My cat was diagnosed with diabetes about 5 weeks ago. He was at the vet for a total of 8 days for his glucose curve. He is on Pro Zinc recombinant human insulin for cats, however it is an enormous dose. He is now on 11 units twice a day. He seems to be doing great. He has gained some needed weight and seems to be getting back to his normal activities. The vet is going to test his glucose level again this afternoon (this will be the 5th time since I brought him home). I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of using such high doses of insulin in a cat and if maybe another insulin may work better for him or require less dosage. Thanks!
High Dosage of Pro Zinc Insulin
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tuckers mom
Very Active Member
11 Units BID (twice per day) is high for any insulin when it's only been five weeks. There are conditions such as our Acromegaly or Cushings where the cats need more insulin, but I believe, and hopefully others will correct me if I'm wrong, I believe it takes time to work up to the higher doses.
If it were my cat, I'd want to hometest so I could see how my cat is doing in a stress free environment and I could test at different times during the day to see how effective the insulin is.
There are times when giving too much insulin the liver will produce more glucose to protect the cat from having a hypoglycemic episode.
How long has your kitty been getting 11U BID? Did it start lower and gradually increase over the 5 weeks?
Was your cat actually at the vet for 8 straight days during the curve? That could have been a very stressful time for your kitty and produced high blood sugar from the stress.
What is your kitty eating? Dry food, canned food?
If it were my cat, I'd want to hometest so I could see how my cat is doing in a stress free environment and I could test at different times during the day to see how effective the insulin is.
There are times when giving too much insulin the liver will produce more glucose to protect the cat from having a hypoglycemic episode.
How long has your kitty been getting 11U BID? Did it start lower and gradually increase over the 5 weeks?
Was your cat actually at the vet for 8 straight days during the curve? That could have been a very stressful time for your kitty and produced high blood sugar from the stress.
What is your kitty eating? Dry food, canned food?
Nicole and Napoleon
Very Active Member
My cat was diagnosed in December and was put on the compounded version of ProZinc. He was up to 6 units only once a day, but this produced hypo numbers in him and dropped his sugar way too quickly. Then we had to start over on a twice a day schedule with 2 units and that did not do the trick. I heard good things about BCP PZI and so I asked to switch to that. I was told that lower doses have more of an effect. He has been on the BCP since 4/15 and we have slowly worked up to 2.5 twice a day. He is still adjusting, but it seems to be heading in the right direction. My guy is 17 pounds. How much does your kitty weigh? 11 units seems like a very very high dose and ProZinc does have a history of producing hypoglycemia. I would also think 8 days in not enough time to work up to 11 units - he is basically getting 22 units of insulin per day. Are there any other health issues? I know some cats get high doses due Acromegaly, which is a pituitary disorder. Have you gotten a second opinion? All of this aside. I am glad to hear your kitty is doing well 
Jen & Squeak
Very Active Member
I'll be more blunt than the other Jennifer lol
That is an insane dose, and unless there are highly unusual mitigating circumstances, this route could kill your cat. Period.
Please, come back with more info.
Jen
That is an insane dose, and unless there are highly unusual mitigating circumstances, this route could kill your cat. Period.
Please, come back with more info.
Jen
Phoebe_TiggyGA_NortonGA
Very Active Member
That is a very high dosage for a newly diagnosed cat, however I will say I have not used the new Pro Zinc insulin.
The risk of having the dosage determined during a vet clinic stay -- your cat is probably stressed out and upset at the clinic, and so the blood sugar is unnaturally high due to stress.
When you get him home in his comfy environment, now the stress-dose is way too much insulin and your cat's blood sugar drops very low.
We highly recommend learning to test your kitty's blood sugar at home using a regular human glucometer (choose one that is "approved for alternate site testing" and/or has "sipping action strips" and needs a tiny amount of blood, like 0.3 microliters)
The test strips are the biggest expense, so check the prices when choosing a meter. Most of us test twice per day - before every shot, and occasional spot checks at other times.
Using a lancet (like a pin in a bit of plastic), we poke the edge of the ear for a tiny blood sample.
Gotta run for now (at work)
p.s. we consider a safe rate of dose increase to be +1 unit BID per week.
My Norton had Acromegaly -- a brain tumor caused his diabetes. He got 13 units BID at his highest point -- and it took over 3 months to reach that dose -- testing and increasing his dose 1 unit BID per week for 13 weeks. He was eating high carb dry food too --- before we found this great website.
The risk of having the dosage determined during a vet clinic stay -- your cat is probably stressed out and upset at the clinic, and so the blood sugar is unnaturally high due to stress.
When you get him home in his comfy environment, now the stress-dose is way too much insulin and your cat's blood sugar drops very low.
We highly recommend learning to test your kitty's blood sugar at home using a regular human glucometer (choose one that is "approved for alternate site testing" and/or has "sipping action strips" and needs a tiny amount of blood, like 0.3 microliters)
The test strips are the biggest expense, so check the prices when choosing a meter. Most of us test twice per day - before every shot, and occasional spot checks at other times.
Using a lancet (like a pin in a bit of plastic), we poke the edge of the ear for a tiny blood sample.
Gotta run for now (at work)
p.s. we consider a safe rate of dose increase to be +1 unit BID per week.
My Norton had Acromegaly -- a brain tumor caused his diabetes. He got 13 units BID at his highest point -- and it took over 3 months to reach that dose -- testing and increasing his dose 1 unit BID per week for 13 weeks. He was eating high carb dry food too --- before we found this great website.
Maggies Mom Debby
Very Active Member
Hi and welcome. I hope someone else will chime in because I am not familiar with Pro Zinc. 11 units seems high to me, but there are high dose kitties out there.pawspa said:
My suggestion is to keep reading the information here. The more you know, the better you can treat your cat. I also recommend home testing with a human glucometer (from any drugstore). You can then do the glucose curves yourself, saving money at the vet while avoiding the stress that may be causing higher numbers at the vet. Testing before giving insulin also assures your cat's blood glucose (BG) reading is safely in shooting range.
Hi! I'm back. The test was taken today 7 1/2 hours after his 11 unit insulin dose and his gluclose was an astonishing 390! During the eight days at the vet he was increased slowly and was sent home on 9 units. Five days later his glucose was 240 and his dosage was increased to 10 units. A week after that his insulin was 97. Three days later he wasn't feeling well and did not hardly eat anything, so I skipped his evening insulin dose and took him to the vet the next day. He was showing some improvement in appetite that next day, but his glucose was high. One week later he was still having high glucose levels so he was increased to 11 units. Buddy is a small cat during his healthiest time his average weight was about 10 to 11 pounds. He has been eating Feline w/d in canned and dry since he was diagnosed with the diabetes. I know that the canned is better for him but unlike my other cats he always preferred and still does prefer the dry over the can. I was planning on getting a meter for home testing and now I think I will get that taken care of in the next day or two. Maybe he is bouncing on this Pro Zinc insulin and might do better on something like Lantus. Another reason to do home testing. The high dosage of insulin is frightening to me. I will also have him checked for other things that might cause high glucose levels. Thanks for all your replies and suggestions.
Jen & Squeak
Very Active Member
There is absolutely nothing logical about what your vet is doing. A cat cannot be regulated at a clinic and dose changes should be one week approx apart! And to increase the dose with one test in the 200s and another at 97?? Your cat's body is under serious assault. Feeding wd dry and canned is also very old school in that it is high in carbs and low in quality protein but may be the only thing protecting your cat.
What is your general location? Maybe one of us could suggest a safer vet and teach you to test?
Meanwhile, even tho I am a stranger, pls consider dropping that dose in half..
Jen
What is your general location? Maybe one of us could suggest a safer vet and teach you to test?
Meanwhile, even tho I am a stranger, pls consider dropping that dose in half..
Jen
tuckers mom
Very Active Member
I agree with Jen, you need to drop that dose and get that glucometer.
At the clinic there is too much stress on your kitty, the BGs are going to be higher, and as Jen said you need to give each dose at least a week, at least that's how it was when I used PZI which is similar to ProZinc.
At the clinic there is too much stress on your kitty, the BGs are going to be higher, and as Jen said you need to give each dose at least a week, at least that's how it was when I used PZI which is similar to ProZinc.
Jen & Squeak
Very Active Member
I would not even bother looking at issues like acromegaly right now....your vet isn't likely to know aobut them, and chances are that your cat is simply being overdosed. Rebound or somogi effect produces high numbers when the body is trying to protect itself when it is being overdosed....that is why a methodical approach is the way to go, starting at approx 1 unit twice a day and building up that dose based on test numbers from home, over 5-7 days. There is nothing methodical in what your vet has done.
Phoebe_TiggyGA_NortonGA
Very Active Member
Agree - your vet has probably missed the best dose. Starting over at 1 unit BID, and learning to test blood sugar at home are your best bets for getting to the right dose.
Insulin can be deadly when overdosed -- better to be safe than sorry
Please read the information about HYPOGLYCEMIA (low blood sugar caused by excessive insulin) so that you recognize if your kitty has the symptoms, and know what you need to do to help him.
Insulin can be deadly when overdosed -- better to be safe than sorry
Please read the information about HYPOGLYCEMIA (low blood sugar caused by excessive insulin) so that you recognize if your kitty has the symptoms, and know what you need to do to help him.
My Vet was not there when the glucose test was done yesterday. He called this morning and wants me to reduce the insulin to 6 units and do home testing. I will be going to get that glucometer today. I am actually no stranger to the animal world. I have owned everything from parakeets to horses and everything in between. I have dealt with several diseases, however diabetes is not one of them. Many years ago, I worked at an animal hospital for about 3 yrs. I have shown dogs in the AKC and the UKC. I am a groomer/owner of a small grooming salon. I have 3 cats: 19yr. old Sheba with crf, which I have managed well for the last 2 yrs.without fluids; 17 yr. old Baby who has had hyperthyroidsism for the last 2 years, pretty easy to manage; 14 yr. old Buddy my diabetes kitty. I have a 4yr. old dog, Prio, a Norrbottenspets imported from Sweden. This diabetes is the toughest thing I have dealt with yet, but Buddy knows that mommy doesn't give up easy. Thanks for all the info! It is greatly appreciated. I'll see what happens with the home testing.
Jean and Megan
Active Member
Pretty much any human glucometer will work fine. The only exception I've seen is that the store brands named "True <something>" - TrueTest, TrueResult, TrueToGo, etc. - tend to be worrisomely inaccurate. Go for a meter that requires only a small sample (I think .3ml is the smallest - up to .6ml is OK; I wouldn't go higher than that for a kitty).
The meter itself should cost you little or nothing. If one store is charging $80 for them, go to another store. Target and Walmart always have a good selection of meters for under $20, and various drug stores also are constantly having sales. You may find a deal where you get the meter free if you buy some strips at the same time.
The biggest expense in testing is the test strips, so look at the prices (and availability) of those before you buy any meter or even go for a free-meter-if-you-buy-strips deal. (The strips must match the meter. No mix-and-match there.) A lot of people use the ReliOn Micro from Walmart, which is inexpensive and also has inexpensive strips. I use the Freestyle Lite, which doesn't have the least expensive strips but tends to be quite accurate compared to vet meters. Both of these meters require only .3ml.
For cost of strips, look at online sources. They tend to be a whole lot less expensive than retail stores (except the ReliOn). But you do want to choose a meter for which you can find strips if you run out at a thoroughly inconvenient time - weekend, holiday, evening, something like that. If it is a choice of buying retail and paying too much or possibly losing your cat, we would all shell out the $$ if we possibly could.
The meter itself should cost you little or nothing. If one store is charging $80 for them, go to another store. Target and Walmart always have a good selection of meters for under $20, and various drug stores also are constantly having sales. You may find a deal where you get the meter free if you buy some strips at the same time.
The biggest expense in testing is the test strips, so look at the prices (and availability) of those before you buy any meter or even go for a free-meter-if-you-buy-strips deal. (The strips must match the meter. No mix-and-match there.) A lot of people use the ReliOn Micro from Walmart, which is inexpensive and also has inexpensive strips. I use the Freestyle Lite, which doesn't have the least expensive strips but tends to be quite accurate compared to vet meters. Both of these meters require only .3ml.
For cost of strips, look at online sources. They tend to be a whole lot less expensive than retail stores (except the ReliOn). But you do want to choose a meter for which you can find strips if you run out at a thoroughly inconvenient time - weekend, holiday, evening, something like that. If it is a choice of buying retail and paying too much or possibly losing your cat, we would all shell out the $$ if we possibly could.
Gator & H (GA)
Very Active Member
Hi there and welcome.
I have used the OTU mini in the past and we now use the Freestyle Lite. The Freestyle Lite uses a very small drop of blood [.3]. I have found that the small drop is easier to achieve and thus I would recommended, especially someone new to testing, a meter that needed .3 [I think it is microns not ml - .3 ml is how much is in a 1/3cc syringe.... :smile: ].
You are getting some good help here. Once you get going with the testing and potentially food change [or any time for that matter] you are more than welcome to join us over in the PZI group. You need to get off the w/d and the dry and get to a wet food ONLY diet that is below 9-10% carbs on J&B's list]. Many [myself included] here use ProZinc just fine. The food does matter. But when you do change the food please follow the other suggestions here and drop back to 1u and start testing.
Also [in your spare time ;-) ]there is some PZI specific reading in the PZI group that you should probably familiarize yourself with in the Sticky at the top of the PZI forum.
I have used the OTU mini in the past and we now use the Freestyle Lite. The Freestyle Lite uses a very small drop of blood [.3]. I have found that the small drop is easier to achieve and thus I would recommended, especially someone new to testing, a meter that needed .3 [I think it is microns not ml - .3 ml is how much is in a 1/3cc syringe.... :smile: ].
You are getting some good help here. Once you get going with the testing and potentially food change [or any time for that matter] you are more than welcome to join us over in the PZI group. You need to get off the w/d and the dry and get to a wet food ONLY diet that is below 9-10% carbs on J&B's list]. Many [myself included] here use ProZinc just fine. The food does matter. But when you do change the food please follow the other suggestions here and drop back to 1u and start testing.
Also [in your spare time ;-) ]there is some PZI specific reading in the PZI group that you should probably familiarize yourself with in the Sticky at the top of the PZI forum.
Hope and Aria
Active Member
I'm seconding what everyone else has said. 11 is really high and for ProZinc, unless mitigating medical circumstances, 6 units BID is still extraordinarily high.
We use the Wal-Mart Ultima and Micro meters. Both are around $10 for the meter and about $39 for 100 strips. The ultima takes a .6 mL of blood which is more than the micro which I'd prefer, BUT you can order the test strips through walmart.com and shipping is only 97 cents.
Home testing is your best defense and offense at this point. The boards here are extremely supportive.
We use the Wal-Mart Ultima and Micro meters. Both are around $10 for the meter and about $39 for 100 strips. The ultima takes a .6 mL of blood which is more than the micro which I'd prefer, BUT you can order the test strips through walmart.com and shipping is only 97 cents.
Home testing is your best defense and offense at this point. The boards here are extremely supportive.
Jean and Megan
Active Member
The sample size is in microliters. The actual abbreviation for that uses a Greek letter that I haven't the faintest idea how to type. I've seen "ml" and "mL" used as abbreviations for microliter, though neither is accurate. Confusing since "ml" is also the abbreviation for milliliter, which is a much larger amount. Anyhow, no glucometer will require an amount measured in milliliters.
Copied from a web page I found with Google: μl. That's the actual abbreviation for microliter. The "l" is sometimes lowercase and sometimes uppercase, depending on which source you look at.
Copied from a web page I found with Google: μl. That's the actual abbreviation for microliter. The "l" is sometimes lowercase and sometimes uppercase, depending on which source you look at.
Nancy and Cody
Very Active Member
Hi and welcome!
1) You have come to a place that can really help you and kitty. You have so much to learn to advocate for your cat, and a really good place to start is our "health links'. It has good info on how to home test, how and why to convert to low carb wet food, how to present info to your vet, how to recognize hypo and how to treat it. Here is the direct link: viewforum.php?f=14
2) Prozinc is a safe, dependable insulin when dosed correctly. It is mass manufactured for cats only and is fairly new on the market (Nov 2009) but has had good results and many cats here have gone off insulin on prozinc. For more information about it and other PZI type insulins you should read the links in the PZI insulin support group. Here the direct link: viewforum.php?f=24
heres the company website: prozinc.us
3) I have one of the few, if not possible the only other cat here on those kind of doses of Prozinc, but my kitty has a high dose condition called acromegaly, and he's been diabetic for years. It seems the majority of kitties seem to do well on doses of prozinc between 1/2 unit up to 2 or 3units, assuming they are eating an appropriate diet. (some are regulated on less than 1/2 unit ) The place for help with prozinc is the PZI insulin support group forum (link above) You should post there next. I believe Gator gave you the link.
4) below most of our names you will see links to our profiles and our cats glucose spread sheets. There is a lot of great information there and setting up a ss for yourself is one of the best things you can do to help yourself and your cat. It takes time, data collecting, and probably a month or more to determine a good dose and the ss puts the data all in one place. It is highly likely that you cat missed his proper dose and is now in somagi rebound fighting the doses to save himself from hypo. Info on making a spreadsheet is in the "tech forum"
5) priorities- cut the dose, read read read, learn to test, learn about the importance of the food, set up a ss and profile, and post in PZI
hope to see you guys again soon!
1) You have come to a place that can really help you and kitty. You have so much to learn to advocate for your cat, and a really good place to start is our "health links'. It has good info on how to home test, how and why to convert to low carb wet food, how to present info to your vet, how to recognize hypo and how to treat it. Here is the direct link: viewforum.php?f=14
2) Prozinc is a safe, dependable insulin when dosed correctly. It is mass manufactured for cats only and is fairly new on the market (Nov 2009) but has had good results and many cats here have gone off insulin on prozinc. For more information about it and other PZI type insulins you should read the links in the PZI insulin support group. Here the direct link: viewforum.php?f=24
heres the company website: prozinc.us
3) I have one of the few, if not possible the only other cat here on those kind of doses of Prozinc, but my kitty has a high dose condition called acromegaly, and he's been diabetic for years. It seems the majority of kitties seem to do well on doses of prozinc between 1/2 unit up to 2 or 3units, assuming they are eating an appropriate diet. (some are regulated on less than 1/2 unit ) The place for help with prozinc is the PZI insulin support group forum (link above) You should post there next. I believe Gator gave you the link.
4) below most of our names you will see links to our profiles and our cats glucose spread sheets. There is a lot of great information there and setting up a ss for yourself is one of the best things you can do to help yourself and your cat. It takes time, data collecting, and probably a month or more to determine a good dose and the ss puts the data all in one place. It is highly likely that you cat missed his proper dose and is now in somagi rebound fighting the doses to save himself from hypo. Info on making a spreadsheet is in the "tech forum"
5) priorities- cut the dose, read read read, learn to test, learn about the importance of the food, set up a ss and profile, and post in PZI
hope to see you guys again soon!
Victoria & Stuart
Member
I agree with Jen and the others; 11 units is absolutely insane a dose of PZI for a cat. The only reason it has not killed your cat is probably the huge caloric content of the dry food you are feeding him!
The dry food is also a huge PROBLEM. cat(2)_steam <-- (angry at vets and commercial pet food manufacturers)
The calories (from carbs that cats do not need/digest well) may have contributed to your kitty getting diabetes in the first place. Even 'high quality' dry food has large amounts of calories! The other issue is free-feeding; if the cat is eating dry food at his leisure, you will have no idea how many calories he has consumed, and then the BG will vary wildy.
IF and I stress IF you are home testing and are comfortable with it, STOP feeding dry food and lower the dose WAY DOWN. Two units or less. My experience shows that 1 unit of PZIVet insulin (yes, I know you are using ProZinc) drops *my* cat's BG by about 115 points, so take that as a possible benchmark to start low and GO SLOW in raising the amount of insulin, only a fraction of a cc at a time. Pro Zinc seems to be more concentrated than other PZI's have been in the past.
So anyway. Please stop feeding the dry food and at the same time drop the insulin dose WAY back.
My cats get all wet food (with a good bit of raw, because it most canned has rice in it now), no dry at all, and it has made a world of difference for them all, especially for the sugarcat. I have been able to keep him at a consistent BG for a very long time.
Best of luck, and keep listening to these good people. They saved my kitty's life, and they will help you too. =)
~ Victoria
The dry food is also a huge PROBLEM. cat(2)_steam <-- (angry at vets and commercial pet food manufacturers)
The calories (from carbs that cats do not need/digest well) may have contributed to your kitty getting diabetes in the first place. Even 'high quality' dry food has large amounts of calories! The other issue is free-feeding; if the cat is eating dry food at his leisure, you will have no idea how many calories he has consumed, and then the BG will vary wildy.
IF and I stress IF you are home testing and are comfortable with it, STOP feeding dry food and lower the dose WAY DOWN. Two units or less. My experience shows that 1 unit of PZIVet insulin (yes, I know you are using ProZinc) drops *my* cat's BG by about 115 points, so take that as a possible benchmark to start low and GO SLOW in raising the amount of insulin, only a fraction of a cc at a time. Pro Zinc seems to be more concentrated than other PZI's have been in the past.
So anyway. Please stop feeding the dry food and at the same time drop the insulin dose WAY back.
My cats get all wet food (with a good bit of raw, because it most canned has rice in it now), no dry at all, and it has made a world of difference for them all, especially for the sugarcat. I have been able to keep him at a consistent BG for a very long time.
Best of luck, and keep listening to these good people. They saved my kitty's life, and they will help you too. =)
~ Victoria
T
Ted Schulz
Guest
Actually there are a few foods that have NO GRAIN for diabetic cats (or just healthier cats in general). Blue Buffalo Wilderness has a number of flavors of dry food. Wellness has a number of flavors of wet food. The high doses of insulin can get you into a vicious cycle of rebound (the body's defense against hypoglycemia). The glucose level will shoot down too fast or too low, the body produces glucose for protection and sends the level soaring (rebound). During rebound the cat is insulin resistant (the level stays high no matter what dose you give). As soon as the rebound stops, if you're giving high doses, the glucose level shoots down again and the cycle continues. As someone wrote previously, go back to a low dose (1-2 units or less) and work up SLOWLY. You may have a cat like mine who is highly susceptible to rebound. At just about any dose over 1, he rebounds due to how fast the glucose level drops when rebound ends. I've just tried to keep track of the lowest level for a dose so he doesn't go hypoglycemic. Some cats are just "bouncers" and I don't think there's any solution.
Chris & China (GA)
Very Active Member
@Ted Schulz
This looks like a VERY old post (2010)...not sure how you even found it!....LOL
And yes, while there are lots of "NO GRAIN" foods available these days (it's the latest craze by the pet food manufactures) that does NOT mean the food is low carb. To take the place of the grains, the companies have just started adding things like sweet potato, peas and other starches so they're still not good for our diabetic cats.
Dry foods are also not recommended period because cats are desert creatures that have a very low thirst drive. They get the moisture they need from their food and dry doesn't provide that. Even with plenty of water available, cats just won't drink enough to cover the difference.
Diabetic cats need as much water as we can get into them to help protect their kidneys....this means feeding a canned or raw diet...and lots of us even add water to canned food to get even more water into them.
There's lots of great information on Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition written by Dr. Lisa Pierson, DVM that you might like to look through
This looks like a VERY old post (2010)...not sure how you even found it!....LOL
And yes, while there are lots of "NO GRAIN" foods available these days (it's the latest craze by the pet food manufactures) that does NOT mean the food is low carb. To take the place of the grains, the companies have just started adding things like sweet potato, peas and other starches so they're still not good for our diabetic cats.
Dry foods are also not recommended period because cats are desert creatures that have a very low thirst drive. They get the moisture they need from their food and dry doesn't provide that. Even with plenty of water available, cats just won't drink enough to cover the difference.
Diabetic cats need as much water as we can get into them to help protect their kidneys....this means feeding a canned or raw diet...and lots of us even add water to canned food to get even more water into them.
There's lots of great information on Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition written by Dr. Lisa Pierson, DVM that you might like to look through
Larry and Kitties
Very Active Member
Are you using U40 syringes (have red needle cap) and drawing it up to the 11 unit marking on the syringe?
If y are using human U100 syringes (orange needle cap) yu would draw up to 27 1/2 marking.
If y are using human U100 syringes (orange needle cap) yu would draw up to 27 1/2 marking.
Chris & China (GA)
Very Active Member
@Larry and Kitties ...this thread is from 2010 so I doubt if the OP is watching
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