Im new, please help Pacaso! He's losing feeling in hind legs

Hello FDMB members,

I am new to your site and I was wondering if you can help me and my family. Our cat Pacaso was diagnosed with diabetes a couple months ago. He is 19 lbs of lovings, we adopted him from a shelter at that time he was 24 lbs but we managed to get a little weight off of him. Hasn't gone down much recently even with diabetes, hes just staying at 19lbs. He is on PZI insulin 2X a day at 5 1/2 units. We are testing his glucose via urine strips since we are tight on money as is. I am trying to get a blood glucose monitor somehow to test his blood.

The reason I am really worried is he is presenting with plantigrade stance or he is losing the ability to use his hind legs. He can go a couple feet eventually walking on his hocks then he just lays down. This is another reason we can't get much more weight off of him. Last time we got his blood checked which was last weekend it was 210. I don't want him to lose the ability to use his hind legs! Its not fair, hes only 4-5 years old. Hes my father's best bud and they keep each other going, I want to help him.

He is eating Purina indoor cat formula dry food at the moment, 3/4 cups a day if that. Yes we would like to get him on a better food one without the carbs but we have 2 other cats to take care of. If one or two like the food the other doesn't lol, its difficult but they all get fed at same time at same amount. We tried Wellness but they ALL turned it down, they hated it. Any suggestions on a brand of food? I know diet is important but my vets don't really seem to address it. They just take us around in circles. He stresses easily though, hates car rides so trips to the vet are very hard on everyone.

So what I want to know is

How can we help Pacaso so he doesn't lose feeling in his hind legs?
What food can we provide him that can please our other cats? Brand suggestion?
Any advice period you can provide to make our diabetic cat's life better?

I appreciate any advice you can give! Thank you so much!! Pacaso thanks you!

Hiei4242

 

Welcome!

The problem with his hocks can be neuropathy: http://www.felinediabetes.com/weak-back-rear-legs.htm As the site indicates, you can use Methyl B12 to help, but ultimately it is cured when Pacaso is regulated.

Our protocol, which if you have been reading on the site is very successful, calls for insulin dosages determined by testing at home and wet lo carb food. The diet can be a challenge if you have other cats, but many people here have done it. Wet lo carb is best for all cats, but especially diabetics. Check out this website by a vet: http://www.catinfo.org She explains why you should feed wet lo carb and has great ideas for switching cats over. Here is the site's food charts: http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm We try to stay between 8-10% carbs. Lots of us feed Fancy Feast, Friskies, Merrick or Wellness. For us personally, we fed Oliver no gluten, lo carb Fancy Feast.

The other big part of the equation is to test at home. We test before each shot of insulin, to be sure it is safe to give it. And we test during the cycle, to see how the insulin is working. We have helped hundreds of people learn how. Here is a site with good beginning info and a video: http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/harry/bgtest.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8

Time to do some reading. Ask questions. We would love to help you through this process.

 

There are plenty of ways to save money by making a few changes.
So first thing is to get a meter and home test. It's expensive to take Pacaso to the vet for testing and the number won't be worth much because stress often causes cats to have high or low numbers.
That's your first big savings - hometesting. Testing with the urine strips may be cheaper but you are getting numbers where Pacaso was hours ago, not now. You don't need to test as often as others; just test before each insulin shot to be sure it's safe to shoot and maybe a before bed test, and mid-cycle test during the day. And that's it for the tests needed.

Next is the food. If you switch to just low carb wet food, I bet you will need to give much less insulin each shot and in a short time you may have Pacaso right off insulin! Yes, there have been several kitties who are diet controlled and do no need insulin shots. It would be worth the effort to switch food if it were possible for no more insulin, right? At the least, his dose would not be as high so your insulin would last longer.

You already have the info on the neuropathy, and I am not familiar with the insulin you are using but the others can help you with that info.

If you have any questions about testing or feeding or insulin and dosing, just ask away. There will be someone who can help you.

 

You can get a glucometer kit for free, all you need to pay is a small shipping fee..... Newbie test kit

Please do take advantage of the program, I know Lori has been worrying about test strips expiring recently, and the kits are set up to help people just starting out to learn how to home test...like you! We really believe that home blood testing is the cornerstone of successful treatment here.

Diet is key also, but before you change your kitty's diet, you need to start home testing. Why? Because when you get rid of the dry food and change to a low carb diet, your cat's blood glucose readings will drop. If you keep giving the same amount of insulin, you are risking a hypo event. You need to be testing so you can adjust the insulin dose when you change the diet. For what to feed, please look at the links in Sue and Oliver's post...but don't change until you start testing, please!

 

You're already getting some great advice. All I can add is that if you have a Walmart nearby, the Relion blood glucose meters is cheap and the test strips are affordable going forward.

Regarding food, we feed Fancy Feast canned, the gluten free varieties, but there are many folks who feed Friskies canned gluten free varieties and some who feed 9-Lives canned gluten free. Wellness is great and I do give that sometimes, but I can't afford that all the time. Getting away from the dry will help Pacaso lose weight, lower his blood sugar and will help your civvies (civilian -non FD kitties) stay healthy.

 

Hello,

I post a candle in the name of hope for you all have given us some. I am so moved by the quick response and all the great advice. I am glad to know that he could gain motion of his hind legs again once he is regulated, dad thought it wouldn't come back. I have been reading the information you are providing through the links and I am going to forward them to my father to read as well. I will also be getting the Wal-mart Relion meter since the store is right down the road from me and I want to get started with the at home monitoring now that I know it does work with cats.

After we start testing (which will be before each shot), which I will be doing, I will try to show my mom as well since my dad is a needle weenie lol, love him though we will work on transferring them to a low carb canned diet. While I am getting the meter I will glance over at the canned food aisle to see what is available. Hopefully my little picky eater Reesie will eat what we get. *gives stern look to Reesie who is laying on the floor near the bed, she rolls over and mews at me as if to ask "What?"* lol, she is my best friend, love this little girl.

Here is a question, I am searching for an answer in the links but I thought I would ask you all. After I get the meter and start testing then make the diet change. How will I gauge how much insulin to give him....you'll probably tell me to ask my vet huh? I was J/W though.

But I am going through what you are giving me and I appreciate your help very much! I'll keep you posted as we work on getting him regulated. Hopefully he can handle the testing, he doesn't mind his shots though, in fact he purrs when he gets them, that must be his way of telling me that he feels better after I give them. Its just the mornings I worry about since I will be doing it and I have to go to college right after, part of reason why money is tight, I am putting myself through college. Well like I said I will keep you posted! Thanks a bunch!!

Hiei4242

 

I was watching for your reply. Glad you are going to listen to us crazy cat people on the internet. I know how hard it is to trust people on the internet, but we all have one goal in mind - to help you with Pacaso!

Yes, you need to plan to test before each shot to be sure it is safe to give the dosage planned. Your vet can give you some general guidelines or we can. (Don't shoot under 200 until you have several weeks of data to be sure how Pacaso will react, is one of the biggest ones.) Some people fax their numbers to the vet and get dosage advice. One of the greatest things about this site is that if you can't get hold of your vet, and you aren't sure what to do, there will be someone here to help. Our Oliver got diabetes over Christmas, and our vet wasn't available for 2 weeks. This site was invaluable to us.

Be careful with the diet change. When we changed Oliver over from dry to wet, his blood glucose levels went down 100 points overnight. Thank goodness we were hometesting, or we would have given him his usual dose, and that would have been way too much insulin. You are giving a lot of insulin. We usually urge new diabetics to start low and go slow - one unit twice a day for several weeks, then increasing by 1/2 unit. Hometesting will let you know how the insulin is working in his body and you will have the data you need to decrease or increase dosage.

 

Okay I went to wal-mart with my mom to look at food, man there is a lot out there, would you guys mind giving me some specifics of either or all brands? Thats a lot to ask for I know lol but we were like OMG! XD

How do you know what is gluten free? I've looked on the websites provided but I am still confused on what to bring home to my kitties.

Also no need to worry about me changing food before I get the meter and my home testing down to the point that I know where he stands. I would never endanger Pacaso (see avatar ) like that. Also after changing his diet I will check his levels before giving him any insulin I will also consult my vet on how much insulin to give him after I know where he stands on the low carb canned food, what ever food that may come out to be

If I am forgetting anything kindly let me know. ^^; I want to help Pacaso not hinder him. Thanks!

Hiei4242

 

Here's the food chart we use: http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm Janet has calculated the carbs for foods. We pick a food we can afford, that the cat will eat, that is between 8-10% carbs. Most people on a budget feed Fancy Feast or Friskies. Other more expensive foods include Wellness and Merrick.

 

Wheat gluten will be listed in the ingredients on the label. Please note that wheat gluten is actually a plant protein, not a carb, and doesn't affect the cat's glucose levels. The reason many people avoid it is because it is a potential and common allergen. As well, it was wheat gluten from China that was contaminated a few years ago in the pet food when so many animals were killed. So a lot of people just stay away from it, but it isn't *necessary* from a diabetic viewpoint.

From a diabetic viewpoint, we want low carbohydrate. Use Janet's fabulous charts to help guide you, but if you find foods that are not in Janet's list, the next best thing is to label read- avoid obvious grains (wheat, rice, corn) and other carbs (potatoes, peas) and things called "food starch"- which I assume is cornstarch- as the "starch" part says "stay away" to a sugarcat.

By the way, the picture of the cat on his hocks in the first link that Sue gave you is my Rambo (GA). So believe me when I say the neuropathy can be reversed! It took Rambo a few months to stop walking on his hocks and to be able to climb stairs again. It's a combination of the Methyl B12 and lowered BGs that does the trick. Be patient! Most of us use between 3 and 5mg/ day, regardless of body size. Any excess is excreted in the urine, so no worries about overdosing. Remember - it's METHYL B12. Regular B12 has no effect on neuropathy. (And make sure you avoid any brand that contains the sweetener Xylitol, since it is toxic to animals.)

Welcome aboard.

 

I should have noted that I use gluten free food because as Karen said, allergies. Tucker is allergic to gluten, his belly can't handle it and he ends up with high blood sugar and a few times he got blocked and once he needed surgery.

I can't recall, what insulin are you using?

 

Here is the link to the Fancy Feast low-carb, gluten-free food list. I hope it's up to date. http://www.felinediabetes.com/glutenfree.htm

 

Hello,

I know that Methylcobalamin B12 helped my cat, i got this info from the sugarpets website and I have heard others recommend it too, it can really help with that flat foot thing diabetic cats can get. I use (in England) the Jarrow Formulas brand, the 1000mcg pills.

Perhaps you can research this yourself, or hunt around on this board - as my vet said, you can't really overdose as they will pee out what they don't use.

Good luck,

Kay

 

Everyone has already given you great advice -- the only thing I have to add is to re-emphasize what Karen stated a few posts before this one -- please make sure that it doesn't contain a lot of extra stuff you don't need -- ESPECIALLY xylitol. I didn't know that when I bought my fist bottle of Methyl B-12 from the local vitamin/supplement store.

Within an hour or two after Motska's first dose she started acting a little loopy and almost fell off of my bathroom counter. I tested her blood glucose and it was fine, so I posted a message here on the FDMB asking for advice. Based upon the responses, I threw out the rest of that bottle of Methyl B-12 and ordered some through the vitacost pahrmacy online (I'll see if I can get a link posted here -- I'm not very good with internet stuff). She hasn't had a problem since! She still can't jump up on counters, but then she's a "big-boned" 16-year-old cat!!

The brand that many of us get from Vitacost is called NSI. It contains only the Methyl B-12, gelatin, rice flour, and magnesium stearate. You just open the capsule (it's 5mg or 500mcg -- that's the same amount either way it's labeled) and mix the powder in with your cat's food once per day.

http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Vitamin-B-1 ... 0-Capsules

 

Hello all,

I am so sorry that I haven't replied recently to your wonderful posts but college has been running me crazy.

To give you an update I am now hometesting Pacaso and he is handling it pretty well!! I am also keeping a log of his glucose levels everytime I check him and I check him when its time for his insulin shot to see where he is. I got a scare when my father told me he brought and fed him canned cat food, we are using Friskies, going back to the old days when we always fed our cats Friskies, they did very well on it. Well that night we got the glucometer, using Relion Confirm from Wal-mart. I was shocked and pleased when I tested him for he was at 125!! Most times hes around 250-300 or more! That was amazing but he still had dry food that day too but still, it seems to have done something! I think canned food is certainly going to help!

Could you all please highlight some guidelines to help him change over from dried to canned (btw all three cats love it-BONUS!!) I would like to get him on canned food but not sure exactly how to do it. I am going to get an appointment with the vet to show her what we have found while monitoring him and see what she says to help us transition him to canned without overdosing his insulin. Its the beginning I am worried about, I give him 5 units of PZI normally since the dry food causes an obvious spike in his sugar levels but....yeah. I know testing is key, okay here is an example of my worries:

lets say we are going to put him on canned food (hes fed in the morning, mid day and evening on the dry stuff, a handful or little less at a time) tomorrow and I test him and he's at 259, how much insulin do I give him that morning? He obviously won't have that spike in sugar levels like he apparently does on the dry since he'll be eating canned so 5 units would be way too much, especially if the canned food did cause that extreme decrease the one time. How much can I give him without causing a hypoglycemia risk? Seems to me I'll have to consult a vet on this huh? But anyway thought I would ask and I am doing the testing while keeping a log. Thats an update, hope you guys are having a good weekend

Hiei4242

PS

I will look into the methol b12 when we take him to the vet again, we have b12 injections but I am not sure if its methol b12 in them. I would gladly give him the shots if it would help him further.
Does it affect glucose levels at all?

 

Wow! You have come a long way! Congrats on hometesting. If Pacaso were my cat, I would start him at 1 unit of insulin twice a day with wet lo carb food. You are playing a sort of Russian roulette with the high dose, some wet and some dry. Thank goodness you are hometesting. One unit is a safe starting place. If you change over to all wet, you may get some really nice numbers.

We tell new diabetics to not shoot under 200.

 

Thank you so much, I am very pleased with myself and Pacaso as well, he is such a good boy. *hugs Pacaso*

Could you please clarify the quoted statement? Do you mean don't shoot insulin when the reading is under 200 or did you mean something else? I jusst want to make sure.

Thanks again for your praise and advise. My dad and I are going to try giving him a day of canned food tomorrow and see how his numbers turn out, I'll be home to watch him.

Hiei4242

 

Yes, that's right.

If your pre-shot BG reading is less than 200, do not give insulin.

If it's close to that, wait maybe an hour, test again. If BG is high enough then, give insulin, perhaps a reduced dose.

This is what we advise for beginners.

As you learn more about how your cat reacts to insulin, you can adjust that
guideline to suit your particular cat.

 

Yes, if his blood glucose number is below 200, we suggest you not shoot. You can wait 30 minutes or so and test again. If he is over 200, you could shoot. BUT I sure hope you have decided to go with the 1 unit - or less, depending on his numbers. Have you taken any tests today? Could you tell us the numbers you have in relation to the time insulin was given? (Like 4 hours since insulin, etc.)

If you want, post here when you are ready for the pm shot with your number. And we will also want to know if you have been feeding wet lo carb. It is better for him to be too high for a night than too low for a minute. So we want you to err on the side of caution - particularly with that 125 you got earlier.

 

Okay,

I will give you my notes for yesterday and today.

Yesterday around 7:15 AM I tested him and he was at 189, I gave him 4.5 units because I was concerned with giving him his usual 5 and around that time my dad fed him a good handful of dry food (Purina indoor cat food). I tested him again around 2:15 PM (6 1/2 hours after insulin? Bad at math here lol) after I got home from college to see where he was at and got a reading of 230 showing his glucose shot up some despite giving him the 4.5 units. Pardon my babble, I not trying to sound intelligent or anything, its just the way I write, I also make some crazy assumptions from time to time as I try to figure things out for myself, bear with me lol. Anyway no insulin given at that point, I only do morning and evening shots as vet suggested, dad might have given a tiny amount of dry food around lunch, not sure though don't quote me on that. That night I tested him again around 7:45 PM and got a reading of 259 then gave him 5 units of insulin as my father fed him dry food.

This morning he was at 200 which was at 7:20 AM. I gave him 5 units as usual since I have realized he spikes after eating the dry food (which renders most the insulin I give him useless....yeah) My dad gave him dry food around the time I gave him the shot, giving a good handful. I didn't get another test mid-day like I wanted. Tonight around 8:15 pm he was at 243 and I gave him 5 units as usual, dad fed him dry food. That is usually how it goes. I test him around 7-8 AM/PM give insulin and my dad feeds him the dry food. He only gets fed 3/4 a cup a day at the most according to my dad and that is spread out throughout the day, morning maybe afternoon and evening.

I know I need to be more consistant with my times I am doing my best to do so but it gets crazy at home. I know that is no excuse but I do the best I can. ^^;

Tell me what you think.

Hiei4242

PS

We are as I said planning to give him canned tomorrow and see how he reacts, at most if any at all I will give one unit of insulin tomorrow morning. I want to see what numbers I get with him on the canned. I will test him throughout the day and record the numbers to see how he fairs, I can post them tomorrow night if you want me to. Let me know if you have any suggestions, don't worry I am being very careful with him. A lot of people like my dad, call me a major worry wart, I can drive some people nuts with my worrying and hesitation. I want to be sure of things before I do them.

 

Good. So here is how we put that in a form we can use. (Ultimately you can put together a spreadsheet, but this will work for now. If you want to do a spreadsheet: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16 )

9/17
amps 189 4.5 Units PZI dry food
+6.5 230
pmps 259 5 units PZI dry food

9/18
amps 200 5 units PZI
pmps 243 5 units PZi

I am not sure where the 125 came in this sequence?

So, you are shooting a lot of insulin at pretty low numbers. Thank goodness you have been feeding dry food which has probably kept his blood glucose levels up. If you give wet lo carb, you have to give less insulin. Your idea of the one unit is good.

Glad you are planning to stay on top of the numbers tomorrow. Don't expect the wet food to necessarily change things overnight. Every cat is different. With Oliver, his numbers went down 100 points overnight. But for some cats, it takes awhile for the diet to take hold. In addition to the preshot tests, try to get at least a test in 6 hours after the morning shot. With PZI, that is usually the lowest point in the cycle.

You are doing fine. And you fit right in - we are all a little compulsive about our kitties. Keep asking questions.

 

i'll just say briefly...welcome to FDMB! binks and i are finding wonderful help here, and you will too.

good luck!

celi & binks

 

Hello again

Well today we fed the kitties canned food, here is the test results for Pacaso. He was fed this morning, a little this afternoon and this evening

7:30 AM- 223
11:15 AM- 145
6:50 PM- 94!!

We were shocked to heck!! 94!? That is the lowest he has EVER been!

Here is another shocker- he had absolutely NO insulin today! NONE! NOT A DROP! :shock:

What do you guys make of that? :lol:

Hiei4242

 

Hello Celi and Binks! Thanks for the kind welcome I am getting a lot of great help here.

Hiei4242

 

I'd say it's very impressive! The food may be bringing down this numbers. We generally consider a kitty a diet controlled diabetic if he goes 2 weeks in the double digits - hopefully around 70-80. So keep testing. If you get a number in the 100s, feed him and see if it goes down. You may have to give him some small doses to help that pancreas out, but it is looking like good times for Pacaso!

Congrats on the wet diet and the hometesting! What an amazing change you have made in his life in just a few days!

 

If you get a 200 then consider insulin, otherwise please don't give anything while things settle down!

 

Is he off his hind legs now that the blood sugar is low? (And 200 or less is low for sure, I only noticed my Fred walking funny in the back when he's in the 400s or 500s+).

If you still have rear leg issues, could be arthritis, or even heart disease/clot issues. Worth having that checked perhaps...

 

He is not going above 250 in his readings, usually around 100 or so. Hes only high in the morning...but as soon as he eats he goes down. I give him a unit of insulin in the morning at times and no more. Still trying to work out a good feeding schedule, the cats seem hungry all the time.

to Martica and Fred,

He is still on his hind legs! He seems worse my dad says, he can't even get up on the couch no matter how much he tries. We have not gotten the B12 yet, trying to get it. I have considered a spinal issue or clot (arthritis...hes only 4-5 yrs old, not sure that he would have that yet), he was fine until he slipped around in the carrier when we wanted to take him in to get his glucose checked a while back then his legs started giving out, but the vets keep dodging it saying its his diabetes causing the issue. Should he be getting better or will it take time?

Well gtg to class, let me know what you guys think.

Hiei4242

 

All,

Please see this INCREDIBLE topic in TT about food ingredients. Karen has done an amazing job illustrating the gulten contents in food - complete table included.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3515

 

If this started after he slipped around in the carrier, I would want to have an X Ray taken to rule out an injury.

 

Well I have tried to ask that question and point that out to the vet numerous times but they keep going around in circles with me, saying its diabetes related. Now that we have him on the canned food, his legs seem to be worsening. Hes more alert ect but his hind legs still give issues but I don't know what to do if the vets keep dodging the question. Plus we are also tight on money. Plus that was months ago since he slipped. He was fine for a bit after the slip then a couple days later he started walking funny then started with the walking on the hocks. Guess I'll have to go to the vet again and show them my findings and try again. Sigh.

Hiei4242

 

potassium levels? hyperT? stroke? injury?

all of these MUST be checked out if the condition seems to be getting worse while bgs are getting better

Jen

 

Pacaso's symptoms sound like my cat Charlie's symptoms. He does not get up anymore. I'm trying the Methyl B12 and praying that it will work. I know exactly what you are going through.

 

Re: Im new, please help Pacaso! He's losing feeling in hind

Hello everyone!!

I apologize for temporarily dropping off the face of the Earth but I have been really busy! I wanted to give you an update on Pacaso!

He has now been completely off insulin for about a week and a half. He has been eating a all canned diet of Friskes mixed grill patte food. For the last few days given one day of a reading with 108, he has been staying in the 80's-lower 90s, I test him 2X a day, morning and night. But here is the awesome part!

TONIGHT HIS READING WAS 62!!!! He is acting like a kitten and his coat condition has improved along with his play antics (chases laser pointer now, plays with our other two cats, actually chases them around the house whoa XD Did a freight train just go through the hall!?) His hind legs are wavering but there is certainly an improvement, he is having a better time handling stairs and getting up on the furniture! Starting Methyl B12 real soon, figuring out the dosage but wow! He is so alert, he has never been so alert.

The difference is just wow and I want to thank you all for your help!! The Vets are stunned and speechless lol.

I will continue the testing and will give him the B12, I just can't get over the fact that there is such a clear difference, you can tell when he is feeling good you see it in his eyes. I will keep you posted on his status but right now its looking like his diabetes battle may basically give or take a bad day or so, be over. All due to stupid diet too, grr. *hugs and kisses her sweet "fat" cat* Thank you so much for your help!

Hiei4242

 

Re: Im new, please help Pacaso! He's losing feeling in hind

What wonderful news !

The usual dosage for Methyl B-12 is 3mg 2x/day. Be sure the one you pick has that much
or more Methyl B-12. Some pills are 'combo' and the amount of Methyl is not the weight of the
whole pill.

 

Re: Im new, please help Pacaso! He's losing feeling in hind

What fantastic news! Great job Sugarmom, :RAHCAT :RAHCAT :RAHCAT

 

Re: Im new, please help Pacaso! He's losing feeling in hind

Wow! What a wonderful happy story! :smile: :smile: