02/06 Tiger AMPS 308 - Opinions wanted

Yesterdays Post viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5270&view=unread#p52257

When I saw my vet, she wanted to make sure that he wasn't having a bad reaction to insulin as he has been poorly. She suggested taking him off for a couple of days.

So I have tried today.

Strange thing is although he doesn't seem any different health wise, so don't think he's had any bad reactions to insulin, his readings don't seem much different. If you look at his spreadsheet today, his readings are on a par with previous days.

Why should this be?

Dont have an answer for u but a little suggestion would be to do a couple of random BG readings to see what's happening without insulin.

Hope Tiger feels better soon.

Lantus works with a shed. If you don't give insulin, the shed is going to be used. So he still get's the insulin, but in this case from the shed under his skin.

tigersdad said:

When I saw my vet, she wanted to make sure that he wasn't having a bad reaction to insulin as he has been poorly. She suggested taking him off for a couple of days.

So I have tried today.

Strange thing is although he doesn't seem any different health wise, so don't think he's had any bad reactions to insulin, his readings don't seem much different. If you look at his spreadsheet today, his readings are on a par with previous days.

Why should this be?

Click to expand...

Peter...can you explain what his symptoms are? Do those symptoms make the vet believe they are from a bad reaction to insulin?

You have only just started on the dose scale and have not reached a dose that would bring lower numbers....as you know, we increase usually by .25u bid so my first thought while looking at his numbers is that he has not gotten to the "magic dose" as yet. That being said, I am wondering what the vet said about his BGs and if you do not give insulin, what would you do? Pills?

Did the vet say what you should be looking for during these next couple of days without insulin?

Did the vet give you a reason for Tiger's numbers being high and obviously "diabetic BG numbers". They are not numbers that a non-diabetic kitty would have at all.

When do you go back to the vet again?
Sorry for all the questions Peter, but I guess I am just puzzled.....hope you will bear with me and try to shed some light on this.
I feel bad for you ....you were doing so very well with the SS and tracking his BGs through the cycles and I was just so proud of how you took to this like a very conscientious tiger Dad! :smile: It makes me feel bad that Tiger is not feeling well... :sad:

Both Pat and Ella have a good point. Right now, Tiger is using the insulin that's in his shed.

I don't know enough about adverse reactions to insulin to know if this is the case for Tiger. Many of us see our cats as being lethargic and not quite themselves until their BG is better regulated. If you read some of the condos, you'll see people talking about how behaviors that haven't been present for a while are resuming as their cat's BG levels improve. I wonder if you are just being more observant now that you know that Tiger is diagnosed. I suspect we all look for the tiniest thing -- are they still breathing? Did they eat enough? Are they sleeping too much?

You know your cat and sometimes that feeling in the pit of your stomach is exactly what you need to be listening to. On the other hand, you have to offset that with knowing whether you are worrying excessively.

Hi Tigersdad,

OK I will give you a visual that's like the shed.

You are in Virden, let's call it the amps. You are going to Winnipeg, let's call it pmps. You have enough gas in your car to get to Brandon, so you need to fill up, then continue on your trip. When you are at the gas station in Brandon, you also pick up an extra big can of gas to put in your trunk because your gas tank can't hold enough gas to get you all the way to Winnipeg, and there are no gas stations along the way.

You are driving along when you finally run out of gas in your car's tank but you are OK because you have the extra can in the trunk, let's call it your shed. You can pour some into your tank as you need it, but it's your reserve.

After you are done in Winnipeg, you are going to head home, but don't forget that you have to refill your reserve, that can you keep in your trunk. If you don't keep the can full, then the next trip when you run out of gas and go to your can in the trunk, you will not have enough to get home.

I know, it's not the greatest example but it is sort of close.
When you gave Tiger some insulin, the first thing that fills is that shed, that can in the trunk. Until that shed is filled, none of the insulin you are giving to Tiger is noticed in changed numbers. Once it's filled, the rest of your insulin shots are used on Tiger.

Now, you likely had Tiger's shed just about filled but then your vet said to stop. So you did. Again, no change in the numbers because .. Tiger had that can in the trunk, that shed, and Tiger was using that reserved insulin.

So now, when you start the shots again, you will be starting over.
The shed has to be filled, and only then, will you see some changes in Tiger's numbers.

I am sure if my example needs adjusting, someone will come along and correct me.

the Canadian road trip and the shed, good analogy Gayle!

I hope you get ur answers soon, and please keep us posted what ever u decide to do - there will be people here in this forum who can guide u along ok?

tigersdad said:

Strange thing is although he doesn't seem any different health wise, so don't think he's had any bad reactions to insulin, his readings don't seem much different. If you look at his spreadsheet today, his readings are on a par with previous days.

Why should this be?

Click to expand...

i suspect there's two reasons you're not seeing much of a difference in tiger's numbers today:
1). a dose has not yet been reached which would cause a break in the numbers. in other words... not enough insulin to make any difference yet.
2). the term "shed" was coined in LL in order to present a visual. the most widely used term is INSULIN DEPOT:

"One's subcutaneous "spare tank" of insulin, which has yet to be used by the body.

Because no insulin injection is immediately 100% absorbed by the body, the yet to be used insulin stays under the skin, the system drawing on this "reserve" as needed. Any such insulin effects that last after the insulin's expected action is over are also known as carryover in some literature.

If you're using only intermediate-acting or long-acting insulin alone (without any short-acting insulin), about 24 hours worth of insulin requirements are in your depot.

The larger your insulin dose, the larger the insulin depot in your subcutaneous fat tissue. Having a large vs smaller insulin depot means the effect of the insulin can be less consistent--more chance of it varying from day to day. This same insulin depot is the reason why it can take anywhere from 2-5 days to see any effect of insulin dosage changes.

This handy "extra tank" is also there to give you a hand if you miss or are late with an injection.

On the other hand, when you do miss an injection, your "spare tank" is very low by next injection time, and so the next injection may have less effect than expected!"


hope this helps...

Vet needs more information about FD..Doesnt really know that much about lantus--Bring some articles-like Tilly protocol..Most vets are the same & we here know more about this illness then they do--Yrs. of experience with hundreds of cat is in this forum, just waiting for you..
Tiger will be fine, but just needs to find the right dose- not giving insulin is not the answer--he will surely go up without any tomorrow.-So glad you asked for opinions, you are a concerned cat dad, and are doing the best for your boy--We will be glad to help.

To everyone:

The idea is to start Lantus with 1 IE bid. I noticed that in Tiger's case that didn't happen.
Is it an idea to start over? Since he didn't get any shot now anyway?
Or not necessary in this case?