11/16 Michelangelo AMPS 282, +2/136, +4/222 +6/313

Previous Condo

Help! I bumped up his insulin this morning from .88u to a "skinny" 1u and his numbers have dropped significantly in the first two hours. There's still at least 5 more hours to go till nadir! I've only seen drops like this on days when he'd get borderline hypo (down to the 40s) and it was the whole reason I had initially decreased his dose in the first place. Does that mean I'll now have to sit on him and test him hourly in case he drops too low?

I have no idea how to get halfway between .88u and 1u.... Could I give him disparate doses every day? Like maybe .5u in the morning and 1u at night or something along those lines? This is why back before I was testing his blood sugar and he was on 1u, I would skip a morning dose about once or twice a week.

On top of it all, both my sister and my brother have been attacking me, saying that I've bought into a pharmaceutical/vet scam and I should cure Mikey "naturally" without insulin and there's no proof he even has diabetes just because they say so. I think they're completely uneducated in diabetes and insane and I've tried to show them all the evidence of what happens when you don't treat someone who has high sugar levels with insulin (eg DKA), but it's really hard having no support at home and getting told I'm doing it wrong. :cry:

Re: 11/16 Michelangelo AMPS 282, +2 136!!

:YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG: Sorry I just got back from the vet, have you tested again? You are doing great! When you see an early drop like that give a little food to slow things down, maybe even medium carb or high carb. You will get to know how Mikey reacts to the extra food. How often do you feed Mikey and what?

Changing the food to a low carb canned diet is a big step in controlling FD, but if the pancreas has been damaged over time from excess BG you need to supplement the insulin that isn't being produced. Without insulin no matter how much a cat eats it will slowly starve to death. The medical scams are the drugs for diabetes, that don't work for cats.

Re: 11/16 Michelangelo AMPS 282, +2 136!!

I had a grandfather with diabetes. I'll be happy to tell your siblings stories. I'd suggest they go read a biology text and educate themselves. As for support, you'll get that by the boatload here. Untreated diabetes kills. You're doing a wonderful job. Ask your sibs what other diseases they would like to treat "naturally." Oh. And can they show you the research evidence to support their claims.

The 136 is a safe number. How about feeding Mikey some LC food and retesting. You may need to bump up the carb levels to keep his numbers in a good range. I'm not around much today. I'm going to see if I can get Marje to stop by. If you need help, just put a "Help" in your subject line. There are lots of people here who know how to handle low numbers. Also take a look at this post on low numbers.

Re: 11/16 Michelangelo AMPS 282, +2 136, +4 222

Ann & Tess said:

:YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG: Sorry I just got back from the vet, have you tested again? You are doing great! When you see an early drop like that give a little food to slow things down, maybe even medium carb or high carb. You will get to know how Mikey reacts to the extra food. How often do you feed Mikey and what?

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I gave him half a can of FF Turkey and Giblets Classic immediately after I saw those numbers on his +2 and he's been rising again. Not sure what caused such a scary dip there, but I'm going to be keeping on him all day long to make sure the food spike is not just a temporary bump on the road down Hypoglycemic Highway. He's always been highly sensitive to food spikes and it seems to elevate his numbers quite a bit more and for quite a bit longer than what I've seen with other cats on here. In the last few days, I've started tracking his feeding along with his sugar levels to see if there's any clear pattern or correlation that I might be able to discern.

About every two to four hours, I feed him either a 1/4 or 1/2 can of FF or 1 Nature's Variety raw medallion (when I'm at work, I have a 2-compartment timed feeder that I stick them in frozen). For his "proper" meals, I usually give either 3/4 or a whole 3.5 oz can of FF with both his insulin shots and then one 5 oz can of either EVO or Nature's Variety for munching on through the night (he sleeps a lot more at night, so he doesn't get as hungry as during the day). He's only 7 months old so I'm still not sure what (if any) impact his age/growing body might be having on the effect of the insulin and food to his BG levels.

Sienne and Gabby said:

I'd suggest they go read a biology text and educate themselves. As for support, you'll get that by the boatload here. Untreated diabetes kills. You're doing a wonderful job. Ask your sibs what other diseases they would like to treat "naturally." Oh. And can they show you the research evidence to support their claims.

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They (mostly my brother; my sister is less confrontational in her disagreement with my treatment of Mikey) disregard the whole pet medical community as a bunch of snake oil salesmen and no matter what I've shown him, he's tossed it all out as being manipulated by pharmaceutical companies, pet food companies, and vets. His evidence namely being the unfortunate aspect of vets shilling Hills Prescription Diet for everything when it's mostly bunk and even potentially harmful. And no matter how many times I've asked him to find ONE "natural" cure online for me, he still hasn't done it. Doesn't shut him up about it though. :roll:

The support I've found here has been amazing and I would have probably never been able to do this properly all on my own without everyone's help. If I had, it would have taken me much, much longer and I probably wouldn't be nearly as successful! I am so glad to have found this place! Mikey says it's literally a life-saver.

Re: 11/16 Michelangelo AMPS 282, +2/136, +4/222

Your brother seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You can absolutely agree with him that the pet food companies do a lot of promotion and influence vets. Unfortunately, very few vet schools spend much time educating students on nutrition. However, direct him to Dr. Lisa's site. She's agree with him about prescription foods. She'd also address how to treat diabetes and note that it's not always possible to get a cat food-regulated as a stand alone strategy. Even cats that go OTJ are food-regulated. Encouraging your brother to be open minded and not rigid in his beliefs may save a pet he dearly loves one day. If this were his child, would he say insulin was a bad idea?

As for Mikey, I don't know that I would have fed a 1/2 of a can of food at +2. A teaspoon or two is more what will keep a cat surfing or level out a drop in numbers.

Re: 11/16 Michelangelo AMPS 282, +2/136, +4/222

I think most of us agree w/ you brother on Hills! :evil: Lantus and tight regulation are considered fringe, by most mainstream vets. WE have had to educate most of out vets on how we want our fuuballs treated. Those w/ open minds look at the results here and are willing to learn. I think your brother is actually more like most of the old school vets who won't try anything new, especially off the internet!

I think Sienne's suggestion of Dr. Lisa's site for your brother to read is perfect. He should read what she has to say about petfood companies and the over Rx of drugs for pets. Nutrition is the key to their health, but if we fail them in that then we owe it to them to give them the best care possible.

If he refuses to even read good research, I pity his pets. At least you have us for support now!

My brother finally produced some evidence and sent me this website. Has anyone ever heard of it? Does anyone know if it would do any good? Even though it claims it's for cats and dogs, most of the examples are about how it works in humans and therefore works in dogs (little to no mention of cats). And as I've learned in the last few weeks, feline diabetes is very different from canine and human diabetes, so I'm already skeptical as to the authenticity of this cure.

I also gave him the catinfo.org website over three weeks ago when I first switched Michelangelo's food from dry to wet and he wanted to know what was so wrong with the dry food I had been feeding him. I don't think he ever bothered reading it. In fact, the whole reason he knows about Hills Prescription being bunk in the first place is because I told him!! :evil:

Sienne and Gabby said:

As for Mikey, I don't know that I would have fed a 1/2 of a can of food at +2. A teaspoon or two is more what will keep a cat surfing or level out a drop in numbers.

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He eats a lot since he's still a kitten. He usually has a snack at his +2 anyway so I just gave him a bit more to be on the safe side.

His numbers have been all over the place and his curve and nadir seems to move about and jump around. I don't know what's causing his numbers to be so high lately when at 1u, he was borderline hypo even before I changed him to wet LC food. Could he have something else going on that might be causing him to need a continuing insulin increase? Could he be processing the insulin faster than an adult cat perhaps?

You are doing great! First I don't think splitting the dose and giving different amounts is good. The key with insulin is consistency.

Second, it's amazing what you can find online to back up any theory. There is a cure for everything, and there is an African king who keeps emailing me trying to give me $10 million.... When he isnt trying to sell me viagra.... You get the idea

I think the 1 unit looks like a better dose on him. Generally it's bringing him into better numbers except for the very lows. I am having similar issues with bailey and am planning to up his food carb percentage from 4% to 8% to see if I can still keep him blue all day, not reach yellow but not drop too low to hypo. Keep measuring and experimenting and see how it goes... See if this keeps happening.

There could be a number of issues affecting your little boy, he is young and his pancreas could be intermittently working. Growth spurts and energy needs could change his need for food and how he burns it through the day. On a positive note, being young his pancreas may recover faster if we can get him and keep him in blues and greens all day.

It makes it a litter harder since a kitten with diabetes is unusual and so you are blazing a new trail here.. But don't give up.. We will all work together to get him through this.

And you find everyone has an opinion and many times its uneducated. Lets see if we can get him OTJ.. That will show them!

Also I don't think his nadir is moving around.. Looks to me like quite often it's at +5 or +6... Unless he is having a bounce. And going up and down in dose is common... Just look at my two boys!

I gave Gracie gymnema for over a year. Made no difference in her BG. It seems to work better for diet controlled diabetics.