04/12 bailey uk amps 347 6u :-(

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Oh, Anna, I'm so sorry to hear this update. I'm sure that the experienced users here can tell you about high-dose cats who have become regulated and even gone into remission. Don't give up hope - anything is possible.

Sending lots of thoughts and prayers to you and Bailey. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
Shelly
 
There are experienced members here that will encourage and support you. This can be very frustrating when the numbers are still high, but you do notice improvement in Bailey's behavior and reduced drinking which are good clinical signs. So that is encouraging.. FD requires a lot of patience and stamina from the care giver.

Did you start giving insulin in February? I am sure 2 months feels like forever, but with FD it is not that long. Do you think he was undiagnosed for awhile. I wonder if his body is used to the high numbers and it just needs more time to adjust and not be so bouncy. I am praying for a breakthrough for you and Bailey. All cats are different. Not every cat responds quickly. Some cats needed high doses at first, but then go down the dose ladder. You might get some nice blue and yellow shortly.
 
Anna :YMHUG: :YMHUG: and more :YMHUG:

anna and bailey.uk england said:
shes says to not to worry until were up to abou 8-10 units then I have to admi defeat and he'll never be a well regulated cat.

I'm so sorry that things just haven't clicked for Bailey yet. There have been high dose kitties here on the board that have become regulated and even gone into remission. Please try and not despair. Just cause Bailey is having to continue up the dosing ladder does not mean that he may never become regulated. You just have not found the breakthrough dose for him yet. Please try and just take one day at a time. Just concentrate on putting one foot in front of the other and not think about what may or may not happen in the future. Things can turn around very dramatically when you least expect. Just keep following the protocol. Never say never.

:YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
 
:YMHUG: Anna :YMHUG: I agree with everyone else. Bailey may just not have found his break through dose yet. I know how hard it is to be patient. I hope Bailey shows you some signs that he is feeling better, even if his numbers are not where you would like them~ He is an adorable, I mean, handsome, kitty :-D
 
((((Anna)))) I can relate to going up the dosing scale with what seems like no end in sight. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: Neko has both acromegaly and IAA and we got up to 8.75U. She also liked to bounce a lot, well, she still does but not as high. :roll: There will be a dose for Bailey where things start to come together. There is likely some type of resistance happening in Bailey and you just have to keep marching up the dosing ladder until you overcome it. In the mean time, I know how difficult it is. Feel free to lean on us - several of us here have walked in those same shoes.

There used to be some free testing for IGF-1 at Royal Veterinary College. Look a little ways down for the Growth Hormone submission form. Maybe your or your vet can contact them and see if they still do paid analysis or know where it is done in the UK. RVC has done some seminal research on acromegaly and were the ones that discovered it is a lot more common in harder to regulate diabetic cats (up to 30%) than what was previously thought.

As for regulation, it's quite a range. Neko had stereostatic radiation therapy (SRT) almost 2 years ago and is mostly under renal threshold now. Lauren managed to keep Tommy quite regulated by following the protocol - he did not have radiation treatment. Check his SS starting in late 2011. She managed to lower his dose quite a bit. He passed away recently at age almost 20. :sad: Suzanne is doing a great job with Cobb (recently diagnosed with IAA, probably acromegaly) and he's spending a lot of time in the blues. There are numerous other examples of reasonably regulated cats.

We can't say for certain what's going on without testing. The rule of thumb is to test when their dose equals their weight in kilograms. For Neko that was 6U. Here's an article that talks about different causes of insulin resistance.
 
thankyou everyone for your words of support.it makes me feel better that people are and have been going through what we are now!

he was diagnosed in October so it just seems like forever to me that hes been like this. im no quitter so will keep ploughing on.we have good times and bad times where hes drinking lots,weeing lots but then sometimes hes not too bad.my poor little chap!!

its tough when the vets don't seem to know much about all of this so without you guys I don't feel so alone :smile:

edited to ask....do you think a different insulin may help like pzi or the like and if so at what point do we perhaps decide that?
 
Yup, my vet didn't know much either. Until the RVC study, vets were taught acromegaly was a rare condition. My vet told me I didn't need to test for high dose conditions until we got to 10U, but we never got there. But the vet was willing to learn and has since identified another acrocat in her practice.

BTW - forgot to mention that I love the new picture of him. He looks like a real love bug.
 
aw, anna, keep your chin up. i agree with wendy, it's very likely he's got one of the high dose conditions, or perhaps both iaa and acro.

punkin had acro only and he got up to 15.5u before we had him treated. Lauren's Tommy was diagnosed the same time as punkin and his IGF-1 was higher, and she did great keeping him regulated.

the best advice that people here gave me was to keep my eyes on the blood sugar numbers, not the size of the dose. I repeated that to myself a bazillion times. let's just work on getting Bailey into better numbers. When kitties are like yours, i like to refer to the Tilly page description of the protocol. It gives the option of increasing after 2 days, depending on the nadirs:

http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm
Most cats need to have their dose increased. Do it in 0.25 IU or 0.5 IU steps (0.25 IU if the cat is getting a low dose and/or relatively low BGs, 0.5 IU if the cat is getting a higher dose and/or relatively high BGs). Hold each dose for 5-7 days. However, if the cat is producing continuously high BGs (nadir always >=300 mg/dl), only hold the dose for 2-3 days before increasing it by 0.5 IU. Alternatively, if the cat is continuously producing moderately elevated BGs (nadir always >=200 mg/dl), increase the dose every 2-3 days by 0.25 IU ( if the cat is getting a low dose) or 0.5 IU (if the cat is getting a higher dose). From this point onward test for ketones once per week, or more often if the nadirs are still >=200 mg/dl.

You can see from Bailey's ss that he's getting dose increases, giving you a lower nadir (although still mostly high 200's), and then his numbers go up and stay there. Sometimes when you inch up in smaller increases, or you take too long between dose increases - even the 6 cycles recommended in most situations, it encourages the higher numbers and takes even more insulin to get the numbers down. For that reason, in your specific case, i think taking the more aggressive options listed above, using the 0.5u increases and perhaps increasing after 4 cycles on a dose until you see blues is a smart way to go. This isn't for other kitties, but specifically for Bailey because of his particular situation. I don't want lurkers to think this is the best way for most cats. For most cats we are more conservative, but cats with high dose needs aren't most cats and a more aggressive approach can be more helpful for them.

if you want to change insulins, i would go to Levemir (detemir) not PZI. We know that longer duration helps smooth out a cat's blood sugar and that's all better for them. PZI's duration is shortest of these three insulins, Lantus is in the middle, and Levemir has the longest duration. But you can keep on with the Lantus and if you want to switch, i'd use up the Lantus first. It works fine. If Bailey begins to flinch when you're giving him shots, he may be reacting to the acidic base of the Lantus. It didn't bother punkin but it does bother some cats, and sometimes it begins to bother them as the dose gets larger. Levemir has a neutral base and doesn't sting. Here is a good link on what the differences are between these two. http://www.diabetesclinic.ca/en/diab/2treat/lantus_vs_levemir.htm

We have several high dose kitties here. You're not alone. We'll continue to help you, so don't despair. You will get to the right dose and Bailey will get under control. :YMHUG:
 
he loves his snuggles.only with me mind ;-)

yeah it worries me the vets know nothing even about lantus really. I think shes learning from bailey! yeah shes said 10u is what they class as high dose. plus my bails is 15.9kg so quite a big boy so I don't know how that works out per units/kg etc. im not very good with maths!

Julie would you say then I increase 0.5u after 4 cycles. my vet thinks im on 5.5u but ive not really followed what shes told me the whole way along :-O and have done what you guys have said.ive got to do whats right for bailey and not what the vet THINKS is right! I agree a couple of the nadirs have been lower but weve had no blue numbers as yet.

I cant even begin to tell you all how much I love this little guy.hes my EVERYTHING and I just want him better.hes only 8 with hopefully his little life ahead of him and I don't want him struggling like this for ever! so with youre help and encouragement,i just hope we get there.xx
 
that's what I would do.

you can't be too hard on your vet - most of them don't know much if anything about high dose conditions. most of them don't have much experience with feline diabetes either. it's a condition that gets 15 minutes in one lecture during vet school - literally. One thing you can do for your vet is to give them the research documents that we've compiled here.

On the "tight regulation" yellow starred sticky, you can download the document about 5 paragraphs down that is about Managing a Diabetic Cat using Long-Lasting Insulin. On the "New to the Group" sticky, scroll to the very bottom and there are single topic links, including two that have lots within them on high dose conditions. Look for the 2 that say "acromegaly" in the titles. They do have info on insulin autoantibodies as well. The one Wendy just gave you is good too.

I'm glad Wendy did the research for you on the Veterinary college in London. You could contact them and ask questions.

We consider cats over 6u per dose to be likely having either Cushings, acromegaly or insulin autoantibodies (iaa). Pancreatitis can drive up blood sugar too, but i don't think we've had cats pass 6u and only have pancreatitis. Cushings is pretty obvious because the cat's skin is incredibly delicate and it tears easily, like when you touch them. The others have symptoms, which you can read about on the pages mentioned above.
 
hes been checked for pancreatitis numerous times and hasn't got that and he certainly hasn't got delicate skin so those two are DEFINATELY ruled out so must be the latter!
I don't know how my vet would take ,me giving her info cos she seems to like to think she knows it all so its abit of a tricky situation.ive just got to do whats right for him. barr you guys on here i feel completely alone with all of this,its terrifying!
 
anna and bailey.uk england said:
....do you think a different insulin may help like pzi or the like and if so at what point do we perhaps decide that?

Hi Anna,

Just looked up your recent posts cos I was wondering how you were doing.

I see that Bailey still has high BG numbers, and I do so know how frustrating that can be, so you have my absolute sympathy.

My Bertie had very high numbers - interspersed with sudden lows - for a very long time after he was diagnosed. It was extremely demoralising.
But he did eventually get into better numbers. Over time he did seem to get better at utilising insulin, and his pancreas has got better at producing some insulin of it's own.
A serendipitous change of insulin helped us too...

Very Short Story:
We started out on Caninsulin. It didn't work for us. So we switched to a veterinary PZI that was available at that time. Bert's numbers improved a bit.
Then the veterinary PZI was discontinued and I persuaded the vet to prescribe us a 'human' PZI, 'Hypurin Bovine PZI'. It's only one amino acid away from a cat's own insulin.
It's worked really well for us.
It has a very long duration (longer than other PZI's) but still lends itself well to sliding scale dosage. It seems to me to be like the 'love child' of Lantus and 'regular' PZI!

If Lantus isn't working for you then, IMHO, it may be worth your trying Hypurin Bovine PZI....?
Sometimes a change of insulin can make a lot of difference...

Best wishes,

Eliz
 
OOOH ive just read on that link posted, that urinary tract infections can cause insulin resistance.hes suffered ALL his life with this on and off.i wonder if this has something to do with it.it also says in 40% of cases theres no symptoms.hes been on antibiotics cos hes HAD symptoms 2 weeks ago!!
 
anna and bailey.uk england said:
my bails is 15.9kg so quite a big boy so I don't know how that works out per units/kg etc. im not very good with maths!
Hi Anna,
Did you mean he's 15.9 pounds or 15.9 kilograms? I'm just asking because 15.9kg is 35lbs. That's a real big boy.
 
Any sort of infection or inflammation can cause BG numbers to be elevated. A UTI can definitely cause high BG levels. Do you have any idea what condition Bailey's teeth are in? Many of our kitties have tartar or gingivitis which has been know to throw OTJ cats out of remission.

When Bailey was diagnosed with a UTI, how was the diagnosis made? Did the vet collect urine via a needle in the bladder (i.e., cystocentesis) and then run a culture and sensitivity (C & S) in order to determine which antibiotic would best target the infection? If not, Bailey may be taking an antibiotic that isn't effectively treating the infection. In addition, if the diagnosis was based on blood in the urine, it could be a condition called sterile cystitis and antibiotics may not be effective since this is an inflammatory condtition and not an infection.
 
thank sienna.she took a urine sample and said that is full of sugar and because of me knowing the signs of urinary tract or cystitis.i.e he goes back in his tray even after hes just been then curls up in a corner for 5 mins,she said it sounds like cystitis but before I moved vets he had strauvite crystals and urinary infections like 5 times in 6 years so im guessing this glucose in his urine isn't helping.its like it then fades and hes ok for a few days but I don't want him in pain so I get it treated.no checks from the vet other than that :roll: (saying that she did run into the road,and stopped the traffic to collect a urine sample as he was so stressed getting out my car he weed through the cage so she collected it in a dish underneath....my poor boy!! ) ive got a funny feeling this could absolutely be the reason for the insulin resistance.
its such a nightmare for Bailey,me ,and the vet when we go cos whatever he has done or is checked for,he has to be quite heavily sedated due to his nature in the outside world.he goes wild!!
edited to say..... his teeth are in good condition although his gums look a little red.his teeth are pristine!!! (hes been on dry food all his life which has probably helped teeth.....................but caused the diabetes :-( )

sorry dyana I missed keyed.hes 5.9kg lol.heck if he was 15.9kg I wouldn't be able to pick him up.!!!! what is that in lbs?
 
Ummm..... It's a myth that dry food is good for a cat's teeth. Cats in the wild do not eat dry food and largely, their teeth are fine. If you look at it another way, I doubt that any of us would have decent teeth if all we ate were crunchy cookies and crackers. It would be the same thing as Bailey eating dry food.

Red gums are indicative of gingivitis -- an inflammation of the gums. It may be contributing to the higher numbers.
 
any kind of infection can cause higher numbers. that is definitely worth ruling out.

I should clarify on a couple of things. The "official" standard for deciding that a cat may have a high dose condition is more than 1.5u per kg per dose. So if he weighs 6kg, that would be 9u. here, we usually start talking about it when a cat reaches 6units per dose, but as you said, he's a big boy.

also, on the duration of Lev/Lantus - In the studies they seem to be about the same, but there have been some cats in which Lev seems to last longer. On the page that i referred to about the difference between Lantus and Lev, it says:

In some studies, Levemir has demonstrated less variable, steadier blood glucose-lowering effects compared to both NPH insulin and Lantus.
.

The protocol for dosing with these two is identical. We stayed with Lantus the whole time and i liked it. I think ruling out or treating infections would be your first tactic. Then at a point if you have used up your Lantus and are ready to buy more, you could decide at that time if you want to try Lev. Either one is very good.

Looking at the download on Managing a cat's Diabetes using Long-Lasting Insulin that I mentioned earlier, in their studies they had better success with cats going into remission with Lantus and Lev compared to Protamine Zinc Insulin. I"m not sure how that compares to what Elizabeth is referring to, if it's the same insulin or not.
 
Anna, Ian Frazer (my vet) has tested my Bailey for Acromegaly,he sent blood away and said it would take a couple of weeks to get results,so this test must be readily available in the UK.

Diane
 
BaileyUK said:
Anna, Ian Frazer (my vet) has tested my Bailey for Acromegaly,he sent blood away and said it would take a couple of weeks to get results,so this test must be readily available in the UK.

Diane

Yes, indeed. As Diane says, the test certainly is available, otherwise other UK acrocats would not have been able to have their condition diagnosed....
confused_cat

@Diane ~ I'm keeping fingers and paws crossed for you that the acro test is negative for Bailey.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
...in their studies they had better success with cats going into remission with Lantus and Lev compared to Protamine Zinc Insulin. I"m not sure how that compares to what Elizabeth is referring to, if it's the same insulin or not.
Hi,

The Hypurin PZI hasn't been used in any comparative studies.
It only started to be used in cats a few years ago following the discontinuation of veterinary PZI's in the UK.

Many vets at that point put all cats back onto Caninsulin. But some vets saw Hypurin as the natural successor to veterinary PZI's. (And I guess it is. But it is not the same.) Some people who thought that it would be the same as the previous PZI's suddenly found their cats getting lower preshot numbers. And doses tended to need reducing because of the long duration and overlap. (It is unclear whether it has actual depot properties).
Despite the long duration it still seems to have a lot of the flexibility of 'regular' PZI's in that doses can be changed, and the timing of shots can be changed with relative ease.

Hypurin PZI is made in the UK by Wockhardt. In humans it can last 24 - 36 hours. (As I understand it, cats metabolize insulin at about twice the speed humans do.)

There are a few FDMB'ers using it, but they rarely seem to post. Juliet (Dr Schrodinger) who posts here regularly used it for her cat, Milo. He went into remission soon afterwards.

My cat, Bert, isn't a candidate for remission. And he's a particularly 'tricky' diabetic. But I can still achieve good control of his numbers for most of the time with Hypurin (far better than I thought would be possible for us, actually!)

Eliz
 
that's good to know about the 9u with baileys weight being 6kg!

I will get the vet to do a full overhaul of him when he goes in.it worth checking everything.

thanks diane for letting me know that they can test for acromegaly here.i didn't know.

thankyou ALL!
 
I believe the test result that is over 1000 is positive.

While there is not SRT available to you in UK, there is treatment... I know a lady in a facebook group with me who went for the treatment.
As well, another member had her acro in a trial with medication working for her cat.

Please do not worry that the same treatment here is not available for you; there are alternatives available for you.

Gayle
 
Hi Anna -

I'm Lu-Ann and my boy Grayson is an insulin resistant Acro kitty. In a recent article about the RVC, I thought the following about testing and treatment would be of interest to you:

UK (free test): http://www.rvc.ac.uk/CIC/Current/Internal.cfm

or through any vet for about 90 pounds.

from that post within our group: [UK vets: please send diabetic cases to the Remission Clinic at the RVC and cases will benefit from free underlying disease checks, 6 months free insulin, 1 year free food, whilst advancing science! fdrc@rvc.ac.uk @thatvetoffthetv @fdrc]

Didn't know if you were aware of this, or how close you are to them.

Most high-dosers use Levemir insulin, as it is pH-neutral and doesn't sting as Lantus seems to at the higher doses. However, I believe most of our other high dose friends in the UK have only been able to get Lantus... but that has worked well for them.

As with the others here, I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Lu-Ann
 
hi lu ann
thanks for that bit of info.unfortunately we are miles away (5 hours by car) from this.would I pay £90 for the vet to do these test is that what you mean?
il try anything to get him right.
 
Grayson & Lu said:
Most high-dosers use Levemir insulin, as it is pH-neutral and doesn't sting as Lantus seems to at the higher doses. However, I believe most of our other high dose friends in the UK have only been able to get Lantus...

Levemir is available in the UK, but not many vets are familiar with it. It's just a matter of luck as to whether a vet in your area uses this insulin (or hasn't used it but would be willing to prescribe it.) A vet is much more likely to be familiar with Hypurin PZI or Lantus.

If it turns out that Bailey does have a high dose condition - and the Lantus isn't suitable for him for whatever reason - then the vet should be willing to prescribe an alternative. But sometimes they do need to be nudged... :roll:

Here's hoping Bailey is feeling better soon.
You're doing a great job, Anna.

(((hugs)))

Eliz
 
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