Frankie 4.24 PMPS 221
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D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152
I was reading last night's condo. It is true that you shoot low to stay low but that is once the cat has settled into a predictable dose. IMO Frankie's dose should be reduced to 2.25u. Maybe I am wrong but weren't there some none +12 shots done? I don't see them noted on SS, it is very important to note late shots. A series of delayed shots or skipped shots on a particular dose is a call for a reduction. My guess is he went green again PM 4/22, gave a bounce that may have made you think he should stay at the 2.5u, bounce cleared, this cyclic pattern is going to show up again, possibly today, possibly tomorrow, leaving you once again with a number you are not comfortable shooting.
I was reading last night's condo. It is true that you shoot low to stay low but that is once the cat has settled into a predictable dose. IMO Frankie's dose should be reduced to 2.25u. Maybe I am wrong but weren't there some none +12 shots done? I don't see them noted on SS, it is very important to note late shots. A series of delayed shots or skipped shots on a particular dose is a call for a reduction. My guess is he went green again PM 4/22, gave a bounce that may have made you think he should stay at the 2.5u, bounce cleared, this cyclic pattern is going to show up again, possibly today, possibly tomorrow, leaving you once again with a number you are not comfortable shooting.
Hillary & Maui (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152
Jay,
If you want to see an example of shooting low and staying low - take a look at Maui's ss. While I shot lower doses than you are, the point is, I shot her at much lower numbers than you are at with Frankie. And it's almost 1 year that she is OTJ as a result of following the guidance from this board.
So, put on your big boy pants and get the cojones in gear and shoot him! You can do it, we know you can. And we will help guide you along.
So, far this am, he's looking good. Which means, in order to maintain it, you will need to shoot him tonight.
Jay,
If you want to see an example of shooting low and staying low - take a look at Maui's ss. While I shot lower doses than you are, the point is, I shot her at much lower numbers than you are at with Frankie. And it's almost 1 year that she is OTJ as a result of following the guidance from this board.
So, put on your big boy pants and get the cojones in gear and shoot him! You can do it, we know you can. And we will help guide you along.
So, far this am, he's looking good. Which means, in order to maintain it, you will need to shoot him tonight.
Marvie and Tugger
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122
Dooooooo Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet Jay! I know you can do it! You'll have great backup with you tonight, just have some high carb on hand and just be ready. Being prepared, knowing what to expect, knowing there are people here to help you through it (it is scary, but you'll be watching and gently guiding him back up) is a whole lot better than having it happen out of the blue when no one is online and you haven't stocked up on essentials. Look how many times D and Jill and Libby and the rest have walked people through this. You're in an area where you can get emergency help if it's needed, but I doubt it will be, and you know these folks wouldn't hesitate to tell you to "Get thee to the vet right now" if the situation called for it. It sounds like everything is lined up for you to shoot low and be safe and be supported. You obviously have to do what you're comfortable doing, so if you're just not ready then you're not ready and that's ok... but Frankie may be ready and he may force the issue pretty soon.
The last thing I will say is that after handling it a couple of times, I felt confident that I could take care of whatever came up and knew what food would work best to bring him back up. I still asked before shooting low for a while, but knowing someone was around to back me up helped me feel ok to do that. Once you go through it a few times you will learn how Frankie responds and you can prepare for work days when you can't be there to stick his ear every hour or two. (Timed feeder when you have to be out?)
Dooooooo Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet Jay! I know you can do it! You'll have great backup with you tonight, just have some high carb on hand and just be ready. Being prepared, knowing what to expect, knowing there are people here to help you through it (it is scary, but you'll be watching and gently guiding him back up) is a whole lot better than having it happen out of the blue when no one is online and you haven't stocked up on essentials. Look how many times D and Jill and Libby and the rest have walked people through this. You're in an area where you can get emergency help if it's needed, but I doubt it will be, and you know these folks wouldn't hesitate to tell you to "Get thee to the vet right now" if the situation called for it. It sounds like everything is lined up for you to shoot low and be safe and be supported. You obviously have to do what you're comfortable doing, so if you're just not ready then you're not ready and that's ok... but Frankie may be ready and he may force the issue pretty soon.
The last thing I will say is that after handling it a couple of times, I felt confident that I could take care of whatever came up and knew what food would work best to bring him back up. I still asked before shooting low for a while, but knowing someone was around to back me up helped me feel ok to do that. Once you go through it a few times you will learn how Frankie responds and you can prepare for work days when you can't be there to stick his ear every hour or two. (Timed feeder when you have to be out?)
Jay
Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122
Sorry if I sound a little testy here,. I'm not in the best frame of mind as I just brough home Chubby's ashes.
I'm not concerned about bringing out of a hypo (karo and high carb dry is always on hand, so are basters to force feed him if neccesary) I'm concerned about the size of the dose and at what BG to shoot at. Is 2.5 too much at what BG? Is 2.25 too little at what BG? Is 2.0 the right dose at what BG? I dont care about the time, that should be obvious based on how long I have been waiting to dose him. I also dont care about a strict 12/12 because the protocol makes no room for living breathing creatures, who may eat, may not, may throw up, may not, the protocol is only numbers on a spread sheet.
I'm not going to shoot at under 180. I find it difficult to swallow, that people here give a cat insulin when they dont need it. At BG's between 60 and 120 (normal non diabetic numbers). I dont care if he ever walks away from needing insulin, so long as he is still walking.
Right now, I know, that no matter what his PS' are 2.5 will do the trick whether it be one or 2 cycles later and waiting to shoot I have avoided sending him into a severe rebound by loading him up on HC and Karo because he is tanking. Is shooting at 150 or lower a dose of 2.5 (which drops him nicely, see todays numbers) going to give me a flat curve and above a nadir of 50 to 60. Its all guess work.
Marvie and Tugger said:
Sorry if I sound a little testy here,. I'm not in the best frame of mind as I just brough home Chubby's ashes.
I'm not concerned about bringing out of a hypo (karo and high carb dry is always on hand, so are basters to force feed him if neccesary) I'm concerned about the size of the dose and at what BG to shoot at. Is 2.5 too much at what BG? Is 2.25 too little at what BG? Is 2.0 the right dose at what BG? I dont care about the time, that should be obvious based on how long I have been waiting to dose him. I also dont care about a strict 12/12 because the protocol makes no room for living breathing creatures, who may eat, may not, may throw up, may not, the protocol is only numbers on a spread sheet.
I'm not going to shoot at under 180. I find it difficult to swallow, that people here give a cat insulin when they dont need it. At BG's between 60 and 120 (normal non diabetic numbers). I dont care if he ever walks away from needing insulin, so long as he is still walking.
Right now, I know, that no matter what his PS' are 2.5 will do the trick whether it be one or 2 cycles later and waiting to shoot I have avoided sending him into a severe rebound by loading him up on HC and Karo because he is tanking. Is shooting at 150 or lower a dose of 2.5 (which drops him nicely, see todays numbers) going to give me a flat curve and above a nadir of 50 to 60. Its all guess work.
Caryl & Sebastian & Alex (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122
The research WAS done on cats so I dare to say that yes, the protocol does take living, breathing creatures into consideration
Back to my previously scheduled migraine.
Jay said:
The research WAS done on cats so I dare to say that yes, the protocol does take living, breathing creatures into consideration
Back to my previously scheduled migraine.
Jay
Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113
Here were are a little past +8 looking at the PM cycle and planning on what to do.
I have seen a trend that he drops at the end of the cycle, +10 thur +11 and I do expect that to occur, but who knows it may not and his true nadir was a +6 when he was at 112.
So, at +12 I expect him to be either below 100 or somewhere above 100. Not by much.
Now what? I've been gun shy at dosing him under 180 at 2.5. I'm not concerned about bringing him out of a "hypo" situation, I'd rather not put him there in the first place.
How much of a dose reduction should I use, at what PS BG?
Should I feed at +10 and then shoot at +12, ( I wont be able to do that during the week) and if I do the above question is still in play or is it?
He has been reacting very well to 2.5 units for the past few weeks. On some days when I dosed him at over 300, he dropped almost 200 points or so and we got over 14 hours or so of duration, A bit scarey at this point for me to shoot that same does at much lower BGs. Although today he only dropped by 120 or so.
As you can see, I have far to many questions that I need to answer to be able to shoot at low levels at +12 and beyond.
Thoughts?
Here were are a little past +8 looking at the PM cycle and planning on what to do.
I have seen a trend that he drops at the end of the cycle, +10 thur +11 and I do expect that to occur, but who knows it may not and his true nadir was a +6 when he was at 112.
So, at +12 I expect him to be either below 100 or somewhere above 100. Not by much.
Now what? I've been gun shy at dosing him under 180 at 2.5. I'm not concerned about bringing him out of a "hypo" situation, I'd rather not put him there in the first place.
How much of a dose reduction should I use, at what PS BG?
Should I feed at +10 and then shoot at +12, ( I wont be able to do that during the week) and if I do the above question is still in play or is it?
He has been reacting very well to 2.5 units for the past few weeks. On some days when I dosed him at over 300, he dropped almost 200 points or so and we got over 14 hours or so of duration, A bit scarey at this point for me to shoot that same does at much lower BGs. Although today he only dropped by 120 or so.
As you can see, I have far to many questions that I need to answer to be able to shoot at low levels at +12 and beyond.
Thoughts?
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122
If your theory of not needing to shoot a 12/12 (or close) schedule was working for you, then you would not be seeing the BG 348, 305,334, 341, 348, 320 that you got in the last 5 days. In other words, it is not working for Frankie. You mention not wanting to send him into rebound from loading him up with HC -- yet you are sending him into unnecessary higher numbers (300s) by not shooting consistently. I understand the differences in comparing the two scenarios -- you are fearful of the rebound because he went low and that is too dangerous for your comfort level. If you don't want to shoot for remission you don't have to -- there is no rule here about that.
I tried to state above but think I made it clear. I am NOT in agreement here or last night that you should have shot low. What I was trying to say is Frankie's dose is too high to implement shoot low to stay low -- the duration of his shots tells me that. I'm not sure how many times I have suggested it but I think three -- his dose needs to be reduced to 2.25u. He may not be long at that dose either -- he IS moving down the dose ladder. Once they start that we should be their best supporter. I see no reason why Frankie could not go into remission.
I'm glad you got to bring Chubby home today. You know what I mean -- not glad that what happened happened but that his ashes are in his home now.
If your theory of not needing to shoot a 12/12 (or close) schedule was working for you, then you would not be seeing the BG 348, 305,334, 341, 348, 320 that you got in the last 5 days. In other words, it is not working for Frankie. You mention not wanting to send him into rebound from loading him up with HC -- yet you are sending him into unnecessary higher numbers (300s) by not shooting consistently. I understand the differences in comparing the two scenarios -- you are fearful of the rebound because he went low and that is too dangerous for your comfort level. If you don't want to shoot for remission you don't have to -- there is no rule here about that.
I tried to state above but think I made it clear. I am NOT in agreement here or last night that you should have shot low. What I was trying to say is Frankie's dose is too high to implement shoot low to stay low -- the duration of his shots tells me that. I'm not sure how many times I have suggested it but I think three -- his dose needs to be reduced to 2.25u. He may not be long at that dose either -- he IS moving down the dose ladder. Once they start that we should be their best supporter. I see no reason why Frankie could not go into remission.
I'm glad you got to bring Chubby home today. You know what I mean -- not glad that what happened happened but that his ashes are in his home now.
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113
Jay said:
Libby and Lucy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113
I agree with D. It's fine if you don't want to shoot under 180, but you still want to shoot at +12 so the way to accomplish both goals is to reduce the dose to 2.25. Let's see if that flattens him out, it should bring the low numbers up a little bit (leaving him shootable at +12) AND hopefully bring the high numbers down by allowing you to shoot every 12 hours without stalling.
2.5 WAS a good dose for Frankie, but it's not anymore, at least not for your goals. 2.25 should be better, and if it's not then we try 2.0. Frankie is changing, and that's a good thing. :smile:
I agree with D. It's fine if you don't want to shoot under 180, but you still want to shoot at +12 so the way to accomplish both goals is to reduce the dose to 2.25. Let's see if that flattens him out, it should bring the low numbers up a little bit (leaving him shootable at +12) AND hopefully bring the high numbers down by allowing you to shoot every 12 hours without stalling.
2.5 WAS a good dose for Frankie, but it's not anymore, at least not for your goals. 2.25 should be better, and if it's not then we try 2.0. Frankie is changing, and that's a good thing. :smile:
Libby and Lucy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113
that's fine, I just think that 2.25 will bring him closer to your ceiling more often. I'm not trying to make you shoot at numbers you're not comfortable with, I'm trying to get Frankie to be at those numbers more consistently. Does that make sense?
And then yes, if on 2.25 he's still running too low for you to comfortably shoot at +12, then we reduce to 2.0.
that's fine, I just think that 2.25 will bring him closer to your ceiling more often. I'm not trying to make you shoot at numbers you're not comfortable with, I'm trying to get Frankie to be at those numbers more consistently. Does that make sense?
And then yes, if on 2.25 he's still running too low for you to comfortably shoot at +12, then we reduce to 2.0.
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113
Can we reduce ceiling a lil' more -- he might not hit 160 for hours?
The 2u reduction will cover you to shoot a lower ceiling number -- how about BG 125-135? It is Saturday -- you are home, yes?
You have combo platters available. Wait and shoot or shoot lower dose earlier.
Can we reduce ceiling a lil' more -- he might not hit 160 for hours?
The 2u reduction will cover you to shoot a lower ceiling number -- how about BG 125-135? It is Saturday -- you are home, yes?
You have combo platters available. Wait and shoot or shoot lower dose earlier.
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113
If you do end up hooting 2u go back to 2.25u in the morning. I wouldn't screw around with waiting on numbers for doing that -- timing is very important in this game.
If you shoot 2u, numbers can look good, shed is depleting some, your duration will be less, so you will want to shoot relatively close to +12 tomorrow am. Frankie has a paw right over the line of too much insulin at 2.5u. Meaning the 2.25u should do you guys very nicely IF you can be consistent and shoot without too much delaying. We just have to see how fast he wants to go down the dose ladder.
I'll answer your post on the next one.
If you do end up hooting 2u go back to 2.25u in the morning. I wouldn't screw around with waiting on numbers for doing that -- timing is very important in this game.
If you shoot 2u, numbers can look good, shed is depleting some, your duration will be less, so you will want to shoot relatively close to +12 tomorrow am. Frankie has a paw right over the line of too much insulin at 2.5u. Meaning the 2.25u should do you guys very nicely IF you can be consistent and shoot without too much delaying. We just have to see how fast he wants to go down the dose ladder.
I'll answer your post on the next one.
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113
Jay said:
Miriam and Putty (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +2 152 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113 +10 90
This is a really nice curve.
Nope you are not driving anyone here nuts....most of us have been there and still are. This is all about keeping Frankie in good numbers and keeping you comfortable doing so.
I am also glad that you could bring Chubby's ashes home. I know it must be hard for you.
This is a really nice curve.
Nope you are not driving anyone here nuts....most of us have been there and still are. This is all about keeping Frankie in good numbers and keeping you comfortable doing so.
I am also glad that you could bring Chubby's ashes home. I know it must be hard for you.
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113 +10 90 +12 87
It's fine to stall. Just don't feed. Retest in 30 min. and hopefully Frankie's numbers will be on the way up.
Once numbers are rising, remember, you are shooting a number that is roughly 2 hours from your shot time when Lantus onset starts. The goal is for you to be comfortable and for Frankie to be getting his shots as close to 12/12 as possible so there is consistency at an effective dose.
It's fine to stall. Just don't feed. Retest in 30 min. and hopefully Frankie's numbers will be on the way up.
Once numbers are rising, remember, you are shooting a number that is roughly 2 hours from your shot time when Lantus onset starts. The goal is for you to be comfortable and for Frankie to be getting his shots as close to 12/12 as possible so there is consistency at an effective dose.
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113 +10 90 +12 87
When you go back to work what schedule do you need to be on? Do you need to move ahead +#?hr or back +#?hr.
I'm trying to come up with a plan that has you able to reduce dose to 2.25u tomorrow by shooting a BCS dose tonight but want to weigh out if his shot time needs to move backward or forward for work week. Does that make sense? We want to calculate the best way to get him a reduced shot but not wait a full 12 hours to do it.
When you go back to work what schedule do you need to be on? Do you need to move ahead +#?hr or back +#?hr.
I'm trying to come up with a plan that has you able to reduce dose to 2.25u tomorrow by shooting a BCS dose tonight but want to weigh out if his shot time needs to move backward or forward for work week. Does that make sense? We want to calculate the best way to get him a reduced shot but not wait a full 12 hours to do it.
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113 +10 90 +12 87
I'm signing back off verra soon.
If you shot at +14 last night that means you can move back at least 2 hours right?
If you can move back even more than that (4hrs instead of 2hrs) then you might opt for shooting 2.25u at +20.
The only reason I suggest this over waiting for the rise and shooting is that this way gets you back on a schedule that would work better with work.
I'm signing back off verra soon.
If you shot at +14 last night that means you can move back at least 2 hours right?
If you can move back even more than that (4hrs instead of 2hrs) then you might opt for shooting 2.25u at +20.
The only reason I suggest this over waiting for the rise and shooting is that this way gets you back on a schedule that would work better with work.
Jay
Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113 +10 90 +12 87
Well, typically I leave here at 6:45 AM, however Monday I will be working part of the day from home, and then have to catch a flight to DC. I will be returning Tuesday evening about 10 PM.
He will be taken care of while I am gone.
Its catch 6:45Am to 7 Am bus, and back here in the evening by 6PM.
I missed his big rise, and caught him at 224 and gave him a 2.25 dose.
D and Noisy said:
Well, typically I leave here at 6:45 AM, however Monday I will be working part of the day from home, and then have to catch a flight to DC. I will be returning Tuesday evening about 10 PM.
He will be taken care of while I am gone.
Its catch 6:45Am to 7 Am bus, and back here in the evening by 6PM.
I missed his big rise, and caught him at 224 and gave him a 2.25 dose.
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
Re: Frankie 4.24 AMPS 234 +4 122 +6 112 +8 113 +10 90 +12 87
Oh, so you shot tonight yes?
Oh, so you shot tonight yes?
D and Noisy
Very Active Member
OK, great I can see you did shoot.
Off I go then -- was trying to hang in a little longer for Mr. Frankie.
So happy he has 2.25u in him. On to the next decrease he goes.
Off I go then -- was trying to hang in a little longer for Mr. Frankie.
So happy he has 2.25u in him. On to the next decrease he goes.
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