? 02/05 Hercules Can you help with a plan to stop diving/bouncing?

Hercule's mum

Hercule's mum

Member Since 2020
Morning everyone,

previously: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...s-amps-457-9-261-pmps-94.246815/#post-2784073

Hercs continues on his cycle of diving and bouncing, and I would like to develop a plant to tackle it....

as @SashaV has pointed out, in Feb we had a more stable time, but his dose were much higher. Seems like that kept him from bouncing?

Lately, he goes into lime green and red in equal measures.... I would like to stop it but not sure how

So, if there is an offical protocol to reduce dives can anyone point me to it?

This is what I was thinking (in case there is no plan already). Each cycle his food is divided in 4 equal parts, which currently are given to him in 2 hour intervals. I think it is good to keep this as he can dive late in the cycle, but it is bad, when he is diving early?

At AMPS/PMPS always feed 9% carb
at +2: keep with 9% if similar value. reduce to 2% if significantly higher. Move him up to 15% if lower and meassure again at +1?

The trick then is what to do at the next 2 hour intervals. What is a "healthy decrease"? 20 points/hour? so if he decreases more than this bring in 15%, if about this amount keep on 9%, if less move to 2%


Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

Any, I mean any, suggestion is very welcome!
 
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As far as I know, the only thing is to wait it out. :oops:
I've heard Lev sometimes helps flatten the cycles, and that's really what you need!

Have you tried closer to zero carbs?
I read something about carbs makes humans pancreas produce insulin to counteract the carbs. So maybe instead of giving carbs, try removing them? If he is producing his own juice, no matter how little or much you give, will be too much...I think.

There wasn't anything different in February?
Did he exercise more? Less? Ate different, at different times?

I seriously don't know what Herc is doing, or why, or how to avoid it. I'm beginning to have a tiny understanding of how one thought resetting was a good idea. Funny story, I got myself kicked out of the FB group that advised a CG to reset, I advised against it, since the cat was yellow..... ss was ALL yellow. :woot::banghead: point is, perhaps it would give an idea of if he's bouncing because he's getting too much juice? But is it even possible to bounce all the way up to red, if let's say he IS producing his own? Or would it look different? I don't think it's safe to increase his dose... Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud. Resetting seems stupid, increasing seems unsafe, maybe decrease? In hopes of decreasing his bouncing?

Not advising, just thinking out loud. PLEASE correct me, if I'm totally out of line :bighug:
 
I sympathize with you so much! Fred is a bouncer, though not to the dives that Hercules seems to experience. His bounces are just frustratingly long in duration.

Please nobody kill me for suggesting this, but have you thought about using Hills m/d? I know..I know..high carb, etc. But I just read an interesting article by the moderator of a French diabetic cats group. She fully acknowledged that they do things a bit differently than we do here, but that they've had success with bouncing cats and Hills m/d dry. They need more insulin (and in her words, "But who cares?") but they don't have the dives and spikes and have been able to become better regulated. I'd imagine cost could be a factor, though...more insulin usage and expensive Rx food.

Again, just a thought! It is not mean to go against any other advice kindly given here.
 
I sympathize too. Cosmo is a bouncer himself :eek:

Our current efforts that we are experimenting with are to try to find the end of the bounce and attempt to bring him down slower and more gently. Anything more than a 70 pt drop makes him bounce. We are trying to catch it and feed some HC to help slow the drop. We have ‘some’ success with it so far. It doesn’t always come at the beginning of a cycle, but really at any time, which makes us think of cycles a bit differently some days.

Looking at your SS, it looks as though the bounces seem to last about 12 hours from the start of the bounce, whenever that starts. If my math is right, it might be around your +5 today. It might be time to pull out a higher carb food at that time, once you see it start?

I am certainly not an expert at it or have it figured out. This is where the art of FD comes in and trial and error come in. I’ll tag a few people that are quite good with feeding the curve:

@Wendy&Neko @Marje and Gracie @Sienne and Gabby (GA)

Good luck!
 
There is no tried and true method for stopping bounces. I wish there were! Gabby was bouncy and could dive into low numbers. I will pass along the wisdom that was imparted to me by one of the old timers on the board.

Ideally, you want to aim for a cycle that may have a bit of blue at pre-shot time but is largely green. One way to slowly get there is to try to avoid your kitty getting reductions. As soon as you see numbers falling, especially if they are high to start out with and it looks like there's going to be a fast drop, intervene with food to prop up the numbers. As some point, Hercules isn't going to give you a choice about reducing. The point is to try to get your cat's liver and pancreas to stop panicking.

The shift to this method is not an overnight success. It takes time and patience.

@Purrberry: I would not involve a dry food in the mix. I honestly don't know what the rationale would be. From a nutritional standpoint, M/D is really a poor quality food. If something higher carb is needed, there are much better choices especially since dry food is not well suited for an animal that's an obligate carnivore.
 
Thanks everyone, for your suggestions! Sorry I was away from my computer most of the day.

Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
deally, you want to aim for a cycle that may have a bit of blue at pre-shot time but is largely green.
Click to expand...

Purrberry said:
have you thought about using Hills m/d?
Click to expand...
I have...and I see the point. We are getting closer to go to 13% (which is what M/D is), but Hercs happens to not like it at all (and je likes pretty much everything), is the food we stated with after vets diagnosis.....

thebigfuzz said:
to find the end of the bounce and attempt to bring him down slower and more gently
Click to expand...
That is exactly what I am trying to do, but as you point out the first problem is to know when the bounce stopped, the second is how to stop him diving.

thebigfuzz said:
Anything more than a 70 pt drop makes him bounce
Click to expand...
That is a very helpful reference. Do you meassure every hour? and do you give HC even if cosmo is at say 300, but has dropped 70 points?

Hi Sienne, can you expand on this idea?
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
deally, you want to aim for a cycle that may have a bit of blue at pre-shot time but is largely green
Click to expand...
 
Purrberry said:
@Sienne and Gabby (GA) To be honest, I would agree with you. It is not what I feed my cat. I had just read this article (and she promotes joining FDMB!) and thought that the ECID axiom could apply. The rationale is that the Rx diets are formulated to keep the glucose more stable, which could be helpful for a bouncer.

https://climbtothestars.org/archives/2020/04/15/feline-diabetes-my-advice-for-diabetic-cats/
Click to expand...
It's probably GI index? The same could fibres do. But it also lowers the BG, which can be dangerous. Specially with Hercs, when he decides to skydive out of nowhere.
 
@Purrberry - There's a flaw in her logic. The "prescription" foods are not prescription. In fact, the pet food manufacturers lost a class action suit due to their calling foods "prescription." There is nothing that even closely resembles anything prescriptive in the foods. Stephanie refers to M/D as "therapeutic" -- and again, I'd say there's nothing therapeutic about it. I'm not a big supporter of any food that contains powdered cellulose (that's a polite name for sawdust). The biggest considerations for me are that dry foods are inappropriate for cats. Cats are obligate carnivores and can't digest the corn, wheat, and potato that are in the food. (It also makes for very stinky poop.) My other big concern is that cats do not have a huge thirst drive. From an evolutionary standpoint, they get most of their liquid from their prey. Dry food has very little moisture -- usually around 10% or less. Compare this to canned food which is often around 75%. This is of huge importance in a diabetic cat. Diabetes is very hard on the kidneys. Water is very good for the kidneys. Even with my two non-diabetic cats, I routinely add lots of water to their food since cats in general are prone to kidney issues (and even more so if the cat is diabetic). And to further beat this issue into the ground, dry food can turn rancid due to its fat content and exposure to air.

As for the person who wrote the blog, she was a member here and it's where she learned about diabetes management.
 
@Hercule's mum - If you're attempting to get from the wide swings of a bounce to a flatter cycle, I found it to be a relief if I could get the pre-shot numbers in the lower end of the blues and the nadir in the mid-greens. I'm not sure I ever fully achieved that with Gabby but her cycles did become less volatile. It's a slow process of trying to prevent the lows the trigger both a dose reduction and a bounce. Essentially, you're looking to flatten the curve so you're moving the numbers from yellows to blues to greens. If you look at some of the spreadsheets for OTJ cats, you're likely to see that progression.
 
I hear you Sienne, but after a year, I have not managed to get hercules flat. The problem is that at the end of every bounce is a dive.... and after a dive is a bounce.... I don't seem to be able to stop the bounce, but I am hoping there is a way to reduce the dives? maybe if he gently comes down a few points after a bounce, and can stop the cycle?
 
Hercule's mum said:
That is a very helpful reference. Do you meassure every hour? and do you give HC even if cosmo is at say 300, but has dropped 70 points?
Click to expand...
70 is what we have noticed with Cosmo if the 70 pt drop is within 2-3hra of the last test. Yes, we do try to feed some HC in those instances, even if still in the 300’s. Some cycles we have some success with it, but others, not so much :banghead: Most times the drop is just too much :rolleyes:
 
Good luck with the food experiment. The +2 does seem to be a really good indicator with Hercules, telling you when you have to intervene with more carbs to slow him down. Reducing the dives is definitely a good goal. I found bounces from steep dives were worse numbers than bounces from lower numbers.
 
He dived another 50 points down last night with 13% from +2 to +3. I am brought the big guns out, just to see if there is any hope in stoping these dives....20g of 30%!:eek: That did it! but was perhaps a big too much....

He is at it again this morning, so just fed him 15%. That seems to be a bit better?
 
I tought I was doing a good job today! :facepalm:
Surely, after going up twice would have been safe to stop testing.... Do I need to feed him past the half of the cycle?
 
It looks pretty good to me from your SS. A nice yellow preshot to have a nice blue/green cycle tonight :cool::D
 
Thanks for the encouragement.... It is not quite going as I was hoping.... I checked him at +1 and he dropped a bit. I gave him a tbs of 30%. 30%! and he dropped a whole lot more...:eek:
Maybe i can't stop his divings....
 
Its a nice start of PM cycle. I think what Hercules does is exactly what Chico does, the difference is that Chico does it in the same exact time meanwhile Hercules is a bit leas predictable. I believe the point is not to be afraid if he keeps higher, its all about experimenting with food, think abt it like this: if you overcarb him the only thing that will happen is in that cycle he will be slightly higher than he would be without the carbs, at least you would know how he reacts. Don’t be afraid to take out the big guns whenever you see too steep of a drop. We want Chico as well to go lower but with this pattern, even if he does its only for 1 hour and then he jumps right higher. If we force him to stay up he will stay at that higher level. You can check Chico’s SS now, i think we will have to increase again in a few days... not pleasant but necessary. we hope that by going to a better dose he will stop having these dives: experimenting :)
 
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