not wanting to eat at time of injection

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Lillie

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I posted on the main health forum but thought it might be better to post here too since Leo is on Prozinc.
Last night Leo did not want to eat much at all around the time of his injection due at 7:00PM. He is on 1 1/2u twice day. He did eat a small amount but didn't look like he was going to eat much more and it was getting 30 minutes past his shoot schedule so I reduced his dose in half and gave it to him. Wasn't able to test as he was now running and hiding from me because he doesn't like me following him around with the food bowl. (yes out of frustration I do that). 30 minutes later he eats more but I had already given him half a dose so I didn't shoot any more. What on earth do you do if the cat just won't eat on schedule when insulin is due??
 
Hmmm...does he have food available all the time? Is he eating just a little while before the shot is due perhaps? Will he eat anything...like say can you sprinkle some crushed up treats or fortiflora or something on it and get him to eat? If you can get him to eat even just a few tablespoons, you should be okay, especially if you know he'll eat more later. You just want him to have some food on board....
 
He does have mild IBD and gets Pepcid twice a day, or once a day in the evening. He's on a limited ingredient duck single protein wet food. It may be higher than I want in carbs but for now his IBD has been doing very well with no vomiting and no diarrhea. He has been nervous since he came home from the 5 days at the vets and one return visit. He's always eaten a little at a time so it makes it really hard to get enough food in him at one time for the injection. Before the effect of his insulin kicked in he was eating ALL the time so it was so much easier to feed him before the injection. Now that he's not so hungry all the time and not drinking gallons of water he has resumed his previous eating habits.. You may be on to something though. It is possible his IBD is making him a little nauseous at times. Skipping injections is not going to help his glucose at all, so it's getting a little nerve wracking. Thanks for your input. Any other thoughts and ideas are welcome.
 
I do not know how it would effect his IBD but maybe try withholding food for 4 hours before preshot time? Hopefully, one of the members with IBD kitty will chime in too :)
 
He probably does have food available most of the time because he eats some, leaves it for a while, then eats the rest, etc. I do use some of the forti flora sprinkled over top and somethings some crushed Pure Bites duck too. He's such a stinker though- he eats the top off where the sprinkles are and leaves the rest! It's hard to tell exactly how much he eats at one time because he licks his food and it's pushed to the side so it's hard to tell what went into him and what was just pushed up against the bowl. He will usually finish it all at a later time. So I'm guessing that even if he eats a small amount beforehand it may be ok to give him his injection? Maybe I should regulate his feedings more so that he will be hungry enough to eat before injection time?
 
Lillie said:
He probably does have food available most of the time because he eats some, leaves it for a while, then eats the rest, etc. I do use some of the forti flora sprinkled over top and somethings some crushed Pure Bites duck too. He's such a stinker though- he eats the top off where the sprinkles are and leaves the rest! It's hard to tell exactly how much he eats at one time because he licks his food and it's pushed to the side so it's hard to tell what went into him and what was just pushed up against the bowl. He will usually finish it all at a later time. So I'm guessing that even if he eats a small amount beforehand it may be ok to give him his injection? Maybe I should regulate his feedings more so that he will be hungry enough to eat before injection time?
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He does need some food on board before his shot but not necessarily a full meal. ProZinc isn't as hard and fast in onset as Vetsulin, for example.
 
I'm going to try picking up any food left a few hours before shoot time and maybe he will want to eat enough when I need him to. Gosh, cats are so hard sometimes especially when the IBD is involved and we all know how quirky their little minds work sometimes. If he even guesses the sound of something seems like the cat carrier - zoom - he's gone to the middle of underneath the bed where he KNOWS I can't reach him.
 
You should definitely be picking up all food 2 hours before pre-test time so the reading is not food influenced. I just suggested a little longer to try and see if he would be a little hungrier before shot time if 2 hours was not working :).
 
I've not yet been able to test him on a regular schedule. I've succeeded once so far and am still trying to get it right but he is not yet cooperating. I will keep trying.
 
Hi Lillie -Murphy also has IBD and doesn't eat much at any one time, so I do feel your pain and understand your angst. I agree with picking up the food for a few hours before meal/test time. Also, prozinc doesn't start working right away so you do have usually a few hours to get some food into him. Putting Murphy on daily cerenia has really helped his IBD and I don't have nearly the issues with not wanting to eat anymore. What I have found is when it is meal time and he shows no interest in food or eating, I give him a pill for nausea (ondansteron) and if after a while he still isn't eating, I give him a appetite stimulant (cyproheptadine)
 
Some, yes. He does not like his face or ears touched at all. I've been trying to desensitize this area but sometimes he just get irritated as heck with me. I've been trying.
 
So far Leo is just on pepcid twice a day but his specialist said if other symptoms start up then she will probably recommend something like cerenia and or ondansteron. She also mentioned budesonide if needed. So far he seems ok on the pepcid and novel protein diet but there is the possibility that his lower appetite sometimes is caused by nausea. I think I will run those meds by his specialist as it would be good to have something at hand in case it's needed. This morning though I was not able to test him and he was so lethargic I ran him over to the vets. He was at 68, 6 hours after the morning injection!!! That may be why his appetite was not so good. No shot tonight and I'll try my darndest to get a reading. He ate some food when he came home and I gave him some of his higher carb dry food (which I saved but don't feed him any more) along with his regular stuff. I swear this is going to give me a nervous breakdown.
 
Carol- What do you do about his injections if Murphy just doesn't eat at all- or are you always able to get him to eat by adding a med?
 
Lillie - was that 68 reading with a pet or a human meter? I think with a reading like that, I'd be leary of the dose you are giving if you cannot test - @Rachel @Kris & Teasel @Sharon14- what do you think?
regarding Murphy not eating, luckily by now, I have lots of testing data and have gotten a feel for him, so I can make an educated guess as to whether to give him his whole dose of insulin, a reduced dose, or none - and a big part of that would be what his readings are (if he is running high, I am more likely to give him a full dose - if he is lower, not so much) I'm curious what others think about dosing if you cannot test, given the reading of 68 at +6.
 
It was 68 at the vet's office? I'd be leery of shooting with that too since vet numbers are often higher due to stress. Any way of getting a test first?
 
I could not get a test from him today and he was so lethargic I took him to the vet. They got a reading of 68 at +6 after his 1.5 PZ. She told me no injection tonight. He ate when I brought him home a couple times and I included a little of his previous high carb dry food-just a little. I just tested him which is 3.5 hours past his last test which would be +9.5 and IF I did it right it is at 78 now. Should it be going up faster than that?
The meter is an alpha trak pet meter-same as the vets.
 
Lillie said:
So far Leo is just on pepcid twice a day but his specialist said if other symptoms start up then she will probably recommend something like cerenia and or ondansteron. She also mentioned budesonide if needed. So far he seems ok on the pepcid and novel protein diet but there is the possibility that his lower appetite sometimes is caused by nausea. I think I will run those meds by his specialist as it would be good to have something at hand in case it's needed. This morning though I was not able to test him and he was so lethargic I ran him over to the vets. He was at 68, 6 hours after the morning injection!!! That may be why his appetite was not so good. No shot tonight and I'll try my darndest to get a reading. He ate some food when he came home and I gave him some of his higher carb dry food (which I saved but don't feed him any more) along with his regular stuff. I swear this is going to give me a nervous breakdown.
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Don't be discouraged Lillie! It's totally normal to feel overwhelmed and mine was not a big eater on schedule either and I was very afraid he would go low (its only happened 1x that I am aware of) and I am not home as much as I want to be....

Now I have an automatic feeder (it has 5 spots in it) I have it timed to give food about 4hours after his breakfast (so he does not dip too low), then 2.5 hours later a little snack (just in case his +6 is low), and then 3hours before supper time (but is taken away 1hour later so spot 5 is empty). The same schedule for night time feeding. By breakfast and dinner he is coming to wake me/annoy me for food! It's a learning process for the both of you!

My Mr. Pou doesn't eat ALL the meals but at least he knows food will become available even if I am not home. He was a grazer and always KEPT some until I came home, he seldom finished his food. So as long as he eats, now, I shoot. But its not a feeling I felt comfortable with in the beginning. The more you test and the more you know his cycles, the more comfort you will have...
 
Thank you for the 'pep' talk. I needed it after his low number today. Scary, but he seems to be doing better now and I am testing tonight to keep an eye on him. He's eating like a little pig now- great, just not when you need him to!
 
Lillie said:
I could not get a test from him today and he was so lethargic I took him to the vet. They got a reading of 68 at +6 after his 1.5 PZ. She told me no injection tonight. He ate when I brought him home a couple times and I included a little of his previous high carb dry food-just a little. I just tested him which is 3.5 hours past his last test which would be +9.5 and IF I did it right it is at 78 now. Should it be going up faster than that?
The meter is an alpha trak pet meter-same as the vets.
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78 is still low and yes he should be going up - since he's eating like a pig that's a great sign - don't be surprised if he skyrockets either, that's a normal response to a LOW (its what people here call bouncing). And sometimes if there is too little blood it will read low, if you doubt it, you can always try again later.

Lillie said:
Thank you for the 'pep' talk. I needed it after his low number today. Scary, but he seems to be doing better now and I am testing tonight to keep an eye on him. He's eating like a little pig now- great, just not when you need him to!
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Great cause the more you do it, the more he will get used to it. Mine only wants me to test his left ear (my right) don't ask me why but he's made this decision and I have to abide by it.
 
How soon should I test again? There's plenty of blood to test- he's on a blood thinner. If I test tomorrow morning what number would be ok to shoot? Now I'm getting worried he's not going up fast enough.
 
If he had no insulin tonight he should be fine. Prozinc is an in and out insulin so it doesn't linger. Since he doesn't have any tonight, the lower numbers are fine...good even!

I wouldn't shoot below 200 tomorrow. Can you monitor at all tomorrow? Roughly what time will you be wanting to shoot (and what time zone are you in?) ?
 
Oh, Lillie! Thank goodness you are testing him! First of all, 78 is a safe number. It's a very healthy number. And as long as you aren't giving him any more insulin, he should be fine this evening. Just keep letting him eat healthy food when he's hungry, and make sure he has access to fresh water to help him regain his energy

Did the vet give you any directions for tomorrow? If the vet said to resume his dose tomorrow, I would recommend that you test first since he's had such low numbers, and then post here for some ideas of a good dose before you inject him. And I agree with Rachel that I wouldn't shoot if he's below 200. If you let us know your time zone and shot time, we can try to keep an eye out for your post.
 
I'm in California and hopefully I'll be testing in the morning at about 6:00AM my time. It's hard in the morning because he is always hungry in the middle of the night and wakes me up to have a snack. He doesn't do well with going all night with no food. So I guess if I give him a snack at 4:00AM and nothing else it will be ok to test at 6:00. I just listened to myself and what I said- who would have thought I would be getting awake at 4:00AM to give my cat a snack because he has IBD and can't go too many hours without food. That's just crazy. I need to get a timed pet feeder!!
 
Okay that's around 8 my time. I should be on then (usually arrive at work then so as Long as traffic isn't nuts). I'll check in then to see how you are if you want to post your preshot for advice! :)
 
I'll be around at that time as well. And around here, getting up in the middle of the night to care for a sick kitty is totally normal. :)
 
Thank you all so so much! The vet just said not to shoot tonight but to lower the dose tomorrow morning to 1u. I don't feel good about blindly giving the insulin tomorrow morning after this low today though so I'm going to do my best to get a good reading tomorrow morning. He's feisty in the morning before he eats. Wish me luck.
 
This was a MAJOR struggle this morning with Leo. Kept getting an error on meter and finally I took the test strip out put a new one in and transferred the blood from the old one to the new one that was in the meter. Reading came out to only 85. Which side of the strip is the blood supposed to go on? The top facing side with the butterfly or the underneath side of the strip? Anyway 85 looks awfully low. I don't usually feed Leo until 7:00AM. I'm not sure I can get another reading right now to check if accurate as he is really upset right now and wants to eat. I'm guessing no shoot this morning?
 
I would definitely say no shot with an 85. Which meter are you using? Regardless, the meter wouldn't have given you any number if you didn't have the blood in the right place, so since you got an 85, you must have figured it out!

At least on my meter, if a strip gives an error, you have to change the strip and try again. Once it has an error, it's wrecked.

And good job getting a test this morning! I'm sorry it was a struggle, but we're all proud of you for getting it worked out. It really does get easier. And it's so so good that you tested before giving him an injection because 85 is a safe, healthy number that does not require insulin, and giving him a shot at that number would have been dangerous for him.
 
I'm using the alpha trak pet monitor. His poor little ear from last night looks terrible. I didn't do a very good job and since he's on a blood thinner he was bleeding more than normal. I think he hates me! Is it ok to feed him now? Should I try and test again tonight?
 
It's fine to feed him now. And yes, definitely test again before you shoot since he's showing you these low numbers.

After you get the blood, take a cotton square or some tissue and apply pressure to his ear - since he's on blood thinners he's going to bruise, but you may be able to minimize it at least a little.
 
I may have to use two test strips from now on. If I poke and get blood on one strip I can have a new one in the meter ready to go and transfer the blood from one to another. It feels like I need more than two hands to do it all at once.
 
alphatrak-glucose-meter.jpg
Just found this picture online. It shows how to put the test strip into the glucometer, and that little dropper is where the blood would go.

If you have any drinking straws, I used to cut them into pieces a few inches long, and then cut them lengthwise in half to make a little trough. Then I would catch the blood in that, stop the bleeding, and then I could do the test. Some people also just scoop the blood onto their finger nail and do it that way.
 
Does this mean I may not have gotten a true reading since the blood was on the bottom and not just the side? There was quite a bit of blood from him so I imagine the whole lower half of the strip was covered.
 
I don't have an alphtrak, but on the meter I use, it just won't give me a number if the blood isn't in the right spot, so I'm guessing that some blood got into the side since you had a reading. You could do another test if you want to, but I think it's okay to just skip this morning (especially if he just ate), and try again this evening. There's a big learning curve to all of this, and it's okay to just take it one step at a time.
 
Thank you! Getting the blood on my fingernail and testing from there is a good idea. That way I won't go through two strips at once.
 
Another question! He has been getting 1.5u prozinc so if I get a good reading tonight would I resume his regular 1.5u or should I decrease it some. I'm getting a feeling his units might be too high a dose.
 
If it's over 200 tonight, then yes, you could shoot, but I would suggest going with a lower dose like the vet suggested - not more than 1u, and I would also recommend that if you do shoot, you try to get a mid-cycle test to make sure he's staying in safe numbers.
 
Thank all of you so very much! Poor Leo would have been in trouble if I had just given him his injection this morning without testing. What do I do if he remains under 200? Just keep testing and watch for when he does go over 200?
 
@Lillie you will get the hang of this and so will he. I cannot tell you the times I still ask myself hmmmm should I test again? It your mother instincts mixed with anxiety of not knowing what you're doing. I know how it feels, you want to understand everything NOW and know what to do when. I've been doing this for about 3 months and learned that this forum is the best thing EVER, the people here are a real community/family and someone is always a few clicks away from helping you.

With that said, don't worry about tonight UNTIL tonight! People are here at all hours, and if they know in advance when to be here to help you, they are often if not always waiting for your message. Also when you think/plan stuff is going to go one way, you may have a brand new learning experience, and often the disappointment of things not going the way you planned can be overwhelming.

The important lessons of this morning, YOU DID AWESOME!!! You got a test done, you learned how the strips work and you will build a habit of doing the sequence in a specific order that will be a routine for both of you, practice makes "better"
Also you learned not to shoot at this number, and the valuable lesson that not testing and giving him insulin would be very bad!

Also in case we have not told you yet 85 IS A GREAT NUMBER!!! I forget the magic number but anything below 2** (something in the 200's) is indicative of the pancreas (the natural insulin organ in your cat) being at a level it can heal itself, it heals slowly so don't get too excited just now!!!

Are you home today or away?
 
It's fine to ask as many questions as you have. There is a lot to learn here, and the more you know, the better you can take care of your kitty. Jamie is right, most of the time you can find someone here, but since you're on the west coast, it can be a bit quiet in the evening. I'm on the west coast as well though, so we can watch out for each other!

Here is the usual procedure from the prozinc guidelines that we use here:

When in doubt, ask the Forum or your vet for advice BEFORE dosing your cat.
  • The proper sequence for dosing insulin is: Test/Feed/Shoot. In the beginning, if your cat’s BG is not up to at least 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}, if your schedule allows, you can stall (without feeding) for 20+minutes, then retest the BG. You are looking for a number that is rising, not falling and up to 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}. If you stall once, but can’t do another round of stalling and your cat hasn’t reached a BG of 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}, you’ll need to skip the dose and wait until the next cycle. NOTE: Because pet-specific meters (such as the AlphaTrak2) often read higher than human meters, you may want to adjust the NO-SHOOT number to 225 mg/dL {12.5 mmol/L} or even 250 mg/dL {14 mmol/L} This gives you an added margin of safety when using an AlphaTrak2 or other pet-specific meter.
  • IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not feed your cat within the two-hour window right before the scheduled dose time; doing this can raise your cat’s blood significantly, giving you a higher BG number based on food. This could result in your giving insulin when you should not, or giving more insulin than you should.
And here is the link to the whole thing: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...prozinc-pzi-insulin-for-diabetic-cats.164995/
 
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