1/4 Rocket PM BG 101-NS/still not eating

well last night he ate about half hr after the bupre dose....but that was that....

he didn't go under the bed as we totally blocked it....he slept on his bed....so i fell asleep and got up in the wee hrs....to see if he had eaten but nothing...not a drop or lick of food :sad:

i tried assist feeding but nothing worked....

so what would have been his amps...actually his AM BG at 140...still no shot until vet gives me report on pheno levels

here is yesterday viewtopic.php?f=9&t=33505

i gave fluids shortly after testing.....then +0.5 he got the pheno....he seemed a lil restless which is not the norm with the pheno...but then slept prob 20 mins....then i offered baby food only and he proceeded to eat....i spoon fed him the baby food...he didn't want the mix of gravy/baby food/liver dust that had worked last night...so he ate almost half the jar....almost!

then he groomed/licked for a good 10 mins....then it was time for his bupre...i gave 0.35 .....he is not hiding...so far....he got up to go to his litter box....now he is on the floor all belly up relaxed close to my feet by the kitchen table....

i slept so so...off and on but had some sleep....was hoping to this morning but him being out of the room i'd like to keep a close eye on him....

he had been lip smacking at the vet's yesterday and i knew i had to get the zofran in...as he only got the night time dose....he never got the one in the morning as he was at the vet's.....hope this morning goes better with the eating part.....zofran should be in place in 1 hr....then all meds are in until the afternoon....

he is well hydrated....meds in tummy....hope all goes well the rest of the morning.... @-) nailbite_smile

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS

I think we're all breathing a little easier with you.

If I'm remembering correctly, I don't think the larger dose of bupe provides greater pain relief. Rather, I think it extends the duration of the pain relief. If I can find some documentation, I'll get it to you. Unfortunately, I don't have time right now to track the info down.

Will the vet have results for you today?

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS

I'm glad that he ate for you this morning, Claudia. I hope he feels better and better now. Not a bad BG for no insulin, you have to do what you have to do regarding balancing all his issues. I'm sure he will get back on track just fine once he is feeling better and everything gets sorted out. Do you know when you will get the results on the pheno levels?

I'm very glad to hear that you got some sleep, you sound much calmer today! You've been through the wringer the last several days, please try to take care of yourself. :YMHUG:

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS

Claudia, I'm glad to hear that Rocket is eating better and it sounds like he's feeling better. We will continue to send healing vines and prayers for Rocket. I'm also glad you got some sleep too. :YMHUG: :YMHUG:

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS

More vines and white light for Rocket , but it is so good to hear that he is eating more. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS

Good morning guys! So glad to hear rocket ate on his own .. I hope the vet get's back to you soon with results so you can figure out where to go next .. sending vines and prayers your way ....

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS

That sounds good: "now he is on the floor all belly up relaxed close to my feet by the kitchen table...." It's good that you were able to sleep a little too...

When is the vet supposed to get back to you with the results?

Sending feel better vines and prayers for Rocket and you.

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS

Morning Claudia so happy he ate almost a half of jar of baby food ;-) sending more healing vines and snowflakes today for him

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**

Rocket....... EAT rocket...
~sigh~
Any more word from your vet?

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**

after all the meds in place he does not want to eat...not even the baby food

finished syringe feeding 22 cc of clinicare with 1/8 of his FF reg food....

will syringe feed some more in a lil bit here

he will get full dose of the bupre this afternoon.....i did not give it to him this morning....too much going on as we speak here at home....folks getting ready to leave...i have to drop them off at the airport shortly after Rocket gets his bupre....so hopefully the quiet and peace while we are away will be ok for him....

i am allowing him to hide under the bed and have some rest....after i posted this morning i tried for him to eat to no avail....then i figured i need for all meds to fully kick in....so i took him to bed with me and he slept and so did i (sort of)....

though i'm sad to see my folks go and sad we didn't spend much time together....i think i will have less stress (sort of) not dealing with them here at home and fully concentrating on Rocket....

called in vet to give full report....she is in the OR....so the vet tech said results could be in tomorrow....so for sure NOT today....

cypro not in place as of yet....waiting until place is cleared and see if he wants to eat....on his own....with no stimulant...

he wanted to go out though....but i didn't let him....

oh so very upsetting.....but i got some food in him...and will continue to do it until he does it on his own...have not tested his BG....

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**

Thinking about you and Rocket today and hoping he begins to eat again soon. I'm glad you will have a little less stress around the home and maybe both you and Rocket will get some much needed rest.

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**

I've been following your ordeal Claudia, but haven't commented. Always thinking of you two and sending positive energy and healing vines and everything I can muster up for you two tho. Hopefully the house calming down and getting back to normal will help Rocket (and you) rest more, relax more and feel better.

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**

still sending healthy thoughts and please-eat wishes your way, Claudia...hang in there rocket!

celi & binks

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**

glad to hear you managed some sleep even if it was a little. I think being able to concentrate soley on Rocket now will help ease some of the stress for you. My prayers are with you

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**

More healing vines and snowflakes. Come on Rocket....you need to eat for your mamabean. Claudia...please be sure you are taking care of yourself, too....eating, sleeping when you can. Sending all our thoughts and prayers your way.

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**

Stress goes away. That's my wish for you for today. Also add: Rocket eats. Come on, Rocket, you can do it!

Claudia, hang in there. Too bad you didn't get to have the visit you had hoped for with your parents, but I'm sure they understand. Things will settle down now. And we're sending vines, etc. for a good report from the vet tomorrow.

Hugs,
Ella & Rusty

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**update

i syringe fed him another 18 cc of the same mix
got a call from vet tech saying they want to add Cerenia to him...so another med into his system
vet believes it may be a pancreatitis flare up along with the pheno levels being low....they're trying to save me some money so they said the bupre in full dose to be given and Cerenia along with zofran and cypro to be given....if things don't get better then they will send to get the fPLI done as they collected enough blood yesterday

so far as of today the urine culture shows negative so they will continue to grow it and will let me know tomorrow on that

the pheno levels could be in on thursday....so it's a matter of waiting....

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS**not eating**update

Claudia - belly up made me smile. That would be a good sign.

I'm concerned about the cypro though. Being on the assist feeding group for over two years now I wonder if you should just assist feed for a few more days before you tack this on. It has a lot of side effects in itself which may make trouble shooting a bit more difficult. Its normally recommended for cats that have some appetite on their own first. So what I'm saying is if you can hold off a few days before adding this to the mix and keep up syringe feeding, I'd do that. Then when you get a baseline for everything else that you add, maybe add this in if he still isnt eating.

More hugs for you and Rocket.

Re: 1/4 Rocket AM BG 140-NS

Sienne and Gabby said:

If I'm remembering correctly, I don't think the larger dose of bupe provides greater pain relief. Rather, I think it extends the duration of the pain relief. If I can find some documentation, I'll get it to you. Unfortunately, I don't have time right now to track the info down.

Click to expand...

Sienne is correct. A larger dose extends the duration of pain relief, but not the level of pain relief. In my experience, however, a larger dose will significantly increase the level of sedation. The quote below is from this link: http://www.vasg.org/chronic_pain_management.htm

Partial mu agonists bind at the mu receptors but only partially activate them. Buprenorphine (CIII) is the prototypical drug in this class; it’s moderately expensive but VERY safe, producing few side effects and minimal sedation. Buprenorphine has tremendous affinity for the mu receptors, and will competitively inhibit pure mu agonists from binding. This property makes it useful for “reversing” the effects of morphine or fentanyl if adverse consequences arise, while still maintaining a level of analgesia.

A ceiling effect on analgesia exists with partial agonists, making them less useful for severe pain. Buprenorphine is interesting in that increasing the dose prolongs the duration of analgesia, while the degree of pain relief remains essentially unchanged. Doses of 30 ug/kg (0.030 mg/kg) will provide ~ 8-10 hours of analgesia, and 40 ug/kg (0.040 mg/kg) may produce as much as 12 hours of pain control. The onset of action is fairly slow (~ 30 minutes when given IV, 60 minutes IM, transmucosal or transdermal).

Buprenorphine is not available as an oral preparation (significant first-pass effect renders it inactive), but its lipophilic nature lends itself to absorption across skin or mucous membranes. Compounding pharmacies can produce a PLO (pleuronic lecithin organogel, or transdermal gel) for application on the inner surface of the pinna or shaved skin on the neck in dogs and cats. Alternatively, the alkaline salivary pH of cats allows for excellent transmucosal absorption when the injectable drug is given in the mouth (it should not be mixed with flavored syrups, as swallowing will inactivate it; the injectable form is tasteless and well-tolerated by cats). No studies have been performed on transmucosal usage in dogs, though the pH of their saliva is closer to that of humans, where bioavailability after mucosal administration is only ~ 30%.

Re: 1/4 Rocket PM BG 101-NS but ?? on Cerenia

he ate a lil bit on his own at 12:45 then again at 3 pm...but not a lot....on his own while ib rought the food to him where he was under the bed....

he's been lip smacking a bit and so the vet wants him on Cerenia rather than Zofran....
i dropped off my parents at the airport and headed to the clinic to get the med ....the Rx is 16 mg tablets...to give 1/2 tablet by mouth every 24 hrs for 5 days....stop for 2 days then repeat cycle...

he weighs 7.13 kgs...is this dose ok or too much?
would like to give but not sure how to space it out between pheno and buprenorphine...
anyone with experience with these drugs? i posted in health

currently he is pawing at his food....it's pretty soupy...gravy with baby food with reg food and some canned pumpkin (the latter in the hopes he doesn't get plugged up from the bupre)....it's giving him something to do...

i was worried while i left him home soon after dosing the bupre....but when i came home i found him on his bed and i proceeded to test his bg

what would have been his pmps is 101...still no insulin

vet tech said pheno levels were in but vet will chat with me tomorrow (she was already gone)...and vet tech was not at liberty to say as the vet needs to tell me what's up...

so no cypro so far....i have only used it twice since he was Rx with CRF May 2008....and i gave less then 1/8 of a tablet....so he has had his spells of not eating...it's part of CRF...but i rather syringe feed and i can stay up all night doing that than to give cypro....thanks Karrie for bringing that up....it's good for those out there that may one day need that info....

he's still pawing away at his food....alert....eeye dilated...a bit wonky....shaky....this time i think cause he is high from the bupre (he got the dose 2 hrs ago).....

Re: 1/4 Rocket PM BG 101-NS but ? re:Cerenia??

Hi Claudia,
First Im glad you were able to get ROcket into your vet yesterday. SOunds like you have a great vet who knows both you and Rocket well. It sounds like you are also getting a little more rest. Hopefully Rocket is too.

Regarding the cerenia. Its typically used for vomiting. I used it regularly on Latte for her severe vomiting episodes and it did a wonderful job stopping them. I gave 1/4- 1/3 of a 16mg pill. It was always a few days on (3 I think) and 5 days off. I see a lot of people recently giving it 5 days and 3 off. Sometimes I gave it longer. That was a choice I made in the best interest of Latte w/ approval from her vet once I understood why its recommended to take a break. I always found injectible much more effective. She had some major absorption issues, tho. There was a great article a while back suggesting that a higher dose (1/3 of 16mg) when used in pill form was more effective than the standard 1/4 pill (4mg). I went that route when I used the pill form.

Ive always been told not to wrap it in anything (pill pocket, gel cap, etc) because it wont absorb as well in the system. It tastes horrible, too. So be quick with it.

I cant comment on spacing it with any of the other meds, sorry. Not much is known about cerenia and its long term use in cats. Unless something new has come out in the last 6 months or so.

It was one of the meds I was least fearful of using and found it to be very effective. It didnt necessarily make her want to eat. It just stopped the vomiting. I didnt stop the ondansetron (zofran) or pepcid while she was on a cerenia run.

Re: 1/4 Rocket PM BG 101-NS but ? re:Cerenia??

carolynandlatte said:

Ive always been told not to wrap it in anything (pill pocket, gel cap, etc) because it wont absorb as well in the system. It tastes horrible, too. So be quick with it.

I didnt stop the ondansetron (zofran) or pepcid while she was on a cerenia run.

Click to expand...

Carolyn,
so dabbing it into a lil pill pocket (not the whole pocket) is no good? what about dabbing a lil butter to help it go down? i always give a lil water to make sure it goes down....so if no pill pocket or butter then just water?

the vet tech was reading the vet's instructions to me...so it said no zofran but yes to zantac...no to Denosyl still until bupre no longer given....i can't call now as they're closed....so giving both zofran and cerenia is ok?

he's been lip smacking and not really interested in food...licks it then stops....since he is high he doesn't really walk away...and sits by his water supply...so i know he is nauseaus so the zofran is not working....he has not thrown up as of yet....fingers crossed!

Re: 1/4 Rocket PM BG 101-NS but ? re:Cerenia??

I used the ondansetron 2x/day, pepcid 2x/day or ranitidine 3x/day + cerenia 1x/day (during extreme bouts of vomiting).

I did end up wrapping the pill in the thinnest layer possible of pill pocket because I could not afford to keep having her spit it up and disinigrate. This was another reason I used the injection more often.

I was going to post in health, but lost my curser ( confused_cat confused_cat ). Its back now :lol: . Girlcat was correct, it IS used off label in cats here in the U.S (meaning its not approved for use in cats). I do believe Canada is the same, but you would have to search. I suspect all the meds you use on rocket are not approved for cats. I dont think that is what should be the deciding factor. The deciding factor is whether or not it will help, what are the risks, and is it worth it? Thats an individual question for each pet owner.

Cerenia is not a replacement for ondansetron. It should be a supplement to put a major halt on vomiting, not necessarily general nausea.

been assist feeding...thought he would have eaten lots when he was pawing at the mix i gave him....but he didn't eat much then...so i decided to syringe feed him and not much luck...

zofran was given

cerenia given 5 mins ago as he has been by the water bowl for the last 10 mins....licks food then walks away.

so hopefully it will kick in...zofran was given 1 1/2 hrs ago...evidently not working....zantac and pheno given 2 1/2 hrs ago....

so we shall see what will work....

we have officially blocked access for him under the bed....he has been out and about but mainly sticking to the bathroom....not sleeping really

this is oh sooooo very concerning and tiring....

next bupre dose is 2 1/2 hrs.....

i don't know what to make of it...typing an email to vet now....

Claudia,
SOmething to put in your memory bank, as right now might not be the greatest time to make numerous changes to meds.
Latte was on pepcid for about a year after her ARF. Once she started vomiting white foam a lot more, I did some research and switched to ranitidine (which rocket is on, right?). This was actually dosed THREE times/day- Every 8hrs. It was a grueling schedule because you really cant give it in increments less than 8hrs. Only giving it twice/day didnt work. It wore off and obviously affected appetite, nausea, and vomiting. After probly a year of this she kept vomiting white foam again, but renal values werent changing. Certainly could have been a number of issues with her. Her 'new' vet was fond of pepcid and highly recommended we switch back. Reluctantly I did, because I didnt know what else to do. Bingo! It helped. I stuck with that for the remainder of her life, as I never felt an urgency from her symptoms to switch back.

So...consider asking your vet and researching about giving the ranitidine 3x/day vs 2 (which sounds like what you do). But also know it is a grueling schedule doing it this way (8am 4pm 12am, for us). Do consider switching to pepcid, if ranitidine is not working.

How often do you give the ondansetron out of curiousity?

My other thought is on the hiding. After Latte's ARF I had to ban closets. I felt bad, but I couldnt get her meds in. Then she discovered going under my roommates bed. GRRRRRRR. When I moved to a different place I strategically closed off places where she could hide and I could not get her for meds unless adding undue stress. I made places she could hide, that would be easy for me to monitor and medicate her. She found some reasonable places on her own as well. This could be as simple as some sort of 'tent' made with a blanket in your room. Basicallly its respecting their need to hide and/or rest in a 'safe' spot, but make it easily accesible to watch and help them.

Hope your evening improves. And I hope your vet has some good thoughts for you once the labs come in. Maybe it will end up being a few simple tweaks with medications.

claudia, you're getting a lot of good advice from people like carolyn who have had similar experiences with these meds. i just wanted to stop by to lend support in the way of prayers and positive thoughts. thinking of you...

(((((hugs)))))

Carolyn
Rocket was on pepcid but it was not working...he's been on zantac for over a yr now...the pepcid was short lived and he was getting 1/4 pill bid similar to zantac...
ondansetron is bid as well...1/4 pill so basically 1 mg each time
been syringe feeding all night....
he has a tent in the living room...and he has used it when he wants to nap while we watch tv....he has not had any interest in it...he also has Comet's crate in the closet so he can go there....but he has not shown any interest at all....for whatever reason being under the bed has been his comfort this time around....
i'm really tired...he is getting the bupre in 10 mins...seems like the Rx dose has not allowed him to sleep (unless cats sleep with their eyes open and i did ask the vet and she said NO that's not the case) so i gather he is high....
will reduse the dose to the one he got yesterday....0.35 instead of the 0.52 for the bupre....

this is really tiring...and hopefully i can get some answers tomorrow....

will email vet some time in the wee hrs when i'm up with Rocket....off to give med and to syringe feed if he won't eat on his own... :YMSIGH: