8/8 Sushi: AM +9 244 | PMPS 254 | +3 246

Hi!
Still hoping for advice on how much canned food Sushi should be eating; should I go by:
(a) what the can says? "Feed an adult 6-8 lb. cat one can twice a day." Sushi is at least twice that weight. So should I feed him 2 cans (5.5oz) twice a day / 4 cans a day?
(b) the general 1oz to 1lb rule? 16.5oz / 3 cans (5.5oz) a day?
(c) required calories/day? Sushi needs 274 - 301 calories per day = 1.5-2 cans(5.5oz)/day?
Also please see yesterday's questions about transitioning.
: )

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

Hi guys ... I don't have any advice as far as the feeding goes .. so many people on here do so many different types of feeding amounts .. Others will be along soon that can help you figure it out I'm sure .. have a great day!

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

Hello - I am by no means an expert and have only just transitioned my cat to wet food, but I found that the suggestions on the can are a little too much for our kitties who are so easily influenced by their diet. My cat is 12-16lbs as well and he gets 2.5 cans a day -
3/4can at AMBG/PMBG
1/4can at +3
1/4can at +6
I think most everyone here feeds small meals throughout the day as well, although I don't know anyone who feeds their cat the suggested amount on the can.

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

Also - I am going by Fancy Feast cans as well - those are only 3oz.

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

I don't know for sure about how much to feed for weight loss. Tarragon is 10 pounds (up from 7 at diagnosis) and still needs to gain a pound or so if you ask me. He gets 2 - 3 cans of FF classic (3 oz) a day, depending on how hungry he is. I think, at times, he also eats some of his sister's as well.

We give the following:

1 - 3 oz. can at breffis
1/2 - 3oz can for snacks throughout the day
1 - 3 oz. can at supper
1/2 - 3oz can for snacks through the night

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

Hey guys!
Thanks for your input.

So Sounds like Tarragon goes by the 1oz/1lb "rule."
And Mr. Howell gets 7.5oz to 12-16lbs.
Hum.

dasypus said:

Also - I am going by Fancy Feast cans as well - those are only 3oz.

Click to expand...

Glad you clarified! ; )
And I thought the can's recommendation of (4) 5.5oz cans/day seemed excessive.

I don't think Sushi's going to give me a choice about transitioning--he is CRAZY about canned food!!!

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

Moonie weighs 10.7 lbs & eats 3 1/2 cans of FF a day--I always thought it was a lot, but vet said it's fine..

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

There's a formula for the amount of food that a cat requires each day. It's as follows:

13.6x(ideal body weight of cat)+70=# of calories/day

For instance: Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblet has a total of 97 calories/3 oz. can (rounded up on the calories to 97, as it's actually 96.9). Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblet is 32.3 calories/ounce. If you want your cat to weigh 10 lbs., you would need to calculate the amount of calories/day that he/she will need:

13.6x10 lbs.+70=206 calories/day

Then, you take 206 calories, and divide that by 32.3 calories/ounce = 6.37 ounces/day, or rounded up, you'll give your kitty 6.4 ounces/day.

Many people feed their kitties mini meals each day, which helps keep them from dropping so quickly, and it helps to split the major meals into smaller ones (if that makes sense).

You'll be able to find the calories in each food in these links:

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodOld.html

I hope that these help you, and good luck!

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

One thing to also keep in mind is that your dear Sushi isn't regulated yet, and unregulated kitties need more food than non-diabetic, regulated kitties. They don't process their food well, so they need more food to get the same amount of nutrients. With Oscar, we started out with 3-4 cans of FF a day for him, depending on his appetite. Yoda was so malnourished, he got 6 cans a day in the beginning and would have eaten more if we put it down for him. Once they start gaining weight back, you start decreasing the food until you get to your desired weight. I know this isn't a scientific process, but every cat processes food differently and you should really go by ideal weight rather than calories.

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

Hi guys my cat Do Lou is too fat but my vet and I have kinda given up on the lose weight thing for him he has so many health issues going on but I do still try to kinda watch his diet but he is a big boy he is 15lbs and should be about 12-13 anyway I feed him 4 cans (3 0z )a day and it took me 4-ever............................. to get him from dry to wet my cat hated and I do mean hated wet and now he just loves it now.

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

This formula is even more simple. In order to maintain a kitty's current weight feed 20 calories per lb per day. In the above example a ten pound cat would need 200 cals a day to stay at 10 lbs. Look at binkys list for the cal content of what ever flavor you are using and see how many cans would be needed to total 200. If you want him to lose weight feed less. Gain weight feed more. Bob weighed 14 lbs. (280 cal/da). I gave him 230-250 per for two weeks. He lost half a pound.
Carl

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

good morning ashley!

punkin weighs 14.3 lbs and eats 3-3oz cans of fancy feast per day, plus he cleans up anya's plate 4x a day, which might be as much as another 1/2 can. according to the calories and his size he should get 4 cans a day, but he's holding steady with the 3+. you'll have to just watch sushi and see what amount keeps his weight steady. you don't want him to lose weight too quickly. i do the same feeding schedule as bonnie - 1 can with shot and 1/2 can at +3, morning and evening.

re moving in with your friend - that's so individual it's hard to guess. some cats don't mind other cats, some have hissy fits. basically when you introduce cats to each other you let them get acquainted without being able to touch. when i brought in an adult cat (punkin) i kept him shut in a room and let the cats hiss at each other behind the door. some people use a pet carrier with one in it and one in the room. eventually i think most cats will get used to another, but i don't really know that.

one plus - if you have a roommate maybe she'd be willing to learn to give shots to help you keep sushi on schedule. perhaps you could barter doing something for her. another thought - i know the baton rouge friends are important, but while you're unemployed i wonder if you could take a break from the visits in order to help sushi get stabilized. just a thought.

oh - i saw ann's suggestion about a second litter box - that's a good idea. i took a cardboard lid from a case of paper, slipped it into a garbage bag, and that's my "travel" litter box. easy way to have a second box for a short time. if you're not keeping the box immaculate, accidents might be sushi's way of commenting on that!

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

Hi Ashley,

What food are you transitioning to? The calorie content of each particular food could affect how much you feed. For example, Bandit weighs 13 lbs and eats 7.5 oz of Fancy feast a day, but if I'm feeding him Merricks or EVO he only gets 6 oz a day because there are more calories in those foods.

Some things that might affect feeding decisions right now is Sushi's weight. Is he overweight or underweight? If he needs to gain weight I would feed him whenever he's hungry, and try and get as many calories in him as possible (so you might actually want to go with a high calorie food like Wellness or EVO until he puts a few pounds back on). You can always readjust food once he's at a healthy weight.

If he needs to lose weight, a good starting place is the formula Angela posted.

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296

hello!!

re moving in with your friend - that's so individual it's hard to guess. some cats don't mind other cats, some have hissy fits. basically when you introduce cats to each other you let them get acquainted without being able to touch. when i brought in an adult cat (punkin) i kept him shut in a room and let the cats hiss at each other behind the door. some people use a pet carrier with one in it and one in the room. eventually i think most cats will get used to another, but i don't really know that.
Yes, I went through this with introducing my other cat, Bella, to Sushi. It's been a L O N G road for the two of them. Sushi doesn't seem to mind other cats, but other cats HATE him. I don't think I've ever seen him interact with another cat that didn't hiss at him right away. He gets very inquisitve and I think moves too fast and they react defensively. I'm not so worried about HIM being upset (It doesn't seem to bother him, but don't know if it's stressful for him to be hissed at--? ), I'm worried about the other cats.
My concern here is about the stress that the moving process + adjusting to living with a new aunt + 2 new siblings will put him through. That's a lot of change!

one plus - if you have a roommate maybe she'd be willing to learn to give shots to help you keep sushi on schedule. perhaps you could barter doing something for her.
Yes, I've thought of that too! But our schedule will not be an issue once I move. It's my frequent visits to Baton Rouge that are disrupting our schedule.

another thought - i know the baton rouge friends are important, but while you're unemployed i wonder if you could take a break from the visits in order to help sushi get stabilized. just a thought.
Yes, but my class reunion is this weekend; can't really miss that! It's been on the calendar for months now. After that things should be more stable. But I have a (good!) feeling that I'm going to get a job I interviewed for and possibly start working in BR next week. Who knows?! It's all so up in the air! The timing of all of this is pretty bad.

oh - i saw ann's suggestion about a second litter box - that's a good idea. i took a cardboard lid from a case of paper, slipped it into a garbage bag, and that's my "travel" litter box. easy way to have a second box for a short time. if you're not keeping the box immaculate, accidents might be sushi's way of commenting on that!
I've had a lot of litter box suggestions...that's another complicated Pandora's box with us so I'm trying to save this topic for later. Since I'm around most of the day lately I've been able to catch him and praise him for going in the litter box, so we haven't had an out-of-the-box poop in a week or so.
I do keep the box pretty immaculate, and it's been going on long enough to rule out cleanliness of the box as the culprit. (One time he did it RIGHT AFTER I brought the box in from hosing it out and filling it with fresh litter.) Of course I've researched this a TON, and the explination that seems to be the best fit is that it hurts when he poops, so he associates pooping in the box with pain.
...but let's come back to LBs!

What food are you transitioning to?
9 Lives, which is ~160 calories/5.5oz can. I'm going to bring yesterday's info and questions over here...

Info/questions from yesterday

Info/questions from yesterday:

Sushi said:

Okay, I read both "Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition" & "Feline Diabetes" by Dr. Lisa ("Tips for Transitioning" link didn't work). I did pick up a few extra tidbits, but you guys have basically told me everything already! And I also didn't find a whole lot about an actual plan or guidelines for transitioning from dry to wet food.

So, yes, I have questions, and I need help making a plan!

How much canned food should I feed?
"The average cat should eat 4-6 ounces of canned food per day"
The 5.5oz cans I have of 9 Lives say "Feed an adult 6-8 lb. cat one can twice a day." Sushi is at least twice that weight. So should I feed him 2 cans twice a day / 4 cans a day?
Another brand I looked at at the store said 1oz to 1lb. Based on that we could go with 3 cans / 16.5oz a day? I feed him about 1c (16oz) of dry now, so we're basically making an even swap?
...cats should "consume at least 15 calories per pound per day. This number is figured on lean body weight, not fat weight."
I'm going to say our range should be 15lbs/225 calories - 17lbs/255 calories.
Each can has ~160 calories each. He should only have about 2 cans based on our calorie goal. It's not adding up!

Losing Weight
"A cat should never lose more than 1-2% of his body weight per week - preferably closer to 1%."
Of lean body weight or fat weight? How do you ensure that?

Dosage
"If you change your diabetic cat's diet to one with lower carbohydrates, he will, in all probability, IMMEDIATELY (not days or weeks later) require a reduction in his insulin dosage."
I get that, but I don't get HOW. Do you start back over at 1u/dose? What would you recommend based on Sushi's numbers so far?
You all have stressed how important it is that I keep Sushi's dosage consistent. Is that still the case here?
"Every case is different and definitive recommendations with respect to how far to lower the insulin dosage (when you start the diet change) cannot be given without knowing the specifics of each case. There are many crucial factors to be considered:"
- carbohydrate content of the original: Hills dry m/d - 16%
- carbohydrate content of the new diet: 9 Lives canned - 5% or below
- how fast the change to a low carb diet is made: I have 5 days until I have a major blip in my schedule where I'll be gone from 1pm Saturday - around 9am Sunday (our doses are given at 5:30am/pm)
- how carb 'sensitive' the cat's body is: ?
- how quickly the cat's body responds to the decrease in carbs: ?
- how the cat, in general, reacts to insulin: Can this be gained from our SS yet?
- has the cat ever been positive for ketones in his urine: yes
- current dosage of insulin: 10u/day
- current blood glucose levels of the patient: see our SS

Thank youuuuuu!!

Click to expand...

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296 | +6 284

High Ashley

Fitst let's simplify your goals right now. The first is to get Sushi fully transitioned to wet food. He likes it which is a plus. The only reason not to just do it all at once is that the insulin needs can change drastically when you do, perhaps leading to a hypo situation. Every day put out a little more wet and a little less dry food. Do it gradually over a week, until he is just eating the canned. As Kelley said as he becomes regulated he will be able to more completely metabolized the food he eats, so he will want to eat less. Right now just give him as much as he wants. Few cats really need the intervention of a diet and will eat as much as they need. Just make sure he is getting at least the minimum to prevent DKA. The "15 calories / pound of ideal weight" is the minimum a cat should have to prevent DKA.

Next start worrying about how much he weighs. Figuring out Ideal weight is a little tricky, but basically he should have a waist visible behind his ribcage. The ribs and spine should not be visible, but you should be able to feel the ribs when pressing lightly w/ the flat of your hand. Here is a visual chart to give you and idea. http://www.purina.com/cat/weight-control/bodycondition.aspx

How much Sushi eats will depend on a number of thing:

• --is he at ideal weigh, over weight, or under weight
  --how old is he
  --how active is he

There is a great chart on the Max's House site on kcal needed by age. I had to reformat it so the columns would work out here (we can't use actual tabs :? .)

Energy Requirements for Kittens and Adult Cats
……….Age …..kcal/lb body wt ….kcal/kg body wt
Kittens:

• 10 weeks ….113 …………..248
  20 weeks …...59 …………..130
  30 weeks ..….45 …………….99
  40 weeks …...36 …………….80

Adult Cats:

• Inactive …...18 …………..40
  Active …......20-30 …….45-65
  Pregnant ..…45 ………....99
  Lactating* ...56--145 ....123--319

Click to expand...

I wouldn't pay attention to what it says on the cans, they want to sell more catfood. How much to feed depends on the calories not the volume of food. Dr. Lisa's formula of "13.6 x (ideal body weight of cat) +70 = calories/day" is a starting point for a weight loss plan. "A cat should never lose more than 1-2% of his body weight per week - preferably closer to 1%." is also in reference to a weight loss plan. Any faster than that and , again, the cat is in danger.

BTW: once you get to Dr. Lisa's site she has links to all her other pages.

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296 | +6 284

Like Kelly and Ann advised, right now give him as much as he wants, and since he is still unregulated and has gone into DKA in the past, it's agood idea to mix some water into his food. BK has been OTJ since 10/2009 and I still add water to his food.

BK ate 15-16 oz. of Wellness per day in the beginning. He want up to 13lbs, which was slightly portly, and now he is 11.4 and looks perfect. He now eats 2 3oz. cans of FF per day, divided into smal meals throughout the day and night. A lot easier on the pocketbook!

I too go mostly by sight, using the chart Ann linked you to.

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296 | +6 284

I want to really push that a formula will not be an exact science. Its only a starting point. Every cat is different. No single formula works for every human. Please get an accurate scale to know if you are feeding enough. You have a history of FHL which others may not be aware of. A few weeks with not enough calories could cause a crisis.

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296 | +6 284 | +9 244

Thanks for all of this guys! Sooo helpful!! : )

Right now just give him as much as he wants.
I usually put 1/2c out twice a day. So I should just free feed?

A lot of you have mentioned something similar to what Sandy & Black Kitty do: "He now eats 2 3oz. cans of FF per day, divided into small meals throughout the day and night."
I'm used to putting a certain amount of food out twice a day, he eats on it throughout the day, and finishes by the next meal time. Does this need to change?

Sushi said:

I have a major blip in my schedule where I'll be gone from 1pm Saturday - around 9am Sunday (our doses are given at 5:30am/pm)

Click to expand...

I decided to have a cat sitter to come feed/test/dose Sushi at 5:30 on Saturday, and I'll skip Sunday's AM dose. Is that okay?

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296 | +6 284 | +9 244

in general you want most of sushi's food to be given to him in the first 4ish hours after a shot. that means that the carbs and the insulin to deal with it are coming together at roughly the same time.

at one point (prediabetes) my vet told me to put down food and pick up whatever was uneaten after 30 minutes. i think with diabetes if you're worried about him losing weight, i might put down and let him eat as much as he wants for the first 4 hours, then pick it up and only give a low carb treat following a poke after that.

i think what you'll find is that every other person on here has a very scientific method to their feeding madness and reasons why it works. :lol: so probably the answer is that you just need to tinker around and try and see what works best for sushi and you!

if you want someone to give you a hard and fast plan - i'd be happy to. i'm bossy that way. i have kids. :lol: put out one can of food with sushi's shot and give another 1/2 can right after you test him at +3. repeat that morning and evening and see how he is weight-wise in one week. i suspect this is how bonnie got her feeding plan! BUT, don't let him lose more weight - so you have to keep an eye on that, as everyone with experience with that has said.

for saturday/sunday - honestly, that's probably ok. skipping one shot is the equivalent to a "fur shot" that we've all done accidently. if you ever give a shot and sushi moves while you're giving it so that some insulin doesn't go in, or you stick the needle in and it goes clear through and the insulin goes out the other side, or some other version of "i don't know how much insulin went in" - you never re-shoot. better to have them go too high for a day than to get too much insulin. we call that a fur shot. you're going to call sunday morning a fur shot and try not to over-think it! ;-)

Re: 8/8 Sushi: AMPS 275 | +3 296 | +6 284 | +9 244

julie1220 said:

you're going to call sunday morning a fur shot and try not to over-think it!

Click to expand...

Fur shots happen ;-)

...we've been all yellow today! Looks like the best day we've had yet. I so appreciate everyone's input and advice, and for sharing how you do things.
I decided/figured out that Sushi's actually been on 25% wet for the past day & 1/2, so at his PM feeding I decided to go for 1/2 wet & 1/2 dry. He seems to be eating it as he did his dry--grazing. So I think I'm actually going to leave it out for him until he finishes. We'll see.

julie1220 said:

if you want someone to give you a hard and fast plan - i'd be happy to. i'm bossy that way. i have kids. :lol:
you're going to call sunday morning a fur shot and try not to over-think it! ;-)

Click to expand...

LOVE IT!!!! :lol:

Now that I have a tiny bit of understanding, I spent some of my FDMB time watching videos and looking at pictures of our new friends. What fun! I put together a little album of my own for Sushi.
What are these bananas I see? They look fun! Please don't tell me they have catnip! Sushi + catnip = :shock: He licks it, drools and acts really strange--not a playful, fun strange but a scary strange. I have such a hard time finding toys without catnip! Even the scratchers that come with a tiny ziplock bag of catnip are no good. He licks a hole in the scratcher where the catnip bag was! :?

...okay back to business. Another part of today's homework was reading the sticky on LANTUS & LEVEMIR - INFO, PROPER HANDLING, & STORAGE. I thought this was the one thing I had a handle on, but was shocked to read that:
• Never shake or roll your vial, cartridge, or pen. What about rocking it? My vet told me to rock and/or roll it.
• Do not inject air into vial and especially not cartridges or pens. I've been following the instructions that came with my syringes: "Pull the plunger down to let desired units of air into syringe. You need air in the syringe to equal the amount of insulin you will take. >> Push needle through the center of rubber top of insulin bottle and push plunger down completely."
• If you draw up too much insulin in the syringe... squirt excess either into the air dramatically like they do on TV or into a paper towel... anywhere but back into vial/cartridge/pen. There is a silicon coating inside the syringe. It can contaminate the insulin vial with silicon (this is probably what makes "floaties", it forms a white precipitate). Better to waste a drop than ruin whole vial, cartridge, or pen. This is also different than what my vet told me. He said to draw it wayy past the unit you want and then push it back up to where you would like it to be. And how in the world do you get rid of air bubbles if you can't push them back into the vial and do another draw?
Oh geeze...I've been doing EVERYTHING wrong! :?

oh sad face. yes, you've gotten bad advice. the "roll your insulin" doesn't apply to lantus or levemir, which are clear solutions. it applies to ProZinc, which is a solution that has to be mixed. lantus and levemir don't separate and don't have to be mixed. my vet started us on prozinc which has to be rolled and he also never told me not to roll it. *sigh* i rolled ours plenty.

so - don't roll your lantus.

are you using a vial or pen? it makes a difference in what you do because there is air in the vial and there is no air in the pen.

for a vial: when it tells you to inject air into the vial, you are supposed to inject air into the AIR of the vial. that keeps the pressure workable. but you DON'T ever inject anything into the liquid insulin. the reason for that is because our syringes have a lubricant inside them and that lubricant will contaminate your insulin. unfortunately, you'll have to watch your insulin and when you see any floaters, stringy thingies, or it seems like your insulin might have lost its potency you'll want to replace it.

to withdraw from the vial - work the plunger back and forth, leave it open to the # of units you want, inject the air into the air of the vial, then flip the entire works upside down (vial on top, syringe below) and withdraw the amount you need plus a tiny bit extra. withdraw the needle, point it upwards, tap out the bubbles and squirt out the excess insulin into the air. if you don't inject the air into the vial you develop a negative pressure. i've had the insulin get sucked back out of the syringe into the vial from the negative pressure!

for the pen: you work the syringe plunger so that it moves freely, then close the plunger like you're squeezing out all of the air, and at that point put the needle into the rubber stopper of the pen. withdraw the amount of insulin you need plus a tiny extra. withdraw the needle from the stopper, hold it pointed upwards, tap out bubbles and squirt the excess insulin into the air. the pen works on a negative pressure so you want no air in the pen. i had a hard time switching between the vial and the pen because you really do need to use a different technique with each of them.

don't worry about doing it wrong - you have to learn. think Life University. this is Feline Diabetes 101 and you have to pay for your education. if your insulin goes bad sooner than you'd have hoped, just count it as tuition. at least you know the real stuff now.