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Olive & Paula

Olive & Paula

Member Since 2015
Hi, I just stumbled across this site. I'm Smokey's parent. I have looked around here and do not find where I enter his information. He is almost 18 now. I "catnapped" him from my parents 16 months ago. His whole life has been spent with various family members. Diagnosed in 2012 with diabetes but out of control which caused me to take him in. So where do I enter his life. It has totally changed since I've had him. It has taken this long to get him healthy again but I think he is starting to be unstable again. Would appreciate any help.
 
You can just post his information in your post, or you can add it to your signature. To do that, go to top right, click on your name and click on signature. That will add Smokey's information to any post you make.
 
Welcome! Go up to the top of the page and pick your name. It'll bring up a list of possibilities. Choose Signature. Print what you want in the box - space is limited. Necessary is diagnosis date, insulin type, dosage, diet and whether you are home testing. Then choose Submit. That info will come up each time you post. M

For us, we'd like to hear his backstory which you can do on this thread. Then the problems you are having.
 
Smokey started out with my cousins while he was in end stage cancer. When he died my Aunt took him, but because of elimination issues she took him back to where they got him. Then my other cousin took him but her mother doesn't like cats and he still had litter box issues. In 2000, my mother was told if she wanted him she had to get him now or he was being put out. So my mother and I drove 5 hrs to MA in a blizzard to get him. Took us 7 hrs to get home. For the most part he was a really good cat but still litter box issues. Mind you he is a large cat. My mother told me in 2012 he was diabetic. In 2009 my husband and moved 3 hrs away from my parents. May 2014 my mother became ill. 4 days later I went down. Not prepared for what I found. Smokey who's top weight was 23-25 lbs was one big matted fur ball right down to the skin. He lost half his weight, short of 12 lbs. He was starving. My father didn't know Smokey was diabetic. So no insulin at least for the 4 days probably longer. My mother also had dementia so who knows how long he was without. The insulin was expired. Only found one syringe was it the only that was used??? One part of carpet was soaked with urine. Cat and/or mother???? Litter box probably not washed and clean for who knows how long. I couldn't even soak it. House infested with flies. Of course it was Saturday night and unable to reach his vet. Immediately went to store got all new litter box supplies. Ripped out the carpeting. His vet squeezed me in on Monday but was only concerned his vaccinations were not up to date. No help from them. I explained I was out of state and going back home that day with Smokey. At least give me insulin. Nope. Called my vet from the road, explained the situation. He said he would see me when I got there and he would wait. When I got there he rallied the office and they had his records, did a work up and they shaved him down and got started on insulin again. They didn't charge me a penny. Had weekly visits for a month. July 2014 my father decided he couldn't handle Smokey and my mother so he became mine. Smokey whole life changed in a few hours. New home, humans, insulin, litter, food, water and other cats. His litter box issues have been corrected. He needed a larger box and more than one. Once he uses it he won't use again til scooped (which is hard when I'm working). And they are much larger. His vomiting stopped once he was on a strict feeding schedule. Started at every 2 hrs around the clock and worked our way to every 6 hrs.

The last 2 months he's been extremely hungry and drinking so much water. His BS was 596. Went to vet. Adjusted his insulin. Worked for a very short time. He was getting 5U x2. They don't want to go higher. I can't afford the prozinc which they won't carry because of cost. So we are trying boiled chicken in place of all dry food. His canned food is proplan pate. Which the company told me the two flavors I use are less than 1% carbs . He gets .75oz of canned 2x day and 1/2 oz boiled chicken 2x day. After a few days, he was drinking less and didn't seem so hungry. His BS was steady between 225 -250 so insulin was decreased to 4.5 U. Which vet said was fine. Then Smokey started crying a lot and actually pushing his dishes around. His BS was now under 200. So insulin lowered to 3U. But then he started drinking a lot again, lethargic BS 425. Insulin increased again. The vet thinks Smokey is trying to convert into remission. But the bouncing around I feel is putting a lot of stress on him. I hate sticking his ear everyday. I can only get the same ear to bleed for me. Any suggestions??? Sorry for long post. Ps. His next visit is on the 1st. Vet uses same meter and our results match exactly.
 
Wow! You and Smokey have had a real journey. Bless you for taking him on and normalizing his life.

A couple things. Here is a food chart compiled by a vet (much more accurate than the way the manufacturer figures it)

http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf. It is alphabetical so ProPlan is quite a way down the list. It looks like a couple flavors are in good carb ranges (we like to stay under 8%) But most are pretty high carb.

Vetsulin can be hard to regulate with. It tends to be harsh and has an early onset. To use it effectively, you have to get enough data to see exactly how it works with Smokey. When does he start to drop? (Often early in the cycle 3-5 hours after the shot). How soon does he start up? (Often with Vetsulin, they start back up early - maybe 5/7 hours after the shot). When does the insulin wear off? (Often Vetsulin does not last 12 hours like ProZinc, Lantus and Levwmir)

Having said that, sometimes it is milder; sometimes it lasts longer. If you can figure out how it works in Smokey, you may be able to use that info to get him into better ranges.

It is fantastic you are testing at home. It is so important to stay on top of the numbers with Vetsulin. Do you always give Smokey a favorite treat after the poke? That I s the secret to this thing. Also, Neosporin with pain relief can make the process easier on both of you early on. Just a tiny smear.
 
You and Smokey have been through a lot! It sounds like you're on the right track, changing his food to low carb and home testing. Some find it easier to get blood if you warm the ear first. Many use a sock with rice, warmed in the microwave. Just make sure not to get it too hot. And as Sue mentioned, low carb treats after testing helps a lot too. My cat now comes as soon as I sit in our 'testing chair' and shake the strips container. It's important to check Smokeys BS before each injection and try to get some mid cycle tests too, to determine how low he goes between. I don't know much about Vetsulin, but if you want to try ProZinc, you can get it at Valley Vet Supply for $95/vial which lasts awhile depending on how much you use.
 
Welcome Woodsywife and Smokey. You are a Saint to take on Smokey and restore his health. You are in good hands here with all the experienced people with diabetic cats. What is your name, by the way? See you around the forum.
 
Oh thank you for the food chart. The two flavors I use isn't on it. But I do see another brand I will try. One of my cats will only eat Purina one beef canned. Since its low I will try the other 2 flavors. None of my 3 cats can have shredded, flaked or gravy. They all throw it up.

Prozinc costed $200/month. He use to be on it. But my vet said he won't offer it to customers. I will look into the site that's mentioned. I imagine I will need a script. Vetsulin is $52/month. So a little more I could do. And maybe the dose can get even lower.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Welcome Woodsywife and Smokey. You are a Saint to take on Smokey and restore his health. You are in good hands here with all the experienced people with diabetic cats. What is your name, by the way? See you around the forum.
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I'm Paula. Didn't know if real name should be used or not.
 
Hi Paula! I'm Bobbie. Again, I take my hat off to you for all that you are doing for Smokey. The best of luck to him and I will be following his progress. :bighug:
 
Hi Paula, Wow $200/month!? A vial of ProZinc should last several months depending on how many units/day you give. My cat is on a high dose and the vial lasts quite awhile. Bobbie is right, you are a saint how you've helped Smokey. He is a lucky guy! I read your post in the caregivers burnout thread. On top of everything else you have an injured back! I don't know if it'll help, but when I hurt my back a few years ago and couldn't bend or get down to feed and clean boxes, I moved everything up high. I even had the litter box on the dinning room table-not for everyone I know-but it helped me. Good luck with Smokey, and please keep us posted
 
Sharon, Smokey doesn't climb up on any furniture. I'm lucky there. We even tried a ramp and steps (which he can't do at all anymore). And he tends to not go in box far enough so some always ends up on floor. Puppy pads are all around the box for that. A vial of insulin at 4U - 5U twice a day lasts me 6-7 weeks. The cost is still a lot since my hours were cut, paychecks bouncing, husband is getting ready to retire. Of course I rather see Smokey less insulin dependent but don't like this fluctuations. It can't be good for the other body systems. I guess the retired nurse in me is on overdrive.
 
Sharon14 said:
You and Smokey have been through a lot! It sounds like you're on the right track, changing his food to low carb and home testing. Some find it easier to get blood if you warm the ear first. Many use a sock with rice, warmed in the microwave. Just make sure not to get it too hot. And as Sue mentioned, low carb treats after testing helps a lot too. My cat now comes as soon as I sit in our 'testing chair' and shake the strips container. It's important to check Smokeys BS before each injection and try to get some mid cycle tests too, to determine how low he goes between. I don't know much about Vetsulin, but if you want to try ProZinc, you can get it at Valley Vet Supply for $95/vial which lasts awhile depending on how much you use.
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He is really good at injection time. He lays right down when I put my hand on his back. He is getting better with the ear sticks as well as me with them. But no dry kibble at all for any reason. When I can get him more regulated then he can have 1 after an ear stick but only then. My vet doesn't mind if his bg is in the 250 range (I don't necessarily agree) that way they said you don't have to worry about hypo if I need to be away or late with a feeding.
 
By the way. Smokey is my avatar. The pic was taken in May. My father wanted a pic for my mother when she passed away. He didn't want her to be alone on her journey. She missed him so. My father always asks "how's my cat?. Smokey buddied up to my kitten immediately. Smokey was always an only pet. He plays and grooms the kitten and kitten is relentless with him and yet he doesn't seem to mind.
 
Smokey is a beautiful cat! It's good he's made friends with your kitten. Wish I knew more to help you. I'm new here and having problems regulating my cat, Colin, too. Maybe if you post your thread in the Vetsulin forum, someone there that knows more on how it works can give you better advice.
 
Well here what happened. Smokey had his regular feeding and 4.5U @ 7 pm. He has been behind the chair since. At 11 pm he didn't come for the last feeding of the day. Even popping the can, or the other cats tags clicking on the bowls didn't bring him out. Had my husband get him out so I could check him. BS 32. Once he was out he ate the canned food left by other cat. And my husband gave him some chicken and 3 dry kibbles he ate with gusto. I will watch him for a few more hours since I'm a late owl and have off tomorrow. I will check him again in the morning. I thank all of you, as I did not monitor regularly only when he wasn't himself. And reading here has alerted me. And I will start this spreadsheet once I figure it out. I just have to start up my pc. I normally use my kindle fire and it won't let me open the ss.
 
Did you get a test? Is he acting strange? Hiding ? Just realized he is 32 on AlphaTrak. If he hasn't moved up, you need to take him to the ER
 
BS is 35 now. Gave him a few more kibbles. He is not hiding now. He is out sitting in front of me wide awake. I only have chocolate ice cream which cats can't have. Maple syrup?
 
Maple syrup is good. Take a teaspoonful and rub it on his gums. I really think you should go to the ER. We consider 70 and below on the AlphaTrak to be hypo. It's good that he has no symptoms, but some cats are asymptomatic.
 
He likes maple syrup. Licked it right off the spoon. He is hungry and he finally ate his normal feeding just now. This is what been bothering me. These drastic changes in his readings. If I start a curve tomorrow how often should I do a reading? I'll do one at 7am but then how often after that?
 
First you need to get his numbers up tonight. Did you get a test? You can't relax until you get 3 tests above 70. The honey will only last awhile. He can still drop.

I am really worried that he will continue to drop or stay in these low ranges for too long. Neither scenario is safe.
 
Tomorrow he is likely to be high after the low and the high carb. (When they drop below what their body senses as a safe level, it releases extra glucose which makes the number bounce up.

Regardless, you need to reduce the dose tomorrow - maybe down to 3.5 units. You don't want a dose that will take him down this low.

Then get a test at +2/4/6/8/10. That should give you a good picture of when he drops, how much, for how long and when the insulin starts up and is gone.

BUT for now, retest. If he hasn't risen a lot, can you take him to the ER?
 
I can't stay on the forum. I hope either he has jumped up to the 70s and stays there or you have taken him to the ER. So glad you caught that low number. He does seem seriously overdosed.
 
Paula, I can do up the spreadsheet for you and send it to you. If you can access Google Sheets on your kindle, once it is created, you may be able to use it that way.
 
All I will need is your email address, which you can send to me in a private messages. To start a conversation, click on my profile picture to the left, then select start a conversation.
 
So glad to see that he went up, Paula! And so wonderful you were testing and caught it.

He may be extra sensitive to insulin for awhile. Sometimes that happens if they drop really low. I'd be very careful with the dose and monitor carefully. Your curve today will help you see how the Vetsulin is working - when he drops is very valuable info for you to have.

Just for reference - we consider a cat regulated if they are in the lower 200s at pre shot and in double digits at nadir, but above 50 - which is approaching hypo territory. These numbers are based on human meters, which most of us use. (AlphaTrak meters are expensive and the strips are prohibitively expensive for most people). For Alpha Trak, while we have no exact correlations, you can add 30 points to those numbers to get a general reference point.
 
Sharon14 said:
Paula, how is Smokey this AM? Did you get a BS test before you fed and gave him his shot?
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Sharon, at 7am his BS was 431. And I only gave him 3.5U Vetsulin and his regular food at 9am his BS was 380. Will do another at 11am. And will do every 2 hrs until his 7pm shot.

He is back to himself. Underfoot and begging for food. Lol.
 
I would have not caught it last night if it wasn't for this site. I stumbled across it while searching for hypoglycemia symptoms. I had spent most of the evening reading a lot of information here. When he didn't come out for his food is when I said to hubby pull him out (behind chair in corner) and let me test him. During the day he has no problem. But during the night he does and in the mornings his BS will be over 400 and as high as 595 . I need to get this night time stable. I'm thinking his food schedule and/amounts needs to change somehow but this is where I'm not getting help from the vet.
 
Well, your info today will give you a better picture. Sometimes if a dose is too high in the am, then the pm pre shot is too low. Or sometimes they drop lower overnight than during the day (could be different food intake or activity level) and bounce up to a higher pre shot in the am.

How long after the shot was the 32 last night?
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Well, your info today will give you a better picture. Sometimes if a dose is too high in the am, then the pm pre shot is too low. Or sometimes they drop lower overnight than during the day (could be different food intake or activity level) and bounce up to a higher pre shot in the am.

How long after the shot was the 32 last night?
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4 hrs.
 
Yep. You always want to know whether the amount you are planning to give is safe. For new diabetics, we suggest not shooting under 200 (would be approximately in the 230 range for you)

Here is a primer a member wrote for Vetsulin when it was used more widely on the forum. It is 6 years old but appears to be updated.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/vetsulin-caninsulin-user-guide.302/

Be aware you will not be getting much advice from current Vetsulin users. They are some but they tend to be new. Some people have used Vetsulin in the past before switching. I hope they find you. I have not used Vetsulin but it's action is similar to PZI which I am very familiar with, so I can try to help also.
 
I vet said the two insulin were very close when we switched to Vetsulin. I just can't afford prozinc @ $200/month. But I will check into the site someone mentioned.
 
They are certainly dosed the same. ProZinc tends to have a slower drop, be less harsh and last longer. But we have certainly had cats who do fine on Vetsulin and do go into remission. If I were you, I'd give it a chance. Once you see how it works in Smokey, there may be ways to use the food to soften the curve. The most important difference is the length of cycle. If Vetsulin only lasts 8 hours and is gone, leaving the cat in high ranges for 4 hours, you can only combat that by dosing every 8 hours. Complicated and not feasible for most cat parents. But in some cats, it lasts longer. We have an annoying but absolutely true saying here : Every Cat is Different
 
Paula, here are two Vetsulin users posting regularly on Health. Though every cat is different, you may benefit from looking at their posts and spreadsheets: @Squalliesmom and @CarolandTigger I'd suggest you start a new thread on Health and include Vetsulin in the Subject line.

I can set up a spreadsheet for you in a few minutes. If you want me to, click on my picture and Start a Private Conversation. (I'll need an email address and you don't want to post that on the forum)
 
The 11am (+4) BS is 218. On the days I work (Mon, tue, fri) I put his chicken down at 10am before I leave. When I get home @4:30-5 I give him a little bit of chicken. When I'm off he gets the chicken at 1pm and then nothing until his 7pm shot and dinner. Then anywhere between 11pm-1am depending if I'm off or working is chicken again.
 
So today, 431 at preshot. Gave 3.5 U. At +2 380 and +4 218. Not a bad curve so far - not a harsh drop. But 50% already at +4. We use 50% as a gauge to see how a dose is working. A 50% nadir is reasonable. Your next test will tell you whether he has reached his low point or whether he is continuing to drop.

AlphaTrak Numbers
Amps 431. 3.5
+2 380
+4 218

If he drops into double digits at +6 (but is still above that 70 range) I'd give him a snack of his regular food. If below 70, post for help. This could be a higher flatter cycle than normal because of the probable bounce from the low last night or because we lowered the dose to be safe. Or it could prove to be a longer cycle that continues to drop. Interesting to find out.

You do need a hypo kit - Karo syrup, some higher carb food like Fancy Feast gravy flavored (you can use just a teaspoon of the gravy to bring them up if they drop low.). Maybe get both today?
 
I don't have a car today. The food with gravy he vomits. Will have to use the maple syrup. I wouldn't know what any of this meant and still don't understand some of it. But I'm learning. I'm not the type who does just what the vet says although I did in the beginning. But I realized Smokey wasn't stable anymore and to keep upping his insulin wasn't right. I need to take matters into my own hands. But I didn't know it was this complicated.
 
It is an incredibly steep learning curve in the beginning. But the more data you collect and the more you see what each dose does, the more confident you feel. It's a matter of learning what his patterns are - if you give this amount of insulin, he drops this much.

The protocol we use is the same for all insulins: a wet low carb diet (you are going to work on that, I think?) a mild long lasting insulin(jury is still out on that but you may get lucky and he may do well on Vetsulin) and home testing. The testing is the most important part. You can keep him safe. It is so scary to realize he is acting off and then try to guess what is wrong. But, like last night, you immediately found out he was too low and compensated. Another non testing owner could have just wondered and worried and her cat could have died.

So now, it's a matter of fine tuning the dose. Home testing will do that. We'll help.
 
At 1pm (+6) BS is 254. So now my question is what does this mean? Or will the next reading at 3pm tell more? He wants to eat and this is when I would normally give boiled chicken since I'm off today.
 
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