Panic June 4th AMPS 257
- Thread starter Panic
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Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
Hi again!
I saw you talking @CandyH and Catcat about feeding - good idea. I feed Lantus patient, it's different.
The only thing I - as a non- user of Vetsulin - can add is that portion from the Basics.
Just to raise awareness that food given at or post nadir (the lowest of the cycle) will cut duration short which for Vetsulin isn't helpful BC = high Preshot=more risks for low dives=invitation for a bounce.
Use the smallest portions lc past nadir possible and it should be ok, I think.
Here is the that piece:
FEEDING SCHEDULES - CANINSULIN (VETSULIN)
Do not be tempted to reduce the amount of your cat’s food in hopes that this will reduce her overall BG levels. This could be detrimental to your cat’s health. Your cat needs to eat an appropriate amount of food for her size and weight. There are certain circumstances, however, when it is helpful to temporarily withhold food (or rather, to delay feeding): these circumstances are explained further down this section.
Q: Why is my cat so hungry?
When initially diagnosed your cat may behave like she is starving. That’s because prolonged high BG, and insufficient insulin, make it hard for her body to utilise her food. Once her BG is under better control her appetite should return to normal.
Your cat may need feeding more than twice a day. Many cats do well on a number of smaller meals fed throughout the day. Some cats can be ‘free fed’ for much of the time.
Multi-cat households
It can be helpful to get all cats in a household onto diabetic-friendly food if possible. The best diet for diabetic cats is great for most non-diabetics too.
I saw you talking @CandyH and Catcat about feeding - good idea. I feed Lantus patient, it's different.
The only thing I - as a non- user of Vetsulin - can add is that portion from the Basics.
Just to raise awareness that food given at or post nadir (the lowest of the cycle) will cut duration short which for Vetsulin isn't helpful BC = high Preshot=more risks for low dives=invitation for a bounce.
Use the smallest portions lc past nadir possible and it should be ok, I think.
Here is the that piece:
FEEDING SCHEDULES - CANINSULIN (VETSULIN)
Do not be tempted to reduce the amount of your cat’s food in hopes that this will reduce her overall BG levels. This could be detrimental to your cat’s health. Your cat needs to eat an appropriate amount of food for her size and weight. There are certain circumstances, however, when it is helpful to temporarily withhold food (or rather, to delay feeding): these circumstances are explained further down this section.
- There are particular considerations when using faster-acting insulins such as Caninsulin (Vetsulin), - especially for newcomers or for those with little or no data about how their cat responds. This is because the insulin can sometimes drop the BG fast in the first few hours of the cycle.
- It can be a good idea to feed your cat 20 - 30 minutes before giving insulin. This ensures there is food on board for when the insulin starts to work. So, the sequence would be: 1. Test BG. 2. Feed. 3. Wait 20 - 30 mins. 4. Give the insulin shot. (If you are not yet home testing it is still advisable to feed and then wait before giving the shot).
- Some caregivers feed a snack (or part of the main meal) an hour and a half to two hours after the shot, to slow down the rate at which the BG is dropping.
- If you can determine when your cat's nadir (lowest BG) typically occurs during a 12-hour cycle, you can try to make food available at that time. Timed feeders can be helpful for folks who can’t be there in person to feed their cat.
- ‘Bouncing’: If the BG drops too fast this may be sensed as ‘dangerous’ by the body whether the cat is actually in danger or not. (‘Too fast’ could mean faster than 100 mg/dL [5.5 mmol/L] per hour - although the ‘trigger’ number varies from cat to cat.) When this happens the body may seek to protect itself by releasing stored glucose, thereby raising the BG to a much higher level. We call this ‘bouncing’ - a common phenomenon - and bouncing can happen when the BG drops too fast and/or too low. As said above, it may be possible to slow down the rate that the BG is dropping by feeding a snack. It may also be that a dose reduction is appropriate. DO post on the Main Health forum if you need further advice
- Some caregivers using Caninsulin (Vetsulin) withhold food for the second half of the cycle, to slow down the rate at which the BG rises as the effect of the insulin wears off. If your cat’s BG rises fast after the peak of the cycle you may find this technique useful.
- In any case it can be helpful, if possible, to withhold food for the two hours prior to a pre-shot BG test. This is just to ensure that the test result is a ‘true’ reading and isn’t influenced by food.
Q: Why is my cat so hungry?
When initially diagnosed your cat may behave like she is starving. That’s because prolonged high BG, and insufficient insulin, make it hard for her body to utilise her food. Once her BG is under better control her appetite should return to normal.
Your cat may need feeding more than twice a day. Many cats do well on a number of smaller meals fed throughout the day. Some cats can be ‘free fed’ for much of the time.
Multi-cat households
It can be helpful to get all cats in a household onto diabetic-friendly food if possible. The best diet for diabetic cats is great for most non-diabetics too.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
Another thing that been nagging me:
Did I read it correctly that you give Panic raw egg? As in whole raw egg?
Every day?
I read here that raw Egg White can cause delay in absorption in the GI track.
I could not find the post.
Egg Yoke on the other hand is beneficial for motility and often recommended in small portions - like 1/4 of a tea spoon every now and then.
What if Panic's weight could be explained by the lack of absorption?
If it were my cat I'd like to rule out possible Egg White effect and cancel it all together for a few weeks. The fewer variables the clearer the picture, imho.
A bit of Egg Yoke is ok.
Did I read it correctly that you give Panic raw egg? As in whole raw egg?
Every day?
I read here that raw Egg White can cause delay in absorption in the GI track.
I could not find the post.
Egg Yoke on the other hand is beneficial for motility and often recommended in small portions - like 1/4 of a tea spoon every now and then.
What if Panic's weight could be explained by the lack of absorption?
If it were my cat I'd like to rule out possible Egg White effect and cancel it all together for a few weeks. The fewer variables the clearer the picture, imho.
A bit of Egg Yoke is ok.
Panic
Member Since 2019
Every day, no. I only offer her one maybe every 2-3 days, she very rarely eats more than half, and I only started adding it more frequently within maybe the past couple weeks? Just as a way to get more calories in her. I looked around the forums to see if raw eggs were fine and saw where some people offered it to their cats so assumed it was safe. I do not think the eggs are what's causing the weight issue because the egg in the diet is fairly recent BUT I will cut back to a very small amount like you listed and see if that helps any! Thank you for pointing that out.
This makes sense, so it's important to figure out when each cat's nadir is to find the "cut-off" for food till the next cycle to help coast them through it? If I'm understanding right then, if say a cat's nadir is +5 (just throwing out a number) then you want to stop giving food at +5?
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
thanks Tanya, I knew I'd read that it's advisable to hold back on food after nadir, but I hadn't read the Basics for awhile so wasn't sure where I'd seen that
egg -- as a former hobby chicken keeper, I'm aware of salmonellosis -- I grew up on raw egg mixed with fresh orange juice (pre Orange Julius), but now avoid raw -- occasionally I have scrambled eggs for breakfast or brunch, now in deference to Catcat, I cook them in coconut oil, season only with black pepper, scoop out a little as a post-test treat for him, season my own portion on the plate with whatever I choose (salt, green Tabasco) -- he's not crazy for egg, but likes it, especially if I top with bonito flakes
I'm trying to analyze what's going on, from Catcat's spreadsheet -- of course looking to see lower numbers at test -- thinking about returning to 1u from this "skinny 1u" aka .9 -- plunger bottom past the 1u mark, plunger top just short of lining up -- am juggling "higher dose giving higher numbers > reduce dose" and "lower dose giving higher numbers > increase dose" --
may just bite the bullet, drag out checkbook and have vet do the dental cleaning (preliminary estimate $400 plus way more if extractions needed) -- she feels, and makes sense to me, to get that done before insulin change
egg -- as a former hobby chicken keeper, I'm aware of salmonellosis -- I grew up on raw egg mixed with fresh orange juice (pre Orange Julius), but now avoid raw -- occasionally I have scrambled eggs for breakfast or brunch, now in deference to Catcat, I cook them in coconut oil, season only with black pepper, scoop out a little as a post-test treat for him, season my own portion on the plate with whatever I choose (salt, green Tabasco) -- he's not crazy for egg, but likes it, especially if I top with bonito flakes
I'm trying to analyze what's going on, from Catcat's spreadsheet -- of course looking to see lower numbers at test -- thinking about returning to 1u from this "skinny 1u" aka .9 -- plunger bottom past the 1u mark, plunger top just short of lining up -- am juggling "higher dose giving higher numbers > reduce dose" and "lower dose giving higher numbers > increase dose" --
may just bite the bullet, drag out checkbook and have vet do the dental cleaning (preliminary estimate $400 plus way more if extractions needed) -- she feels, and makes sense to me, to get that done before insulin change
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
In short - yes, no food past nadir.
But it rather a blanket statement.
BC ECID it may not be the case for Panic.
Maybe she'll do fine or better with a little LC snack late in the cycle.
1 or 1.5 teaspoon of LC = small snack. Or just a few pieces of LC treats.
Experimenting - feeding and testing BG with and without food influences and then looking at the resulting BG tests in conjunction with the current dose and the time of cycle will help evaluating the dose. If you feed late and the numbers trending up dramatically by the next preshot then reduce the late portions to minuscule, test the BG and see if that help the numbers.
(Hate to overload you on info.)
I wish there was a set of short instructions how to handle it all but because ECID it is all vary per cat's individual food/ carbs sensitivity and insulin responses (hence so many questions usually asked of newer patients).
("Just get a scoop of cat food twice a day, bada bing bada boom, done!" -
- sorry, won't be happening anytime soon for either you or I. I wish thou).The Vetsulin Basics is probably the best possible common guidance.
The rest is to be figured out for each cat individually and fine tuned accordingly.
(tip: The person who compiled the Vetsulin Basics is still an active member of this Board and posts periodically.
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
guidance is helpful, maybe even crucial --
I was fortunate, even our vet's curve helped us determine when Catcat's nadir falls
Panic is a whole 'nother situation -- ECID in spades
sounds from all that's been said lately, ProZinc might be a great idea for Panic -- check with the vet, see what occurs
remember, I'm still another newbie, fumbling --if not in the dark, at least in fog
getting to be +2 -- I'm thinking of testing, see how much his BG has dropped -- usually it's about 100 points, but info is knowledge
ugh!
-- +2= 365 -- AMPS was 337 -- now what?? am sure it wasn't a fur shot, could be a bounce, could be that the droplet was on edge of too small (and I had to prick twice, first one smeared as I collected it) --- 
I was fortunate, even our vet's curve helped us determine when Catcat's nadir falls
Panic is a whole 'nother situation -- ECID in spades
sounds from all that's been said lately, ProZinc might be a great idea for Panic -- check with the vet, see what occurs
remember, I'm still another newbie, fumbling --if not in the dark, at least in fog
getting to be +2 -- I'm thinking of testing, see how much his BG has dropped -- usually it's about 100 points, but info is knowledge
ugh!
-- +2= 365 -- AMPS was 337 -- now what?? am sure it wasn't a fur shot, could be a bounce, could be that the droplet was on edge of too small (and I had to prick twice, first one smeared as I collected it) ---
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Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
not solely for the food cut off.
It is the most important piece of data to know - tells if you can keep the dose or need to adjust, what to expect of a current cycle so you can plan your own going out /to work, etc. Knowing the onset, nadir and duration of the current dose is The Goal and t'is what give you some control over the curve.
Vetsulin is well known "dropper" - can potentially drop the BG very quickly and very early in the cycle at its onset.
Knowing when it is and feeding a little food some time prior to (for Lantus patient Ducia I do 45 - 60 min 2 teaspoon meal but it is very ECID) helps slowing down that drop but given at nadir it can abort the entire cycle.
No drops=less reasons to bounce, cat's liver slowly starts getting used to being in"low" numbers.
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Panic
Member Since 2019
Ah, rats. +3 was 692 on Alphatrak. Wonder if that AMPS was too unnaturally low for her and caused another bounce.
I think that's the hardest part - ECID. I guess we don't get to blanket statement much when there's so many different variables for every cat. This is helpful though, thank you Tanya. I will try to record her food each day and see if we can finally get some sort of pattern enough to decipher - though hopefully on Thursday at the vet I can get the vet to agree with me to make an insulin switch and get some stabilization. This Vetsulin is just throwing her all over the place, poor girl!
Isn't it so frustrating!! At least his looks like a teeny incline and nothing overdramatic. *cough Panic cough*
Wonder if that AMPS was too unnaturally low for her and caused another bounce.I think that's the hardest part - ECID. I guess we don't get to blanket statement much when there's so many different variables for every cat. This is helpful though, thank you Tanya. I will try to record her food each day and see if we can finally get some sort of pattern enough to decipher - though hopefully on Thursday at the vet I can get the vet to agree with me to make an insulin switch and get some stabilization. This Vetsulin is just throwing her all over the place, poor girl!
ugh!
Isn't it so frustrating!! At least his looks like a teeny incline and nothing overdramatic. *cough Panic cough*
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
darn
that's enough Panic, get down already!the time is suitable to think "bounce"...
if her last food was LC and consumed over an hour ago I'd say it is bounce.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
it worth your while to try, imo.
I keep thinking about Panic being so low weight.
Just trowing an idea here for you to talk over with the vet - some parasites cause low weight, as well thyroid dysfunction.
I am very curious to see what the vet thinks/ suggest to do about the weight gain.
Do you check for ketones?
A Negative ketone test would be so very very reassuring at this time.
..otherwise I keep getting "increase" thought raising in my mind.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
You did exactly right - and the food amounts are good. Timing of it looks good to me too.
Bouncing is natural - it is part of the defense mechanism triggered to protect the organism from going Hypo.
It's installed by Mother Nature into every being including humans and none of us can fight Mother Nature. We can only work with it familiarizing cat to be lower than usual.
BC Panic had high numbers for long that Yellow AMPS has surely scared the heck out of that Panicy Liver (no pun intended as President O"Bama used to say) and it released some counteracting hormones. That's its job, its natural.
Panic
Member Since 2019
When I initially took her in I was concerned about her constant diarrhea so we actually did a lot of tests about a parasite or bacterial infection, she kept coming up clean. Then we did like a full lab-work or whatever it's called, where she basically was checking on all of her organs and making sure they were fine, including the thyroid which the vet wondered was the issue. Nope - perfectly fine. Literally the only problem we could find was her BG levels. Am I right in thinking once she's starts getting regulated her body will start using her food properly again and help her gain the weight back?
I just bought the ketone strips the day before but I haven't caught her peeing - she doesn't like the new litter box (it's not hers anyway) so I'll either catch her tinkling on the carpet or she goes outside most of the time.
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
hmm -- today is a Friskies Mixed Grill pate day -- have noticed in the past that he tends to run a hair higher on Friskies -- possibly he's reacting to the rice in it (still LC but I'd be happier if that wasn't an ingredient) -- will see what happens at +4 -- Catcat has been dreaming on his blankie, fast deep breaths that shake his whole body, then woke as I looked at him, appears he washed about same place I injected, though didn't find damp fur at the time, I usually ruffle his fur both ways after shooting, maybe I got an intradermal instead of subdermal -- I'm skipping his snack at +3 (now) -- see what happens 2 hours after last food
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
Absolutely.
You don;t even have to aim at very low (healthy cats levels) BG - per the same basics the newer patients are ok with their nadir 90 - 100. You are probably going to see an improvement with BG about 200 AlphaTrack.
Good luck! I hope you are successful - the Negative read would be awesome. Fingers crossed you'll get it soon.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
What I read was not about bacteria - but rather egg whites ability to block or delay absorption of the stomach lining, if I am not mistaken. I wish I found the post. It may or it may not be bad. I'd err to the cautious side just in case or untill matter is clarified.
I too feed it.
Wanted to let you know that I finger thru every Friskies serving (every flavor every serving)and every time I fish out a lot of what looks like bone derbies. The Mixed Grill is the lesser offender but Turkey and Giblets, Liver and Chicken are the worth - a lot of small sharp pieses of bone that can easily hurt the gums, or worth.
I started fingering thru about 2 years ago when someone's kitty being operated on for blockage - and the surgeon picked up a lot of bone derbies. The kitty was eating Friskies Pate.
ETA: If I feed Friskies Pate I add 1:1 just boiled water - makes fingering easy. (a bit gross thou)
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Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
looks like you are free woman till the PMPS!
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
re - egg - was more explaining why I cook it rather than serving raw -- and yes when I share scrambled, I select the yellow bits for Catcat, I prefer my scrambled to be a conglomerate, not a smooth homogeneity, and still fairly moist
I routinely add water to pates because of Catcat's inflexible tongue -- on a well here, accessing deep gravel bed underlying river which is primarily meltwater from glacier -- Culligan man who tested said our water is better than what they sell (reverse osmosis treated) -- will try your method of fingering since I'm not in favor of bone fragments either, and Catcat gets enough bone from the dried sardine treats ( pettreatery.com out of Vancouver BC ) -- crumble when I snap them, not sure he'd be able to eat a whole one
Panic
Member Since 2019
Honestly the egg yolk part sounds familiar though I haven't personally seen anything about egg whites, so you may be onto something!
PMPS was 645...not much of a decline since +3 but something may have contributed to those numbers accidentally - brother had a banana peel in one hand and slice of pizza in the other, went to throw the banana peel outside - threw the pizza instead - Panic apparently lunged for it and got in "a couple bites" before he could grab it.
How are Catcat and Ducia doing this evening?
PMPS was 645...not much of a decline since +3 but something may have contributed to those numbers accidentally - brother had a banana peel in one hand and slice of pizza in the other, went to throw the banana peel outside - threw the pizza instead - Panic apparently lunged for it and got in "a couple bites" before he could grab it.
How are Catcat and Ducia doing this evening?
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
PMPS = 305 (17) -- I'm at a loss, do I return to 1u dose where I was getting blues and greens? or drop back to .75u where I was getting blues?
I may need to test him at + 6 or 7 or 8 .. I've held off because I feed him a snack to get him to hold still long enough for a test; today I skipped the +5 and +6 snacks, to see if that would keep the PS value lower (obviously it didn't)
don't like it, for his longterm health, for him to be stuck in yellow territory with PS in pink --
he's grooming, he's playing with his dangling fish, he's using the litter box regularly to pee (I may be overloading him with watery pate), he comes up and drapes himself across my arm while I'm reading, he's coughing up hairballs about every 3 days but they're only just damp, he gives me the stink eye and swats at me if I don't feed him something right when he wants it, he sits on the next to the top step of the open stairway, looking out through the front windows to see what's going on, when he's up in the loft he chatters at birds in the overhanging oak tree (we have two big skylights in the roof)
wish the Vetsulin forum was more active, would really reassure me to have one of the more experienced users analyze my spreadsheet and advise me which way to move on dose
I may need to test him at + 6 or 7 or 8 .. I've held off because I feed him a snack to get him to hold still long enough for a test; today I skipped the +5 and +6 snacks, to see if that would keep the PS value lower (obviously it didn't)
don't like it, for his longterm health, for him to be stuck in yellow territory with PS in pink --
he's grooming, he's playing with his dangling fish, he's using the litter box regularly to pee (I may be overloading him with watery pate), he comes up and drapes himself across my arm while I'm reading, he's coughing up hairballs about every 3 days but they're only just damp, he gives me the stink eye and swats at me if I don't feed him something right when he wants it, he sits on the next to the top step of the open stairway, looking out through the front windows to see what's going on, when he's up in the loft he chatters at birds in the overhanging oak tree (we have two big skylights in the roof)
wish the Vetsulin forum was more active, would really reassure me to have one of the more experienced users analyze my spreadsheet and advise me which way to move on dose
Panic
Member Since 2019
Agreed, I guess really there's just more people on the longer-lasting insulins. :/ Maybe try posting and then pinging a bunch of those who have used Vetsulin?
If only the insulin lasted longer, maybe you'd get more yellows at the PS!
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
in the morning perhaps -- DH will be home with dinner for us all (except Catcat) in half an hour or so
meanwhile, after the conversation on the Think Tank, I'm going to recapitulate my spreadsheet using the World format and the metric numbers
luckily I record those (US numbers) first in a bound notebook before entering on spreadsheet, so I'll bring up the US<->Metric conversion table and fill the metric SS out (little by little)
meanwhile, after the conversation on the Think Tank, I'm going to recapitulate my spreadsheet using the World format and the metric numbers
luckily I record those (US numbers) first in a bound notebook before entering on spreadsheet, so I'll bring up the US<->Metric conversion table and fill the metric SS out (little by little)
Panic
Member Since 2019
Will your SS have both then when you adjust it?
@Tanya and Ducia Am I correct in thinking wiping a ketone stick against a pee'd-on puppy pad will not give an accurate reading? I caught kitty tinkling on it but couldn't get one under her in time. I wiped it against the pad just for kicks and the color was between Negative and Trace.
@Tanya and Ducia Am I correct in thinking wiping a ketone stick against a pee'd-on puppy pad will not give an accurate reading? I caught kitty tinkling on it but couldn't get one under her in time. I wiped it against the pad just for kicks and the color was between Negative and Trace.
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
if I were recording mmo/L on a World SS, it would convert automatically to a subsidiary SS with mg/dL (USA type) numbers, but the conversion doesn't happen the other way 
, so I'll have two spreadsheets, one with the numbers off my meter and a second one that I manually converted to metric -- I had to ditch the link to my vet's spreadsheet since program only allows two spreadsheets/links in the signature -- I'll go back later and adjust the metric numbers so the subsidiary linked SS has the right numbers or close to them, if I was off a bit with my conversions .. the site I'm using doesn't have every single number on it
meanwhile, I'm heading off to bed, +3 tonight was 219, which is equivalent to 12.1 I think ...
we'll see what the AMPS is ...
, so I'll have two spreadsheets, one with the numbers off my meter and a second one that I manually converted to metric -- I had to ditch the link to my vet's spreadsheet since program only allows two spreadsheets/links in the signature -- I'll go back later and adjust the metric numbers so the subsidiary linked SS has the right numbers or close to them, if I was off a bit with my conversions .. the site I'm using doesn't have every single number on it meanwhile, I'm heading off to bed, +3 tonight was 219, which is equivalent to 12.1 I think ...
we'll see what the AMPS is ...
AliceMeowliss (GA)
Member Since 2019
I have also noticed these bone pieces but my understanding was that a cat’s stomach ph is acidic enough to help break those down, and that they need some bone in their diets? Could this be corrected or clarified?
@CandyH and Catcat and @Panic , re: switching to another insulin,
I started Alice out on NPH (shorter acting) and switched to Lantus and it’s just so much better. ECID but the longer lasting insulins seem to make a huge difference. My Alice has put so much weight back on and keeps getting better. I think it has been easier on me as CG, too. I hope you both get a chance to try something different if it is needed! I wish I had not waited so long, honestly.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
Morning.
?anyone?Personally I would not take it as accurate.
Let's hope for more luck next time.
But it looks so good that I think it should go into a cell in the SS (whenever time it was taken) with the question mark added BC we are not sure whether the read is legit or false. Make sure you wait for thest results no longer than per instructions BC any longer gets it darker and looks (false) as Positive.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
I'll try to find that thread (I vagely remember the name).
There was a picture in that thread that the surgeon took - bone fragments (or so he concluded) washed after surgery and collected in small sandwich size plastic bag. Looked quite a lot ( being extracted from small cat's GI) and was deemed to be the culprit.
Cats' do need bones for calcium at least.
But I pick out so many very sharp pieces it's dangerous.
I don't think picking up all sharp pieces will disbalance the whole meal so badly as to cause CA deficiency.
It certainly does not worth the risk of going under knife.
(the cat food industry is one huge disappointment)
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
is Panic hitting the puppy pad often? if so, you could try placing crumpled plastic wrap on top, to catch some of the pee
alternatively, I've noticed people suggesting a litter box using lentils or aquarium gravel, since both of those are relatively impervious to pee
(lentils are pretty cheap)
you said the litter box was not her litter box - does that mean she has a different one that she uses preferentially? could you add one?
or is she like Catcat and very happy to do some (or all) of her business outside?
aside: yes to the coffee -- my hot-milk-with-coffee-flavoring is not waking me very well
alternatively, I've noticed people suggesting a litter box using lentils or aquarium gravel, since both of those are relatively impervious to pee
(lentils are pretty cheap)
you said the litter box was not her litter box - does that mean she has a different one that she uses preferentially? could you add one?
or is she like Catcat and very happy to do some (or all) of her business outside?
aside: yes to the coffee
-- my hot-milk-with-coffee-flavoring is not waking me very well
Panic
Member Since 2019
We started on NPH too so I know what you mean! Curious, your signature says Alice is 2.06kg, is this still accurate? I was just wondering, because Panic is roughly the same weight...cats need longer-lasting insulin because of their high metabolism, for smaller cats such as Alice and Panic, is a longer-lasting insulin even MORE beneficial then?
*sips
* I'll add that to the SS then, thanks for that! Really glad I decided to read the instructions before just trying it out, I would have wasted a strip completely otherwise!
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
so far haven't found any bone fragments in the Friskies I fed yesterday (mixed grill) -- maybe Purina cleaned up their act, maybe as you say, that flavor is less likely to have them -- not worried about removing them though, since I'm feeding dry sardines as a treat, better yet as that includes Omega 3 and 6 as well as very tiny bones
glad you clued me in, I have other Friskies pate flavors, will check them as I dish
glad you clued me in, I have other Friskies pate flavors, will check them as I dish
Panic
Member Since 2019
There's a couple areas in the house that she insists on peeing on instead when she's inside - no amount of enzyme cleaner will discourage her! So I lay the pads down where she's notorious for using so yes I could definitely lay some plastic wrap down and snag some that way, what a good idea! As for the litter box - we only use litter boxes when we have new kitten arrivals, and of course the indoor/outdoor cats don't mind using them when they are here. This time it's a gorgeous little white kitten who can't be out during the day because she's getting her ears burned! But anyway, the litter box is hers and it's one of those really tall ones with the cover - Panic hates the cover, so I took it off, now she hates high-stepping into it and won't use it. I could use an old low one but she primarily goes outside anyway.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
longer healing action is better for any diabetic, imho.
It is rather a ? of the insulin nature and its working mechanisms then it is about cat's size.
ProZinc, Lantus and Levemir have longer effect than any fast acting/ short lived insulin incl Vetsulin.
But...
I was thinking...
...one more thing to take into consideration about going Lantus (and to discuss with your vet tomorrow @Panic )
is something called Brittle Diabetes , as been observed in humans. I have very very generalized understanding of that phenomenon and cannot provide good explanation but I know who posted about it and will try to fetch that thread later(it's a few years old). I heard it with regards to the Lantus patient and this may not be applicable to Panic on Ventulin but BC you are going to see your vet I thought I'd mention. Not aware if the ProZ needs any fat to work well.
In short - BC Lantus is stored in the fatty tissue layer and then released into the bloodstream over time the patient has to have some fat on their body to put that Lantus in. If I am not mistaken a curve of such patient is high in general, very up and down and the patient is very thin - like Panic now. That's another why Lantus may not be the best at this time. Ask you vet if it something that affects Panic.
AliceMeowliss (GA)
Member Since 2019
This may not be the case with Panic, but after DKA, Alice was too weak to climb into the litter boxes. For a bit I used those cardboard flats with the little sides that come up an inch, that cans come on in grocery stores. I can take a pic of one of my description doesn’t make sense. They are free, biodegradable, and disposable!
We started on NPH too so I know what you mean! Curious, your signature says Alice is 2.06kg, is this still accurate? I was just wondering, because Panic is roughly the same weight...cats need longer-lasting insulin because of their high metabolism, for smaller cats such as Alice and Panic, is a longer-lasting insulin even MORE beneficial then?
*sips
I'll add that to the SS then, thanks for that! Really glad I decided to read the instructions before just trying it out, I would have wasted a strip completely otherwise!
Alice was as low as 1.89kg!!!! She was a walking skeleton. She is now about 2.9kg. She had an average weight increase of a quarter kg per week, recently. 4u Lantus 2x/day, and as much friskies LC as she wants basically—she can eat up to 3 cans in a day!!
Her healthy weight is between 7-8lbs.
Panic
Member Since 2019
You're probably right, prior to being on 4u of Vetsulin she couldn't even get on the bed and now she can - but she still isn't really comfortable jumping up anywhere. In fact I use that against her a bit (oops) by feeding the other cats their higher-carb food up on the porch railings where she can't jump right now. I do have a regular short litter box that she doesn't mind using, I just haven't put any litter in it.
Wow, that's incredible! How soon after switching to Lantus did she start gaining back the weight?
Yes it does make me wonder! I don't think I'm wrong to think that most diabetic cats (were) overweight so there would be different obstacles to overcome than an underweight cat. I just looked up Brittle Diabetes...this is interesting and frustrating to see at the same time. So Panic would definitely have to pack on some pounds before considering Lantus anyway, but @AliceMeowliss&Cassandra seemed to be in the same weight boat and it still worked out so...interesting! I think it's fair to say I'm probably not helping matters when I do fur shots (like I did this morning UGH). Her fur is just so thick and now that I've got a good amount of the mats cut out, and new hair regrowing in nice and full, it's getting very hard to locating skin under everything. Instead of alternating all the areas I try to do on her body I'm just going to trim some patches in 2-3 areas because I'm done with all these fur shots. They're not doing her any favors.
Vet appointment is 10AM tomorrow - it feels like it'll never come!
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
tons of vetty vines for Panic!
ask as many questions as you have BC doctors tend to be always with "another patient" when you call in later for an explanation. Is your feline medicine cabinet ok? It's good to have something anti-nausea/ vomit and appy stimulant like Mirtazapine handy, even if you don't need to use now, the vet might agree with that.
About Brittle Diabetes: it turns out that the main qualification is dropy-bouncy curves +being underweight. Panic is underweight but we cannot say with certainty that her curves are up and down -we do not enough nightly data. Nor can we be certain that she is not because we still do not know how low she goes at night, if at all.
here is the link:
..."As for the "brittle diabetes" (large swings of BS that prevent regulation), mostly this occurs in very skinny cats, cats with poor appetite, or cats with a disease that affects metabolism/absorbtion (IBD, hyper or hypothyroid, cancer, heart disease). High calories and gaining weight will make the diabetes less brittle. Food and calories should not be restricted in thin cats with hard-to-regulate sugars. More food might mean higher blood sugars -> more insulin, but that's ok as insulin can help to gain weight and even things out.
I am still searching for the post about fat deposits being good for Lantus; I hope I didn't dream it.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
@AliceMeowliss&Cassandra
(AliceMeowliss&Cassandra said: ↑
Could this be corrected or clarified?
I'll try to find that thread (I vagely remember the name).)
Here is that thread.
(AliceMeowliss&Cassandra said: ↑
Could this be corrected or clarified?
I'll try to find that thread (I vagely remember the name).)
Here is that thread.
Panic
Member Since 2019
I will let you guys know what happens tomorrow! I am so happy I have all these spreadsheet numbers to show her! I am planning on sticking to my guns about Prozinc.
Oh! I didn't know anything about an anti-nausea and appetite stimulate! What all should I consider having on-hand? Mirtazapine isn't a steroid is it?
Thank you for the link, I read through it! What I'll need to do is have a good time (no fur-shots) where I can pull an all-nighter and watch her throughout the night to see what her numbers are, I'm sure that will help us fill in those gaps and see if this might be something to consider.
I am so happy I have all these spreadsheet numbers to show her! I am planning on sticking to my guns about Prozinc.Oh! I didn't know anything about an anti-nausea and appetite stimulate! What all should I consider having on-hand? Mirtazapine isn't a steroid is it?
Thank you for the link, I read through it! What I'll need to do is have a good time (no fur-shots) where I can pull an all-nighter and watch her throughout the night to see what her numbers are, I'm sure that will help us fill in those gaps and see if this might be something to consider.
AliceMeowliss (GA)
Member Since 2019
Okay brittle diabetes descriptions like that sound a LOT like Alice’s numbers and how she was doing and what I have done that has helped her.... all of it. I will be doing further research today! She has a tumor on her belly and we always suspected there has to be some underlying thing going on, too.
And @Panic , for Alice, take a look at her SS. There is a tab for Lantus, I was test-crazy so there’s a lot of data. The start of it is when she started the Lantus.
Events:
Previously had been trying to regulate on NPH 2x/day on LC and still failing..... wasn’t testing enough.... infection, nausea, anorexia, vomiting....
DKA and hospitalization 4/5-4/8... home... switch to NPH three times a day 3.5u at a time, after all the hospital IV hydration and R and everything else, achieve pretty good numbers (see Novolin N tab on SS), switch to Lantus after a few days. She was weak. She couldn’t crouch to pee so she shot straight out a lot. Easy to get urine samples, but she was a mess. I barely slept and I was a wreck on here and at home for about 5 weeks. But she got all the LC she wanted basically, and I think she even benefitted from the days when her sugar got a little low and I propped her with more HC, because she seemed to have more energy the days after...
So I guess what really happened is I got more aggressive with my approach because she had been deteriorating for months before my eyes despite my best efforts with what I knew and had at the time... I came across mention of DCIN on here and got approval so I could get her on Lantus and now she is up for getting her probable mammary tumor removed on the 12th.
I don’t know if any of that helps you in regards to Panic, or not. The one big thing to me is just that a short-acting insulin only 2x/day just didn’t get us where we needed to be, and more and/or different insulin was the answer.
AliceMeowliss (GA)
Member Since 2019
Thanks for digging that up! Interesting. I would have liked to see what was in that bag! I wonder if friskies ever responded.....
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
something for nausea like Cerenia pills (mine worked just fine 6 mo after expiration). Used when being nauseated symptoms are present like food sniffing/lip licking and walking away from foods, very common. Or an Rx for human Odnasterton pills.
Mirtazapine pills, non steroid appy stimulant, none cumulative. Common vet solution.
It's good to have Rx for a bag of Lactated Ringer's Solution with lines needles which is given SQ in case of dehydration, kidney problems, pancreatitis, etc. Dehydration can lead to all kind of problems.
Vets readiness to write the script vary per vet.
Something for pain in case Panic has any.
These are very common meds for FD, many on here keep at just in case the problem arises at night or on Holyiday (as it often does).
Trying to think about anything else....
PS. About the SS. Some vets are so much against it - do not be surprised if you get chastised for being vigilant mom and keeping the SS at all... (just say yes, doctor, and get the scripts. ) Or is yours ok?
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
no troubles at all: I am reminded about it every time I pop up Friskies can...
lotsa sharpy edges. (but since you can hardly find better price I keep buying & fingering thru every serving. )
I doubt Friskies ever admit to doing c**py job.
AliceMeowliss (GA)
Member Since 2019
Here’s where I am potentially obnoxious for correcting spelling?? (Some people don’t like it but I just notice this stuff!!) But for accuracy/clarity when visiting vet, it’s ondansetron or brand name in US is Zofran. I, personally, love this medicine for nausea, but have not used with Alice. She has received Cerenia before.
Also personally have taken mirtazapine for non-appetite stimulant purposes, but it REALLY works for making one eat like a zombie. On me. (Every Cassandra is Different)
@Tanya and Ducia you're full of helpful things. I honestly don’t know why it didn’t occur to me to ask for just an rx for subq fluids, even though I don’t need them right now. That’s brilliant and so simple.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
thank you for correcting that!!!
i rely a lot on peer reviewing.
My PC's typing ability decreases by day (must be a "senior moment" as the PC is 10 years old) hence the typos.
My personal spelling always sucked.
AliceMeowliss (GA)
Member Since 2019
Okay besides my weird magical spelling ability, I remember this drug name because it sounds like a dancing robot to me.thank you for correcting that!!!
i rely a lot on peer reviewing.
My PC's typing ability decreases by day (must be a "senior moment" as the PC is 10 years old) hence the typos.
My personal spelling always sucked.
I also figured it could have been autocorrect if you were on one of those devices. You never know these days.
I’m impressed at the longevity of your PC though.
Panic
Member Since 2019
My vet was very open-minded when I brought FF to a curve for the first time - first she told the vet tech to tell me no, that she wouldn't get regulated on FF, then after I sent her catinfo.org chart she changed her tune and went out of her way to check with some other veterinarians who backed me up. So I'm optimistic at least! A vet can hardly be angry for a caregiver home-testing but clearly those type of vets exist.
I will ask my vet tomorrow about whether she thinks she would benefit from having any of those on-hand since it looks like they're all prescription.
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
tells me you are a younger person: they used to make things that worked for ages. My parents owned and used US made toaster from late 1960s thru late 1990s and the vacuum cleaner that lasted 20+ years, and such longevity was to be legibly expected. (but TBH it's not PC as the hardware at fault here; Bill Gates decided that Vista PC no longer need to be supported by MS and all kind of application have fallen off and that what makes the typing to freeze and reinsert itself not were I was typing)
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
do stress out that you are planning on storing it at home not to use liberally - simply to cover your back in case not eating event comes at the time the vet is closed and to spare you nightly ER trips which $$$. Ask about dosage - it is always weight contingent and Panic's being so thin now she might need smaller doses than I ever used (1/4 16 mg Cerenia/24 h).
The fluids is somewhat advanced therapy and the vet may turn very cautious but many on the L&L Forum were actually trained by their vets to do it properly and carried since at home with volume and frequency of SQF sessions TBD by the vet via phone. (spare the office visit $$$ by training the CG).
Tanya and Ducia
Member Since 2017
CandyH & Catcat
Member Since 2019
not surprised --
My parents owned and used US made toaster from late 1960s thru late 1990s and the vacuum cleaner that lasted 20+ years, and such longevity was to be legibly expected. (but TBH it's not PC as the hardware at fault here; Bill Gates decided that Vista PC no longer need to be supported by MS and all kind of application have fallen off and that what makes the typing to freeze and reinsert itself not were I was typing)
my "new" laptop delivered to original owner in 2010 -- it's not serial #1 -- happily runs Win7 -- has a quirk or two due to upgraded antivirus
tower that the cousins occasionally use -- first built (by college computer lab) 1984 -- upgraded in 2004 -- runs WinXP -- not used much because it's slow to load Farm
Town -- fine for less intense graphic applications
still using waffle iron my mom bought in 1939
vacuum cleaner was wedding present in 1968, works fine
cellphone -- can't even find it on Google any more --G200 flip phone, probably about 2002
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