil that she is, she was playing in some tissue paper with Tobey in the guest wing of the house and so I fed one of the civvies in our bedroom and proceeded to cook my dinner. I went in to get the civvie's dish, and there was Gracie licking her chops....she managed to oh so quietly sneak by me :lol: :lol: Thankfully, the civvie had the same 4% food that Gracie often gets so no harm no foul. She thought she was getting contraband :lol: :lol:
 

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Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136 +.5 103

I looooove this condo. Marjorie, you ask the best questions. I'm going to have to come back here tomorrow,when I haven't just taken a sleep aid. All this fantastic information is swimming around in my head.
 
Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136 +.5 103 +1 99 +1.5 84

better than finding this...
 

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Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136 +.5 103 +1 99 +1.5 84

Thanks Lisa and Barb. I'm sure Sienne, Laurie, Libby, Jill, and all the others dread when Mike leaves cuz then I start thinking "why, what if, how about???" :lol: :lol:
What I can't figure out is how to get this little girl under a bit more control w/out carbs. :? :?

Celi :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Dry food has been banned from this house!! :lol:
 
Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136 +1 99 +1.5 84 +2 91

Nice cycle developing here tonight.

loved all the photos! Too fun on Gracie thinking she was getting some extra special fuds. Mannie hides and waits until he civvies are done, lurking, waiting, hoping for more..... the little sneak.

Have a great night guys!
 
Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136 +1 99 +1.5 84 +2 91

WEll Whatever you are doing Worked!!! Look at that beautiful cycle!! I think the what ifs will be the things that make us crazy--I had said that we are in control--
I learned that early on with Jill & Jojo banging it into my head--And Marjorie, you are doing exactly that with the help of the others!!
Gracie is doing very well, patience, everything comes to those who are persistant and constant!! Great Job--Big HUgs from us! Go Gracie! :-D
 
Re: 1/16 Gracie PMPS 136 +1 99 +1.5 84 +2 91 +3 94

Thanks Michelle and Roni!!! I just gave her 6% food and a drop of karo (small) at .5, 1, 1.5, and 2 and then let her go. And I do mean small drops...I figured she was headed down and once the insulin hit, she would really head down. So now paws crossed she can continue to hold this on her own with no manipulation and without dropping too low. And paws crossed NO BOUNCE! We really appreciate the support we get in LL and especially from special friends like you two!
 
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