HELP! Transitioning from dry to wet food

Good Morning!
So Sushi's appetite has decreased. He's eaten half of what he normally does since late Thursday night. And his sides feel like they're caving in. :?

I posted a big ole reply at almost 12am to yesterday's condo. Here it is:

Sushi said:

Okay, I'm finally finding time to sit down and get back to all of you...

Sandy and Black Kitty said:

I have to say, after reading all that, my head is spinning (need more )

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:lol: I think it would make your head spin with or w/o !

Roni and Moonie said:

You need to...try to do this in a workable way!

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I couldn't agree more--that's why I'm here! ;-)

Roni and Moonie said:

Also-you are on Lantus??

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Yes!

Julie1220 said:

my cat was diagnosed with acromegaly 2 months ago - and we've had 5-6 cats diagnosed with it right about the same time. but it could be a case of "i just bought a red car and now i see red cars everywhere!"

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No, I have a feeling that you're right. *deep breath* Another mountain to climb--I've got way too much to wrap my head around for the moment, but this is something I DEFINITELY want to come back to.
In fact, I have list of questions but I'm trying not to ask them all at once, and one of them was for you. Our kitties seem very similar (I'm telling you they look so much alike in the face! They're brothers! ;-)), and I would love to know more of your story; thought you might have some insight as to whether there was hope for big guys like ours to be OTJ. Again, let's come back to that.

Julie1220 said:

like get up at 5:30am and give his shot then, and again at 5:30pm every time you can.

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Even before I posted all of this, I've been thinking this was the route I want to go, I just didn't know whether schedule option A was best. At this point and time I'm okay with waking up at 5:30am, but I do have a few concerns about that:
(1) if I have a vet tech help me, I can't ask them to come to my house at 5:30 in the morning.
(2) at best, I will be able to keep a consistent 5:30AM/PM schedule for a week:

Sushi said:

next Saturday (in a week) I have to be in Baton Rouge for 1pm, and will return Sunday morning around 9am. So I would be skipping his Saturday PM dose and late on his Sunday AM dose.

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Julie1220 said:

find a pet sitter that will test and give shots. ask at your vet's office if there is a vet tech who could come by and do that for you. mine charges $15 each visit and yes, it's expensive - but you're not doing it every day. you're talking about once or twice a week until you move back to baton rouge sometime in the near future.

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Okay, another factor/concern is that I'm in between jobs and not exactly in the best financial place at the moment. I'm doing all I can (actually probably MORE than I should!), but money does limit me somewhat.
I think I can cover the few times a week I will be going to Baton Rouge by giving the AM dose at 5:30am, but what about when I'm transitioning? eta--transitioning/moving to Baton Rouge, not transitioning from dry to wet food.

Ann & Tess said:

Wonderful that Sushi is liking that canned food. :thumbup That is a big hurdle cleared.

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I know!! It's cracking me up--he loves it so much I'm using it as his treat when I test him. He goes CRAZY!!

Sandy and Black Kitty said:

You said that the vet got the glucometer for you - please advise if it is the AlphaTrack

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He did but I never picked it up. I kind of cut myself off from my vet after that. I'm using a ReliOn Confirm meter.

Sandy and Black Kitty said:

a glucometer is the device used to test the blood glucose levels.

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Okay. Bringing Sushi in for a BG test is listed as "Glucometer" on my vet invoices. So I'm wondering what exactly they mean by that; if it was a one time test or if they did a curve.

Sandy and Black Kitty said:

If you do not yet have ketostix, stop at any pharmacy and ask for them. It's very important you regularly test Sushi for ketones since he has a history

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I do have some. I tested Wednesday and he was negative; I couldn't believe it!! But while we're on the subject, I have some questions about this:
- All the info I've come across says to "test regularly" or something vague. Can you give me a frequency that I should be testing for ketones? Every day? Every other day?
- Is there a certain BG level that warrants a ketone test?

I so appreciate your answers and encouragement!
Here are questions I'm dying to have answered:

Sushi said:

next Saturday I have to be in Baton Rouge for 1pm, and will return Sunday morning around 9am. So I would be skipping his Saturday PM dose and late on his Sunday AM dose. How do I handle that?
Or yesterday, I had to leave around 2pm and didn’t return until 11pm. So I was 5 hours late on his PM dose. What would have been the best course of action?

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- How do ya'll (the Louisianaian in me had to come out sometime) handle schedule changes with your kitties?
- Have any of you used Care.com or Sittercity.com to find a pet sitter? Know anything/have any feedback?

Sushi said:

a friend and I are discussing moving in together. She has 2 cats as well. What do you think about the stress of moving + the stress of moving in with a new aunt and 2 new siblings?

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This is a decision I need to make ASAP--if it's not a good idea to move in with my friend + her 2 cats, I need to let her know ASAP.

Thanks again! Hope everyone is having a good weekend! :razz:

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Re: 8/7 Sushi: AMPS 309 | +3~304

...also posted this yesterday:

Sushi said:

Sandy and Black Kitty said:

I'm very concerned about the DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) and the liver and pancreas problems. Of those 3 I have experienced DKA twice with my cat - it's extremely dangerous and *can* ramp up pretty fast sometimes. What did the vet recommend for the liver and pancreas issues?

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confused_cat
He said that they were all diabetes related, and that tackling the diabetes would straighten everything else out.

I know no time is a good time to receive such news, but I mentioned that Sushi's hospititalzation/diagnosis came at a horrible time; Sushi being sick wasn't the only crisis I was dealing with. Not to mention his diagnosis was a complete shock. Worse case scerio, I thought he ate something bad or got into some poision. I was NOT prepared for all of this and was completely BESIDE MYSELF. I scribbled the following on a sticky note as I received the news (AKA got hit by a train), and I don't really know what it means:
"ALT range. His 900." (I think this is a BG level)
Normal range 74-159. His 411." (I think this is a liver enzyme level)
"Liver enzymes ^
Diabeteic
Insulin
<fatty liver syndrome>
Liver failure
Critical"
Do you have any insight as to what this means? Researching all of this is on my list of homework.

A few days passed and I began to collect myself a bit, and I made a list of questions to ask the vet when I picked Sushi up from the hospital. Here are my notes verbatum:
"So what exactly happened? Pancreatitis that affected liver
Are liver issues & diabetes related? Thinks so."
So I still don't exactly know what happened and I'm not sure the vet does either.

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Re: 8/7 Sushi: AMPS 309 | +3~304

Roommate: Last question first... I think a lot will depend on the size of the place your friend has. You and she will need to agree on a plan to integrate your cats. Initially, you will need to keep Sushi separated from her cats. If this is possible, it should be fine. You will need to gradually introduce the cats first by smell, then sight and then with supervised visits. Pam Johnson-Bennett is a feline behaviorist and has a good book available on integrating cats into a household.

Shot times/skipping: Every situation with shot times is different. The general rule is do what you can to shoot every 12 hours. You have a little bit of flex with that timing but not a lot. Any time you need to move a shot time, you need to remember that the next shot will be in 12 hours. So, if you get home 5 hours late, you can certainly shoot but the problem will be that your next shot will be 12 hours later. That next shot may not be at a time that is feasible for your schedule. This leaves you with the only other alternative -- skipping the shot. Shot times can be adjusted either 15 min. per shot or 30 min. once a day without having a big effect on the shed.

Ketones: Most of us routinely test for ketones. If you've had a sick kitty, it's especially important to test for ketones. (Infection + not eating + not enough insulin/high numbers = a recipe for ketones.) If your cat is recently recovering from an episode of DKA, you want to test for ketones daily or as often as you can given that some cats are not happy about you stalking them to the litter box. You also want to test if you notice any behavioral changes (e.g., lethargy, not eating) or you notice the smell of acetone/alcohol on your cat's breath. If you do notice this, it's very likely that ketone levels are higher than you want. Ketones can develop quickly and can be lethal to say nothing about expensive to treat since it's usually a situation where your cat needs to be treated on an ICU. Trace ketones can usually be dealt with at home. Anything beyond trace requires emergency veterinary intervention. If your cat doesn't have a history of ketones, testing once a week is probably fine.

Lab report: Pancreatitis can destroy the beta cells in the pancreas. It's these cells that produce insulin and as a result, your cat develops diabetes. Pancreatitis is an incredibly painful illness. Cats, unlike humans, are very good at compartmentalizing their pain and as a result, you may not notice their discomfort until there are marked behavioral changes like not eating. When a cat doesn't eat or doesn't consume enough calories, they can develop a condition called hepatic lipidosis (i.e. "fatty liver" disease). If this is bad, they can go into liver failure. ALT is Alanine Transferase -- a liver enzyme. In and of itself, it is not diagnostic for a liver problem. While it is present in the liver, it's also in red blood cells and striated muscle cells. Damage to any of these cells can cause an elevation in ALT. Basically, what this looks like to me is that Sushi was one sick kitty. Like my cat, Sushi was diagnosed with pancreatitis, hepatic lipidosis, and diabetes at the same time. The pancreatitis caused the diabetes and the not eating because of the pancreatitis caused the hepatic lipidosis. All of this in combination would have contributed to the development of DKA. It's a domino effect.

Re: 8/7 Sushi: AMPS 309 | +3~304

I think you need to stop looking at all the obstacles in front of you & start to take one thing at one time!
You are totally overwhelmed right now & you need to look at the immediate instead of at the whole picture.
You dont need to quote everyone every time you post--We can see what was written..just by going through your condo that day.
It is OK to skip a shot, but you must expect the BG to go up a bit..Shooting early can lower bg, shooting late will produce a little increase in bg...So please prepare yourself.
We all help each other here..Try to take one thing at a time, and also LOOK, Sushi's numbers are lower today than yesterday ! That's good.You can do this!
If you are between jobs, why cant you be there to do a nice regular schedule for Sushi, and for yourself?
Then try to set up what will be comfortable for both of you?--You need to start on a solid base, then get on a workable pattern.
Just to let you know, many of us work & are able to care for our FD cats-It does take some sacrifice & devotion and I think you love Sushi very much! So dont look at the whole picture right now.
It just becomes part of your life after a while..I think you will be just fine!

Re: 8/7 Sushi: AMPS 309 | +3 304 | +5 263 | +6 318

Guess who I just caught grooming himself!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :razz:

Re: 8/7 Sushi: AMPS 309 | +3~304

I see tons of fabulous answers to your questions from Sienne and Roni , all from hands on experience.

Regarding ketone testing, being that Black Kitty had 2 episodes of DKA , when BKs BGs where high (High 300 +), sometimes I tested several times a day . Once things simmered down for us, I would just check weekly. I recommend that you note those tests/results on Sushis ss. I have them marked in BKs ss; I just placed the results in the cell appropriate to the day/time I tested. That way I could get a quicker picture at a glance.

:?: What did you decide about transitioning Sushi to wet? Did you start? That right there can result in a need for less insulin so you'll need to closely monitor. Hopefully someone who has gone through the dry to wet transition will come along.

Like Roni said take one thing at a time.

Then see what unfolds

Re: 8/7 Sushi: AMPS 309 | +3 304 | +5 263 | +6 318

WOOT!!! on the grooming! You know he is feeling better when he starts going back to normal habits.

Roni is Right. The only way to deal w/ all this is one thing at a time. Until you actually are commuting back and forth set you schedule and stick with it. Worry about the new schedule when it is time to change.

You are transitioning to wet food as well. Once that is accomplished you will see many other changes in Sushi which will require other readjustments. Take them as they come.

Re: 8/7 Sushi: AMPS 309 | +3 304 | +5 263 | +6 318

HOORAY FOR GROOMING!!!!

8/7 Sushi: +6 318 | +9 333 | PMPS 379

mybuddybinks said:

HOORAY FOR GROOMING!!!!

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I know!!! It wasn't anything too extensive, but I did catch him in the act!

Wow THANK YOU for all of this great information!!!!
I'm starting to feel a bit more like myself again for the first time this week. Testing has gone better today and Sushi is in a sweet, tolerant mood. I think (and hope!) the dust is starting to settle. *sigh o relief!*

"Roommate: Last question first... I think a lot will depend on the size of the place your friend has."
We are looking for a 3 BR/2 Bath place. It will be the two of us and 4 cats (we each have 2). What do you think?

"If you are between jobs, why cant you be there to do a nice regular schedule for Sushi, and for yourself? Then try to set up what will be comfortable for both of you?"
The inconsistency of my schedule wasn't/isn't due so much to my job as it is me travelling back to Baton Rouge at least once a week.

"What did you decide about transitioning Sushi to wet? Did you start? That right there can result in a need for less insulin so you'll need to closely monitor. Hopefully someone who has gone through the dry to wet transition will come along."
I haven't made a decision yet. I feel I need to research the transition process a bit more before I make a decision. I just scoured my history to find links and advice given thus far. Just printed "Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition" - everything you need to know about proper nutrition and lots more from Lisa A. Pierson, DVM. to read next. Let me read it and I'm sure I'll have questions. I'd love to make a decision tonight.
But I suppose I've already started the transition? Sushi seems to be eating 1/4c to 7/16c of dry food, and I've been giving him about 1oz of canned in treats after I test PER 12 HRS. So that's about 1/2c to 7/8c of dry & 2 oz of canned a day? It's a step?

Be back soon! : )

Okay, I read both "Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition" & "Feline Diabetes" by Dr. Lisa ("Tips for Transitioning" link didn't work). I did pick up a few extra tidbits, but you guys have basically told me everything already! And I also didn't find a whole lot about an actual plan or guidelines for transitioning from dry to wet food.

So, yes, I have questions, and I need help making a plan!

How much canned food should I feed?
"The average cat should eat 4-6 ounces of canned food per day"
The 5.5oz cans I have of 9 Lives say "Feed an adult 6-8 lb. cat one can twice a day." Sushi is at least twice that weight. So should I feed him 2 cans twice a day / 4 cans a day?
Another brand I looked at at the store said 1oz to 1lb. Based on that we could go with 3 cans / 16.5oz a day? I feed him about 1c (16oz) of dry now, so we're basically making an even swap?
...cats should "consume at least 15 calories per pound per day. This number is figured on lean body weight, not fat weight."
I'm going to say our range should be 15lbs/225 calories - 17lbs/255 calories.
Each can has ~160 calories each. He should only have about 2 cans based on our calorie goal. It's not adding up!

Losing Weight
"A cat should never lose more than 1-2% of his body weight per week - preferably closer to 1%."
Of lean body weight or fat weight? How do you ensure that?

Dosage
"If you change your diabetic cat's diet to one with lower carbohydrates, he will, in all probability, IMMEDIATELY (not days or weeks later) require a reduction in his insulin dosage."
I get that, but I don't get HOW. Do you start back over at 1u/dose? What would you recommend based on Sushi's numbers so far?
You all have stressed how important it is that I keep Sushi's dosage consistent. Is that still the case here?
"Every case is different and definitive recommendations with respect to how far to lower the insulin dosage (when you start the diet change) cannot be given without knowing the specifics of each case. There are many crucial factors to be considered:"
- carbohydrate content of the original: Hills dry m/d - 16%
- carbohydrate content of the new diet: 9 Lives canned - 5% or below
- how fast the change to a low carb diet is made: I have 5 days until I have a major blip in my schedule where I'll be gone from 1pm Saturday - around 9am Sunday (our doses are given at 5:30am/pm)
- how carb 'sensitive' the cat's body is: ?
- how quickly the cat's body responds to the decrease in carbs: ?
- how the cat, in general, reacts to insulin: Can this be gained from our SS yet?
- has the cat ever been positive for ketones in his urine: yes
- current dosage of insulin: 10u/day
- current blood glucose levels of the patient: see our SS

Thank youuuuuu!!

One more question:
Are you supposed to put uneaten canned food in the fridge? :?

Since your cat has a history of fatty liver you must make sure he/she maintains their weight so their liver won't take a hit and start the fatty liver cycle. Maverick also had a history of fatty liver and almost died from it. I had to syringe feed him to ensure he was eating enough. He wasn't on insulin at the time - controlled with the switch to wet food. The only way to know if you are feeding enough is to get an accurate scale. If you are in the US you can get a shipping scale that measures to the ounce or better quite cheaply with free shipping often on ebay. I bought a baby scale when Maverick was recovering from FHL. Weighing him caught his diabetes before other symptoms showed up.

Every single cat is different just like every human is. A 5.5oz can is a good guideline. Maverick was 15lbs and ate more than this but he was sedentary also due to arthritis. A scale is the only way you can monitor accurately. A human scale won't cut it.

If you are looking for a 3 bedroom apartment, it should be possible to alternate keeping one pair of cats in a bedroom until you are able to get them to integrate.

This is a formula to determine calories per day: Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70
For a cat that weighs between 15 - 17 lbs, the calorie range would be 274 - 301 calories per day. This formula is generous with respect to caloric intake. The best way to determine if your cat is loosing too much (or gaining too much) weight is to weigh the cat. You need a baby scale.

Usually a cat's numbers will tell us if a change in diet is effecting BG levels. Sometimes, we will suggest dropping the dose in larger amounts than recommended by the dosing protocol if the change in food is causing large drops in numbers. Given your situation with not being home, it may make more sense to start over at 1.0u. However, health issues need to be taken into consideration. In a cat with a history of ketones, lowering dose too quickly can be problematic.

Ashley -- I think you want hard and fast answers or "rules." The only rule in these parts is that Every Cat is Different (ECID). Much of what we look at are patterns. We do our best to use the dosing protocol as a guideline but there are often situations where judgement trumps the protocol. With food, there's not any means of answering all of your questions other than sometimes you just need to take a leap. Most of the recommendations about transitioning from dry to canned food are written from the standpoint of someone having a cat that is a dry food junkie. It can be difficult to get a cat that is addicted to kibble to accept canned food. If you can switch Sushi to canned AND be testing to insure numbers aren't dropping, great. If not, then make the transition slowly. No one can tell you what to do since you're the only one who knows the limitations your schedule imposes.

Hi! Thanks for your answers.

I feel like I need to at least know how much canned food Sushi should be eating before I make the switch. It looks like it should be between 2 and 4 cans (5.5oz) a day, but that's too broad of a range IMO. Can anyone help me here? Or maybe I'm just not getting it?

Also, should I refrigerate leftover canned food or is it okay to leave it room temp?

Sushi said:

One more question:
Are you supposed to put uneaten canned food in the fridge? :?

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good morning,
I have time to answer this one!

remember: ECID

we use to put it in fridge (sealed) it got silly, and too cold.
We go thru 2 cans a day, it gets used up fast enough there is no risk of leaving it out on counter, as long as its properly sealed.
My non diabetic actually got pukey eating cold food, and I've heard, it can upset tummies.
So depending on your cats sensitivity, you will see for yourself overtime.

EDIT: It's probably a good idea not to store leftover cat food in it's original can, transfer it to a plastic or even better, glass sealed container.