Rainbow & Little Girl - Prozinc +3@7:45am 44bg @ 10am

My little girl kitty has been a diabetic for almost 5 yrs, we just got her back from a vet stay that lasted almost a week as she had high ketones and we think a kidney infection. She was on IV for a couple of days and we had to start all over again to figure out where to regulate her. At the vets office, she peaked around 2 at about 210 bg. We have her on 4units of insulin. Before breakfast usually runs into the mid to high 300s before dinner about the same. With the holiday weekend it was a good time to try and do a home curve. I checked her at noon and she was 67, and I kept an eye on her. she went down to 51 and then around 4:30 was 59. She was acting like herself, and definitely not like last week when we had to take her to the vet. My thought was that Id need to skip the insulin tonite, but just before she would would normally get it, I checked her again she's up over 300 again!! What do i do? give her the insulin? or wait till the morning? Give her 3 units instead of the 4? Anyone out there that can offer some suggestions? Most appreciated.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

most will need to know what insulin and what you are feeding

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

She's on the purina DM diet, and has that available to her all day. she eats it regularly. She also gets a jar of the beechnut baby food in the morning and eve with her insulin shot. We just started new insulin this past week as the other she was on was discontinued. It is ProZinc. I just checked her bg again and it's 500. I am just so confused as to what is going on. with it jumping up that high again, I did give her some insulin and gave her 3 1/2 units. thought it better to underdose her. She's acting fine, eating fine. The meter is an ultra touch. I have new test strips, I did a control test after the very low reading and that was around 130.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

first of all, Kudos for you testing.
I do not know much about prozinc as I use lantus so hopefully some one, ( I will see who I can find for you) will come along. just so you know the purina DM is not the best to be feeding your cat. most here feed lo carb wet from janet and binky's chart. like fancy feats or wellness or friskies ect. just store bought less expensive food. the lower BG WILL lower your cats BG and thus lower the insulin needs.
let me PM a pro zinc user and get some eyes over here for you

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

If you don't already have them on hand, I would get Ketostix. This will allow you to test for ketones at home. Most drug stores have them and they are inexpensive. I'm not a ProZinc user so I can't offer any suggestions regarding dosing.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

I am not an expert, but in order to help you people will need more info. What insulin are you using? What food are you feeding? We usually write numbers with a +, as in +1 for one hour since insulin was injected. Since everyone isn't on the same time zone this lets everyone know how long it's been since the last shot.

That seems like a lot of insulin to me. Personally I like to err on the the side of caution, but if your cat just got out of the hospital from having ketones you very well may need to be more aggressive. You should definitely be testing a lot with lower numbers like that and you should have some high carb wet food to give and some karo syrup on hand just in case you need it.

Sometimes a cat will rebound from lower numbers and that may be why you're seeing a number over 300 after her going lower. When a cat goes lower than their bodies are used to, the liver can release natural glucose to bring them higher again and that is rebound. That's why when a cat is getting too much insulin it can still look like they're not getting enough and they can end up being overdosed.

Also, if your vet is dosing from numbers he's gotten at his office it's likely the cat's numbers were higher there because vet stress can raise the numbers and then they're dosed based on numbers that aren't normal for them at home.

As I said I have no experience with ketones and I can't help with dosing, but if your cat was that low I might reduce the dose some.

You also need to be checking the cat's urine for ketones. You can get ketone strips at any pharmacy and just hold the strip under her pee stream. This will help you know in advance if the ketones are coming back.

Hopefully one of the more senior members will be here to help you soon.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

i don't see any hypo like numbers so i think you are safe for next shooting.
as for everything eles, unfortunatly i'm leaving until 10ish ca. time.
i don't see where there is an immenent emergency here.
the ketones are taken care of? want to keep kitty from those highs?
there is so much you can start doing but unless others show up...i'll see you tomorow.
i'll see if i can help get some eyes here ok.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Thank you all for your responses. Most appreciated and it confirms some of my thoughts as well. I'm in CT so on EST. Will sign on tomorrow again. For now, here is some more info on my little gir. Gotta be honest I haven't been very diligent with the blood test unless we've sensed something was up. My husband and I both care for her. He usually is the one giving her the shots, but we alternate. As noted earlier, she's been diagnosed for at least 5yrs now. Last week was my first real scare wtih her. She is 10yrs old and I had never seen her like that before. He bg was her typical preshot reading mid to high 300s, but she was lethargic and not herself at all. Took her to our vet that morning and bottom line, she was dehydrated, had ketones and some bacteria in the urine, which we believe was kidney related infection as there were no visible signs in her urine that would denote bladder. So, she was in there for about a week with iv and closely monitored. Came home this past Weds. By the end of her stay she was pretty relaxed and calm and with the new insulin the curve maintained her generally being in the 300+ range preshot, both morning and eve. Peaking at about 2pm around 225 or so (i'd have to check my notes). That was with 4units of the ProZinc. With holiday weekend and me being home, perfect time to do a home curve. Today being the first day. Wasn't anticipating such a huge drop this afternoon. Here are the readings from today. 7:35 am 320 preshot, gave 4units then full jar of beechnut, 12:45 pm 67, (checked meter and did a control which was 129) 2:30 pm 54, 5:15 pm 59, 7:20 pm 320, 8:30 pm 503 preshot then gave insulin 3 1/2 units. Between 7:30 and 8:30 she had about 1jar and 1/2 of beechnut. It's been almost two hours now since her shot, so I'll probly check her bg one more time before I go to bed. Thanks again all for responses and letting me alieviate my own anxieties with trying to get my little girl on track again. :smile:

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Looks like a dose reduction is needed -- good that you only shot 3.5u this evening.

You may even want to reduce a bit more if you are changing to lower carb food, but get some KETO-stix to test for ketones at home

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

I'd agree a lower carb food may help, and you would mostly likely need to reduce the dose some (and hopefully be monitoring fairly closely to keep the dose in tune with the food change) if you do that. Sometimes we suggest a return to 1u with a food change, but with a ketone history I would most likely NOT do that here. If you can monitor her #s, you can adjust the dose along with the food, keeping an eye out for unexpected lows early in the cycle (and if you saw those, you would give a few bites of the higher carb food to compensate, and continue monitoring & feeding if needed to offset the insulin). With ketones, often you have to be more aggressive with giving insulin than for kitties without a ketone history.

Did she eat normally today? I saw you noted the Beechnut in your post, so I wasn't sure if that means she didn't eat her regular food as well? If not, that could account for lower #s today than what the vet was seeing. If she did eat normally, it's possible that you will find the vet results different than home results. She may have been stressed at the vets, which can elevate their #s, or just eating and acting differently than at home, so maybe having different daily BG patterns.

The jump to high #s like that is typical with PZI. It can have a dramatic "poop out" where once the insulin is done, it's done. Also, like others said, if they see good #s they aren't used to, their liver can get spooked and you'll see high #s like that in consequence.

You did the right thing to give her insulin tonight, good job! The keto-stix will be a big help too if you aren't already checking for ketones at home. With those, hopefully you will be able to catch any ketone problem in its early stages and head it off at the pass.

If you have time to set up a spreadsheet and put in there any data you have that will help people give you the best possible dosing advice. It's not required, but if you have time & are up to it, it's nice to have. There are instructions on the Tech forum and a template, and if you run into problems just ask for help!

As for the dose, today's nadir looks pretty perfect! I wouldn't want her to go any lower than that though, and it sounds like you don't have much data yet at home (? did I understand that right?) so it makes sense to me to go with the 3.5 and get a little data. If her nadir is a lot higher though and you are still seeing a U-curve (i.e. you get a U-curve where the #s are all too high), I would bump the dose back up. Don't want the nasty ketones coming back!!! This dose is a bit higher than many on LC food, but the #s look good. It might be that it's just a little bit too high, and/or it may be that the food she is on is enough higher carb to require a slightly higher dose than many cats.

Feel free to post daily with her #s & how she's doing, either here or in the PZI forum, or in both places. Welcome!

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

p.s. is she on DM dry or canned? When Bix was on DM dry he needed around 4u to get results. Never tried the canned though. Once I switched him to Wellness (4% carb) he went from over 4u down to around 1.5 in a few days. Not to say those doses will be anywhere close to the same for your kitty, but just for reference to give you an idea...

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

hi rainbow, it's late here so i won't likely be on in the morning till noon your time.
looks like a curve is definetly in order, then a routine of checking before every shot.
then a diet change perhaps.
i don't think you went too low at nadir so that was ok, the 57 or whatever.
and get keto stix tomorow...they're about $10 or less..will save you $ at the vets.
we'll i'm off to bed and i'll look for you in the am.
your cat is too young to have been diabetic all these years...maybe we can change that.
lori

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

I would have to disagree with that statement. Although I am skeptical in this case that the cat has been diabetic all that time (?5 years? when it's mentioned the cat is now 10 and was diagnosed at 5 years) it is certainly possible for young cats to develop diabetes. Myy cat was just 3 years old when diagnosed. The incidence of diabetes increases as cats get older but it is not unheard of (or even very unklikely) for younger cats to become diabetic. A cat is considered "senior" after 7 years so the chances start increasing from that point on. There are many factors which contribute to the development of the disease the most common one being the wrong diet ohmygod_smile genetics, being male, stress, medications (cortisone), and other health related issues (Acro, cushings, pancreatitis, infection, poor dental status...) While most cases of FD are Type II (insulin-resistant diabetes) Type I (insulin-dependent) is possible and typically manifests in younger individuals. Type I is genetic and chronic (it cannot be reversed) it is an autoimmune disease that destroys the beta-cells (insulin producing cells) of the pancreas.

So while it is somewhat unlikely that this cat has been diabetic all that time, it is certainly not impossible and if risk factors have been there (diet, infection etc.) then the likelyhood increases. If the cat has Type I diabetes it will not acheive remission. If it has Type II remission is possible (even likely) however the likelyhood of remission is greatly influced by the treatment andd elimination of predisposing factors ( beginning treatment early in the course of the disease, stopping cortison, low carb diet, maintaing ideal weight, using the correct insulin, and following a protocol that allows pancreatic healing by keeping the BG in a physiological range as much as possible to premote beta-cell healing.

Be careful with making "absolute" statements, anything is possible!

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

My cat was recently diagnosed with diabetes (March 13th to be exact), and even though we had her on ProZinc, she's now on Lantus.

When on the ProZinc, she too, would get high #'s, but that's because the vet wanted us to feed her Hill's Prescription W/D formula. I found this board, and after a hypoglycemic episode (high dose of insulin... which was 8u BID combined with the high carb food), I immediately dropped her insulin down to 1u BID and immediately switched her to Fancy Feast wet food that night. I have her on Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblet, and after many suggestions from this board, have her on Lantus. Her #'s are very good now. Thank goodness.

I sincerely, and highly suggest that you buy either of those low wet food that everyone's suggesting. It will make a huge difference on your cat's #'s. Also, when doing so, start at the beginning by giving him/her 1u BID and then increase as everyone suggests. Since Blackie's on Lantus, I've been increasing her by 0.25u every 6 cycles, until recently when I've increased her every 8 cycles, give or take a cycle here and there.

Also, you DO need to shoot on schedule each day. Test at least 4x a day (AMPS, +6, PMPS and before bedtime, minimum). Unless you're having regulating issues, I would suggest testing every 3 hours (AMPS, +3, +6, +9, etc.). Or, whenever the others deem it necessary to test. They will not steer you wrong. I know... I trust them since the day I signed on this board. If you haven't already, get a spreadsheet started as this will help others on here determine how your cat's doing, and what you should do next. There are a lot of experience on this board. They will help you through this process.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Good morning. I wanted to say hi from Milford, CT. You're already getting great information, not much I can add, just wanted to welcome a fellow Nutmegger.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

I just logged in. I am overwhelmed by all the great info. I'm not quite up to speed with all the acronyms yet, so first ? is what does nadir stand for? I'm getting ready to give her her shot and then I'll get back on and ask some more ?s. I did check her bg around 7:15am and it's @ 566, so, I'm going to go with the 4u and keep a close eye on her today.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

First off just wanted to say hi and welcome to the FDMB family. Yes, there is a lot of great info here from a lot of caring cat crazy folks. Now to answer your question, if I understand it correctly (and if not someone will correct me), nadir is the lowest point in a BG curve, it is the reading right before the BG numbers start rising again. With a lot of the insulins this is the point that you want to look at when trying to decide to raise or lower the dosage.

Mel

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Nadir means the lowest point of blood sugar in an insulin cycle. If you test every two hours today until the next shot, you can see what the "curve" of the blood glucose looks like. Sounds like you are up and down. Maybe because of the last ketone incident or somehting else. The thing about diabetes is, if you haven't been doing occasional curves it's hard to know what is happening. I kind of, too, just wonder if she needs a different insulin. Some cats do better on certain insulins. Some are like clockwork on the pzi types (like your prozinc) some do fantastic on lantus or levemir. Here is one question, did they test for infections while she was in for the ketones? That can make everything just whacko *and* cause ketones.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Here are a few definitions of some terms that are used when talking about insulin and BG (blood glucose) curves.

The peak of any insulin means when it is strongest, or working the hardest. At this time, your pet's blood glucose levels will be at their lowest, or at their nadir. Once you know this time for your pet on a particular insulin, you know the ideal time for a peak blood test.

Onset is the length of time before insulin reaches the bloodstream and begins lowering blood glucose. Insulins with long onset (2 to 4 hours) are typically the long-acting insulins, or those that have long duration. Those insulins with the shortest onset times (30 minutes) belong to the fast-acting category, or those with relatively short duration. The intermediate-acting insulins have a 1-2 hour onset with 8-12 hours of duration.

Duration is the length of time an insulin continues to lower blood glucose.

The four duration categories are:

* Rapid-acting or Fast-acting insulin begins to work shortly after injection, peaks in about 1 hour, and continue to work for 2 to 4 hours.
* Regular or Short-acting insulin reaches the bloodstream 30 minutes to an hour after injection, peaks anywhere from 2 to 3 hours after injection, and is effective for approximately 6-8 hours.
* Intermediate-acting insulin generally reaches the bloodstream about 1-2 hours after injection, and is effective for about 8 to 12 hours.
* Long-acting insulin generally reaches the bloodstream about 2 to 4 hours after injection, peaks 4 to 8 hours later and is effective for about 12 to 18 hours.

Note that an insulin that is long-acting in humans may be intermediate-acting in cats. The duration classes used here are for humans and usually match those in dogs -- their classifications in cats are somewhat shorter due to cats' faster metabolism.

Carryover or carry-over refers to insulin effects lasting past the insulin's official duration. It's been observed that some long-acting insulins leave an insulin depot[1] under the skin that has a small residual effect that may last anywhere from 12 to 48 hours, after the principal action has ended. Note* this effect is primarily observed with insulins like Lantus and levemir.

Overlap refers to the period of time when the effect of one insulin shot is diminishing and the next insulin shot is taking effect. Caregivers can purposefully manage overlap to increase the effect of insulin on their pets' blood glucose levels and thus hold the curve of their blood glucose levels fairly flat.

Suppose a cat gets an insulin shot every 12 hours, gets 15 hours duration from each shot, and is on an insulin that has a three hour onset. During the 3 hours after each insulin shot, there will be two insulin shots working to reduce blood glucose levels: the diminishing previous shot and the rising current shot. This may mean that the ongoing insulin dose should be less than if no overlap was used.

*consider the principal action of the insulin to be its onset, peak, and duration. If you shoot insulin again before the duration has expired, there will be overlap. Carryover is whatever small residual effect is left after duration has expired.

Hope that helps! For other terminology used on this message board here is our Glossary

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

the more I learn the more I feel confused. I am hoping the insulin forums have info on which ones are long lasting, fast acting etc. Lots of great info here - hoping the original poster's kitty is doing OK now.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

That's completely normal! :lol: Don't worry to much about it, most people are using the long-acting insulins today. Most of the other types are only used by humans or in some cats with special needs (ie. high dose cats with Acro etc.) Many of the short and itermediate insulins have been done away with.

Short acting insulins are usually designated by the letter R (Humalin R, Novalin R) they are never used alone, typically they are given as a bolus at Preshot to bring the BG down quickly in the first few hours of the cycle before the basal insulin (a long acting) begins to take effect. This is used by high dose cats with conditions like Acro or insulin resistant antibodies. It may also be used in an inpatient setting to manage a cat with ketoacidosis.

Intermediate insulins (Lente) are insulins like Vetsulin (Caninsulin) and NPH, some of the human insulins have N in thier name (Humalin N) although some vets are still prescribing them they are becoming less used. Espcially since Vetsulin has been taken off the market in many countries. The more successes with long acting insulins have encouraged many vets to avoid these once typical insulins. Many are however still used with good results in dogs with diabetes (dogs have a metabolism more like humans and these insulins work much longer for them) the animal approved insulin (Vetsulin, in Europe/Canada sold as Caninsulin) was made primarily for dogs.

Long-acting insulins are the synthetic analogs such as Lantus and Levemir. PZI and Prozinc are simular to these however thier duration is often somewhat shorter putting them "in between" intermediate and long-acting. Several other long acting insulins are no longer manufactured (Ultratard, Humalin U)

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

There is a sticky in the PZI forum that has a few basics on the duration & stuff of the PZI insulins, so check there for specific info!

Also don't worry about getting a lot of data every day - if you can get the 2 PSs that is the first thing, and then if you can get one spot test in that is great, but that can't always be managed if you are working. When you can get a spot check in here & there it gives you great info, and you can vary the times to get a fuller picture.

Then maybe on the weekend you can pick one day to get in more tests - every 3 hours is great, or what I have done sometimes is split a curve out over a couple days, so maybe PS, +2, +4, +6 one day, and PS +6, +8, +10, PS another day. You'll get more variation in the data, but it's easier on your cat's ears (and on the tester! ;-) ) that way, and a couple spot tests in the same cycle help to see what direction the #s are going in during a slice of the cycle.

If you are able to get more data daily that is fine, but just wanted to be sure you don't add to your stress by thinking that you need to on most days. That may vary by insulin, I am only speaking for PZI.

For anyone interested in reading up on the other insulins, there is a ton of information in the Lantus forums and I think also in the Levemir forum. As well as info about those insulins, there are some great links that discuss more general concepts, etc. There is also a Pet Diabetes Wiki with great reference info. That has a chart explaining all the BGs - what is good, what is so-so, what is awful, etc., as well as a ton of other info. You can find that by going to the Navigation Links forum, and then look for the post about the Wiki.

It's very overwhelming at first, but it will start to make more sense as you go. Everyone here has been through the same learning curve and most of us were freaked out too at first, so no worries. I went through lots of kleenex at the beginning I can tell you, and now most days it's a piece of cake. You'll get there, just focus on what you need to each day to deal with that day, and you'll learn everything else along the way.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Rainbow we are all happy to have you here and really feel we can help you make progress with your kitty.

Monique I stand corrected when I said this kitty is too young to have been diabetic all these years. More clearly, a kitty dx'd at that young age, with diligent testing, shooting and diet has a better chance than average of becoming diet controlled.

Rainbow you can look up our 'lingo' in one of the stickies above on the health page. But never hesitate to ask...we all had to ask and learn.
By now you know you'll need to not only do a curve but do test before each and EVERY shot.
a 10 year diabetic kitty here yesterday who had been throwing the same #'s for years and mama got a little complacent had like a 12 hour hypo to deal with....becuase she did'nt test, (why, it's always the same) but this day it was NOT the same.

I did'nt catch up on what you normally feed but if you don't have our chart of canned food with 7-10 carbs or less I can link it up for you.

the check up for infection? and stay with us daily ok....we like to see what how your doing each day if you can..

We care!
We have diabetic kitties too! most in excellent health, but they did'nt start out that way.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Hello everyone. I've been working on processing all this wonderful information and also opened a google account to get the spread sheet. I filled it out with the last three days of data i have. Now just got to figure out how to upload it onto this site. #s seem pretty good today. Last checked 1/2 hr ago and she's down to 141. Next time I check I would expect to see it going back up. I'll apologize now, if I get "long winded" with this post, but I'll try and give a little background info and try and answer some of your ?s.

My hubby and I share the care of our "little girl" and up until last week we had become very lax in doing routine bg readings. We both work and sometimes long hrs, so sometimes the schedule had been a little off w/in a hr in one direction or another, but overall she seemed to have been doing fairly well with some ups and downs here and there with some other issues. She was diagnosed at least 5 maybe 6 yrs now and our vet noted that was pretty young. She is a Russian Blue and the only pure breed I've ever owned. She was an only kitten and the first for one or both of her parents. I'm thinking that may have something to do with some of the out of norm things that we've had go on with her. Anyhow, As noted earlier this was the first real scare I've ever had with her re: the diabetes. I have another non-diabetic cat and a dog.

Re: the food. She has been on DM primarily the entire time she's been diabetic. However, it's free style so it's available thruout the day (not where the dog can get it) and both cats eat it. Her weight has been a cause of concern from the get go (underweight), so another reason to have it available thru out the day. Now, I'm a little puzzled as to why some have said the DM is not good. It is low carb and high protien. The beechnut baby food has been a part of her morning and evening routine for some time and she is very punctual when its time to get it. So, she often reminds us when it's time to give her her next shot. LOL. When she is doing well, we usually give her 1/2 jar, when not and we need to get more weight on her we'll give her a full jar. She has had no issues eating. After she finishes she often heads upstairs and munches on the Purina DM (oh, it is dry DM she didn't like the canned one) Now since we've had Rex (the dog for about a 1yr 1/2) she and him are on pretty much the same schedule . They both think the other is getting something better, so will keep an eye on when the other is done in hopes something is left. Rex gets dry mixed with wet Purina One. The P1 I found to have more natural ingrediants and contains oats, barley rice, so a bit more carbs. yesterday he didn't have any left overs so little girl didn't get anything. This morning she did and now it's dawnin on me that that may be why she's not plummeting today with her #s.

As to her hospital stay and ?s concerning infections etc. We ran a full series of tests on her. The blood work came back clean as far as infection was concerned. However, there was some bacteria in her urine, but no blood or other outward signs indicative to a bladder or urinary trct infection. My vet suspected a kidney infection as that apparently doesn't always show up in the blood work. He said that would cause her diabetes to get all screwed up and likely would explain a good part of what was going on. Apparently kidney infections in cats rarely have any visible signs you can pick up on right away. That along with the ketones in her urine ( and I think that was the first time ever that we had seen the ketones actually that I can remember) She was on IV fluid for a few days to flush her out, and a combined high dose of antibiotics . Being that we were starting all over again with the diabetes, we kept her in there long enough for them to get some idea of a curve, and a base line to start wtih. Knowing there would be some adjustments with getting back home. This weekend was a perfect weekend for me to stay home and keep a closer eye on her with three days off and do a home curve. Yesterday just really thru me as i didn't expect to see her so low. Today's #s are more what I had expected.

We had been on the vetuzuline that recently got discontinued. She just started this week with the prozinc. Sounds like there may be a difference between that and the PZI. Is there?

Ok, I think I'm done with this chapter.. LOL and pretty much covers the pertinent history. Now lets see if I can get that spreadsheet loaded.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... l=en#gid=0

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

To help with two of your issues.

Purina DM wet has ingredients that are no better (and maybe worse) than over the counter catfood. When we tried to get Oliver to eat it, he got tired of the taste in a few days. We try to stay between 8-10% carbs; many of us feed Fancy Feast, Friskies, Wellness, Merritt. See these food charts to get the carb amounts: http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm

And we really advocate feeding only wet, lo carb. Dry catfood is not good for any cat, but especially harmful for diabetic cats. See this website written by a vet: http://www.catinfo.org It really does make a difference. When we changed over from dry to wet food, Oliver's bg levels went down 100 points overnight.

Here is information on how PZI works: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1979

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

agree that the wet canned low carb food is your best choice. the dry, we refer to as kitty crack simply does not measure up.
the vetsulin also very good your off that. it's not the best insulin for your kitty. it's fast acting and not as good as the pro zinc pzi that your now using. so that is good news.

introduce your kitty to wet if she does'nt like it by offering just just juice in the can first. very few kitty's can walk away from licking the juice.
if you want i'll link you to our food chart.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

the pzi is a forgiving insulin in terms of exact shooting 12/12...you can mix it up a little if need be. i do all the time. but it is IMPERITIVE to test.
i think i already said that huh? :roll:

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Kitty crack .. good one - our vet calls dry food "Cheetos for cats"

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

PZI is a family of insulins - ProZinc is one in that family, so no worries there. Each version of PZI is slightly different than the others, but they have very similar effects.

I think the DM dry is something like 13% carb right? I may have the exact # wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's above 10, from back when Bix was on that. So significantly different than a LC food that is say around 5% carb. I was puzzled too when I got here as to why I was hearing that the food my vet was recommending was bad, but I can tell you from first-hand experience with Bix that going to LC canned has made all the difference with him. He free-feeds too, so I would get random days when I suspect he didn't eat as much and I'd see blue #s, vs. high #s other days. He still free-feeds now (I also learned here that it's safe to leave canned food out for a few hours), but his #s are mostly all blues, on less than 1/3 the amount of insulin he needed on the DM dry. Plus I never did get him regulated on dry food after months of trying, vs. one month after canned food he was well-regulated.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Well we just did our last test for today. Here are the results.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... l=en#gid=0

I like these numbers much better than yesterdays. Only thing I find odd is how in three hrs she could go from 182 to over 500 again. You weren't kidding when you said once its done its done. Going to stick with the 4units for now and see how tomorrow goes.

So the majority of you feed only wet food. No one on this forum supplements with dry? I've gotta ponder that and look up some of the references you provided. Does that mean you only feed twice a day after their insulin shots? Being at work all day, I like to know they have something available to them and I'm not keen on leaving wet food out.

I gotta be honest folks, I just don't see myself doing bg readings every single day, especially once we get her regulated. Those test strips are very expensive. However, I do agree that I need to be more diligent than I had been and at the very least do a mini curve on the weekend to make sure we are staying on track.

I do appreciate all of your input and have a lot to ponder and discuss with my husband. Have a good nite all and I'll keep you posted.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

The vast majority of us feed wet only. There are a few people who. after months of trying, could not get their cats to eat wet. They use a low carb dry,but it makes it much harder to regulate or get the cat into remission.

I have an automatic feeder, so I freeze the cubes of wet (in a silicone cupcake pan) and put it into the feeder. That way, he can free feed. Without the feeder, you can just put out the cubes and let them defrost over the day.

Have you checked on ebay for your brand of strips? I bought them for the Precision Xtra for less than 1/2 the price at the store. Just be sure to check the expiration date.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Welcome!

I have to tell you, I think I was thinking exactly the same things you were. And the vets were pretty casual about the testing, and one, whom I really like was kind of insinuating that the little testing I was doing was too much and that I should just leave her alone. So I did. One morning I had a real desire to test, but talked myself out of it (I had just tested a day or two before) so I gave her her shot. Then a half hour later decided to go ahead with the test and got a 59. But I had already given the shot. I tested from there on and whoa--good thing I did because she was clearly heading into a remission (we're on day 5 of a OTJ trial). I definitely would have at the very least had a bad visit to the emergency room if I didn't listen to the people on here.

Same with the dry food. I have a cat who doesn't like wet food. Never has. She's 15. Not to mention the stuff stinks. But I compare it to how I love the taste of Pepto Bismol--the smell of wet food now smells like freedom from testing and shooting and worrying. Looking back, I actually think the prescription dry food for her Kidney disease is what brought on the diabetes (that stuff is way high in carbs and low protein). I finally found a brand or two of canned she liked, so I set myself a small goal of feeding some wet and cooked meat to minimize the dry food she ate--this is where her numbers started to plummet. And because she's got a sensitive stomach, she has to free feed (if your cats don't, they'd probably be fine with meal time). I actually leave out cooked meat--which, I know, is a little crazy pants, but it's better than giving insulin. Another option, like people have mentioned, is to start by switching to a low-carb dry like EVO and taking it from there. We're not even totally free of the dry troll--she only gets a small amount to graze at night--I'm slowly sneaking the wet in on the side of the bowl...

Take a look at my spreadsheet, the lack of testing followed by notes with exclamation points 40 BG readings and a lot of testing is pretty hard evidence of how fast this can change on you--and how I thought it was fine not to test a lot, and that I was sorely mistaken. That's not to say you have to test as much as most people on this site--you can only do what you can. But I would consider at least starting out with pre-shot tests and mid-cycles when you're around. You'd be surprised how fast it becomes a habit.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

You'd be surprised how much even a few bites of dry can affect the #s. Cats show up here who were in remission (diet-controlled) where their people started letting them have a few nibbles of dry and they end up back on insulin. Think of it as M&Ms. Even 2 or 3 bites of HC canned can have the same effect in raising BGs.

If your cat has a chance of going off insulin and into remission, I would say give canned food a trial, no dry at all (be sure to reduce the insulin dose when you change foods!!!) and see what happens. If your cat goes OTJ and you don't have to mess with insulin AT ALL, and only have to test maybe once a month just to be sure things are still good, I think you will be glad you did it. If your cat doesn't go off insulin, then you can evaluate if you want to feed dry food and then counteract it most likely with a higher dose of insulin.

There are a few cats around who are on dry for one reason or another, some who have even done quite well. But they are a small minority. If you follow things for a while here it becomes really clear that for the majority of cats, LC canned makes a dramatic improvement in their #s. There are some cats who don't get much improvement from a switch, but again, it's a small minority from what I have seen.

With wet food, there are quite a few people who use a food timer, and/or freeze portions of canned to leave out so it will stay fresher during the day.

Wait til you see a rise from 180 to 500 in just 1 hour! :shock: It can be like that. Once they are on LC canned and have spent some time in good #s so their bodies get used to it, you tend not to see quite that level of drama.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

I've always fed my cats wet food - I only started the dry with my new cats when a friends cat had all sorts of issues with teeth and she'd never fed it dry. So when I got Roxie (my female MC) I invested in some expensive dry that helped with hairball control (can't remember might have been Royal Canin) when Robbie came along he came with a bag of Nutro Max Kitten food that the breeder had given the kittens as "snacks" - they both loved it - I had to chase Roxie away from it cause it was kitten food - when we finished that bag I started on Nutro Max hairball control for them both. This was given via large handful about 3x per day for free feeding - their "meals" have always been wet fancy feast - half a can each in the am and pm. As Robbie's weight went beyond a good point we began cutting back on dry and also switched to hairball control LIGHT (which I now know for his current condition is worse) - than we began mixing Wellness dry (lower fat - we were thinking weight loss) in with the hairball light. That was what he was on when he got that shot of steroid and headed into the diabetic state (I do believe years of being on and off cortisone led him to the brink of diabetes and than that shot pushed him over the edge, the weight didn't help). SO now - the only dry served in the house is half Royal Canin Diabetic formula and half regular Science diet hairball control, we are phasing out the Science Diet. I also literally give him servings of about 15-25 "kernals" of the dry mix at a time. I am worried about going off the hairball control but we're doing it. Should I also seriously consider going off the Royal Canin? It's for diabetic cats - but ?? thoughts??? He gets a smaller and smaller amount but is still SO excited when he hears it hit the bowl - if it takes that long - usually he hears the top of the tupperware come off and he's running towards it.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

rainbow, ya know i said the exact same thing...'i don't see myself keeping this up for long'
it becomes addictive! i think you will keep it up. once you see the results.
as for pricey. i can hook you up, i think you're a newbie are'nt you? i do newbie kits and maybe can find you a meter with inexpensive strips in my stack of stuff. also we bid on ebay for strips.
you and your cat will grow to like doing this in a strange way...truly. it becomes part of your bond and it becomes very exciting to get those #'s down. who knows, i think you may become diet controlled which means no insulin, no testing...but you have to work at getting there.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Good Morning, I haven't read all of your post yet, but am hoping someone on the east coast might be online.
OK, this morning she's 268 w/o insulin yet. I know I'll send her into shock giving her 4units! So what do I do? 3units? 2units? I know I gotta give her something.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

1/2 hr later, up to 300 so I gave her 3.5 units... we'll see how it goes.......

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

I can't comment on the dosing, especially as I am unfamiliar with the insulin you are using. I use Levemir, and had used Lantus and originally Caninsulin.

I can comment on testing. The 2 tests before shots need to be done, and can't take that much time because you are already there to give the shot, so why not test just before you stick that needle in .. you may find a number like 75, and what would you do then? Just imagine if you had NOT tested and just went along and shot that 4units. I don't think you want to go there; it's scary to be with a hypo situation.

The foods I can also comment - my Shadoe will have numbers THROUGH THE ROOF if she eats so much as maybe a mouthful (4 pieces of kibble). I have seen it! And people use the dry food when desparate to bring a cat's numbers up. The DRY foods are all bad; hands down. Bad for diabetics.
There are cats who are diet controlled. The owners switched them to low carb wet food and pretty soon, they have normal BG. It happens often.

About regulation and testing... I consider my cats as fairly well regulated, but one gets 25+units BID and the other is just under 9 units. Their needs fluctuate so I must test because I need to keep them in good numbers which requires my testing to know when to adjust their doses. I had a fructosamine test done recently on my Shadoe and the vet was shocked at how well regulated she shows.

I work as well during the week and am away pretty much from amps to pmps. In the morn, I test the two, give their shots, put out food and leave for work. In the eve, I get home, test the two, give their shots, put out food, then settle for my evening. At the least, each eve, I try to get a before-bed test because you never know how low a number could appear at night with some cats.
On the weekends, I am around and am able to do more testing for curves.

Because I am away during the days, I and many others use an auto-feeder as you can space out their food intake for the day in the compartments. If you don't want to leave the wet food out all day due spoilage, many put foods into ice cube trays, then put the frozen cubes of food into the compartments for later in the day and then the food will be thawed out.
Here's the feeder I use:
Petsafe 5-meal Auto Feeder
It's a great tool because you select and set the times for the feeder turn and honest, the cats know the sound and run when they hear it. I have seen Shadoe sit outside it and wait for it to turn cuz she is ready to eat. It's also good for kitties who tend to gulp all the food then are hungry later in the day.
One thing I found interesting is that I also saw when food was eaten; I discovered that Shadoe naps in the aft, so she does not eat much then.

If you want to see what people mean about the poor quality of the food you are feeding, look up the ingredients online and compare them to some others. The food really makes a big difference in the results you get and the health of your cat.

Best of luck in your dose choice for today.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Apoligies in advance for how long this is

Gayle gave you some fantastic information, she does an amazing job with her kitties. In case you didn't know, her kitties both have a condition called Acromegaly so they need and do well with the high does "one gets 25+units BID and the other is just under 9 units." I'm simply mentioning this because the high dose may look scary, but for her kitties it's necessary. She learned that through hometesting and then when she saw the BGs not moving, she got tests done and found her kitties' dx.

I know that you don't think that hometesting going forward, once your kitty is regulated is going to be necessary, but my own little man Tucker has been FD going on 5 years. I still test every day. This past month there were 4 separate days where he could have hypo'd had I not been hometesting. One was an evening preshot in the low 30s. Another with a mid day low 30s, and this past week on 9/1 mid-day low 30s and yesterday at about +5 heading to the 30s, caught him in the 40 range.

Had I shot the PM PS of 30-something without hometesting first, Tucker may not have survived. Sounds dramatic, but it was night time, I would have been sleeping when/if he hypo'd and it could have been severe. The day time low numbers were caught because Tucker was acting off and I could see he needed a blood sugar test. He's good about telling me when he's off.

Years ago, Tucker used to get about 3 Units of insulin. Now 5 years later he's getting 0.75U BID. Like Gayle, I learned through hometesting over time that my cat needs a small dose. You will find the right dose, but it's going to take data gathering, write down information about how your kitty is feeling that day, did he/she vomit? Eat well? Play, purr, act happy or act lethargic? Note the BGs. You will start to see a pattern and start to understand that the whole cat which includes BG levels, fur color (Tucker's orange goes pale when he's having a pancreatitis flare), attitude, all of this plays a part in treating FD. And although all of this sounds overwhelming, it becomes second nature. Noting your cat's color and mood is simple, doing a BG test can be so fast and simple it takes literally seconds.

There was a time when I had three cats all on insulin at the same time. Two have since passed, one from cancer, one from heart disease, but the time it took to test and shoot was less than 5 minutes. Since then I have adopted more FDs, but they are currently controlled on diet alone. Someday they may need insulin, but not right now.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Maybe it is just me, but I couldn't access your spreadsheet. You have to give permission on that last page for everyone to see it. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

AGHHHH!!!!! Did not make the right decision this morning!! I just checked her bg and not even 3hrs after the 3.5u, she is already down to 44bg!! Didn't want to chance her going into shock, so rubbed some karo in her mouth right away! This is nuts!! This Prozinc is not going to work for her. Way to erractic. I cannot be at work all day worrying what the effect will be for the day. Will contact vet first thing tomorrow morning.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

Please test again in 15 min to see where she is now. Keep in mind that the karo is short lasting and you are near the start of the cycle.

please also edit your subject line IN YOUR FIRST POST to read prozinc 44 at +3 please help

catch someone's eye who knows this insulin better than I.

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub...QWZaNjRpcHNIUEpQWUhrSzc0aGc&hl=en&output=html

 

Re: Please help, I just don't know what to do.....

You will need to keep testing, probably every 20-30 minutes or so, so you can keep her from going any lower. Keep the Karo handy. Do you have any HC food with gravy? That will raise her bg for a longer period of time.

 

Re: Rainbow & Little Girl - Prozinc 3.5u @ 7:45am 44bg @ 10am

just checked her again - up 53 bg and gave her a little more karo. Can anyone see the spreadsheet yet?

 

Sorry I can't see the ss yet.

In the mean time you can post her numbers here like this.

AMPS
+1 - 1 hour after shot
+2 - 2 hours after shot
etc.

 

Yes, your spreadsheet works.

We should have one thread to reply to. Since this one is so long, and Rob and Harley started you a brand new one below, what one shall we reply to? We don't want replies getting lost.

 

how do I get the profile to appear with the spreadsheet attachement?

 

I guess we stay with this thread. Here are the directions for the profile: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17766

The syrup will bring her up short term. It doesn't last long. If you can get her to eat a little higher carb food (even a few pieces of dry is okay) it will bring her up and keep her up longer. You don't want to feed a whole lot at one time, because you want to be able to feed the low numbers for a few hours. PZI generally has a nadir around 5-6 hours after the shot, so you will be to be testing for several hours yet. Do you have a good supply of strips?

PS. The spreadsheet that works is the first one in 7:11am post. The one below your signature doesn't work. It probably needs the http. The mechanics will keep you occupied between pokes, but you do need to be testing every 15 minutes or so.

Have you printed off the hypo sheet? viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15887

 

Ok, lets see if I got this signature right with spreadsheet link.

I tried to give her a piece of dry, but she's not interested. I do have plenty of strips, but looks like my battery in meter is low. Dang it! I'm the only one here, so I'm not to sure about leaving her just yet. Maybe I'll try and see if she'll eat a little of Rex's canned. She'll still some of his in the morning when she can.....

 

sorry, still don't have the spreadsheet right... off to check her again....

 

If she is still in the 50's, you should be safe to run out for 10 minutes for batteries. Or do you have something else in the house that uses the same kind? It is imperative that you have a functioning meter.

 

Try removing the bracket after the first url, I copied yours, removed the bracket so it starts Little Girl's Spreadsheet

 

There we go! Put the important eye-catching stuff in the subject line and you attract those who can help the most. I sure don't know your insulin, so it's a good thing Sue and some others will help you.

Yes, being low so early in the cycle, you have a bit of a ways to go till you have passed the lowest for this cycle. You see on the last few days, her low is around +6 or so, so for sure go easy on the foods ... just small tsp of HC or other with some karo drops mixed in. The karo will work faster and then when it wears off in an hour, the food should kick in to keep her up a bit. Don't bother with giving her dry food because all it does it take too long to bring numbers up and stick around too long so she is stuck in those high numbers. Better to go with LC or even HC with drops of karo.

Be prepared for her to bounce high by ps, she's sure bouncing alot. Just wondering how you got to such a high dose and because she may be needing less than what you are giving her now.

Your spreadsheet is a perfect picture why people test through the cycles - if you look at 9/3, you would say oh she too high, needs more insulin. but then you look at 9/4 and yesterday and you see whoa she is getting plenty, maybe plenty too much!

Just my observations, not suggesting anything.

So keep testing every 30min till she gets up to a safe level and stays there. Don't let your guard down if you see a nicer number because that may be just the karo you are seeing and she could dip down a bit again as there's still all the insulin in her yet to get working. Testing is very important right now.

And listen to Sue and the prozinc insulin guys; they deal with it all the time so know what you need to do.

 

Hypos are fun aren't they :roll:
First of all, batteries-are they common batteries (AA, AAA)? If so try scavaging some from other things around the house. I had a dead battery in my meter for my hypo and ended up finding some in a remote control.

For food. if you can't get her to eat high carb stuff, maybe try low carb with a bit of syrup mixed in? I ended up going to turkey meat the other night.

Just keep testing

 

+3 now at 45 bgs However, she is most contented at the moment as she got some of Rex's food straight from the can! LOL
Washing her face as we speak. I mixed a little more Karo with the food. and she had a good 4 teaspoons of it. She would have eaten more, but didn't want to over do it.

 

Your feeding method sounds perfect. Remember to breathe too. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Hypos happen here every day, and syrup and small amounts of food work wonders. It will just mean a long morning for you - puts the labor in Labor Day!

 

Now make sure you tell her in no uncertain terms that she must NOT get used to all this special treatment and tasty foods. Sometimes I think mine go low just to get the gravy foods! I'll just bet she is sitting back all happy and preening.

I have a few meters; it's a good idea to have a spare or backup and strips too. Too many times, when you need something is the time you don't have it!

Keep testing and posting and go easy on the quantity of foods; you don't want her low but then too stuffed to eat anything.

 

Your ss is linked fine. Any luck finding new batteries?

 

Looks like I got the spreadsheet right this time. You'll see I did modify it a bit as i personally need to see the actual times to get it in my head. Hope it doesn't confuse. Thanks all!! She's been diabetic for over 5 yrs and we've NEVER had anything like this going on. Reason for the higher dose was that she had been on 2.75u of the vetzulin and results of tests from her hospital stay suggested she was being underdosed. We were just about to start the new one when she went into the hospital and started her on the Prozinc there. By Weds when she was released she was starting PS at about 350 and peaking at about 225, so we stayed with the 4u. However, as you see with the #s I don't think this is the one for her at all! Off to test her again.

 

Just because we always forget to mention it in the middle of things. (But maybe you know if you have been dealing with diabetes for 5 years!) You can expect a high number tomorrow with all the syrup and high carb foods. It doesn't mean she is high again. Go with a very reduced dose.

 

Where is CT are you? I'm in the northwest hills, as Jennifer said she's in Milford.

Maybe one of us is close enough that if you need supplies we can bring you some....

 

Stress at the vet can give her much higher bg's than she will have at home where she's relaxed and comfortable so the dose at the vet clinic might have been too high for her at home.

Harley is getting really good results from Prozinc. It took us a little while to figure it all out but now that we have (sort of) he has settled in nicely.

 

11:30 47bgs a little more food and a little more syrup mixed in. Little stinker jumped up on the table to see if there was more!! She's acting fine, but I know from all the info I've absorbed the last couple of days that could change fast. Of course I have a meter that has those flat batteries. Once I check her at noon, I'll go get some. thanks everyone! More later.

 

Did you see above that Carolyn & Jennifer are both nearby and offered to bring you supplies?

 

Jumped up for more of the tasty stuff, did she? But of course! Cats are smart so they go where they know the good stuff is found!

You can see how her numbers are taking their sweet time about rising, but she will soon enough.

Now's a good time to start thinking about what dose you need now; Sue and the others will be able to give you some guidelines there.

 

Hope no news is good news?

 

my apologies for going off the grid for a while. All seems well at this time and I think we are out of the woods for now. Have new batteries for the meter and have updated the spread sheet. Last reading 366. Now the ? remains what to do for tonite's shot. I'm thinking play it safe and give her 2u. Will contact the vet in the morning and see what he thinks as to keeping her on the prozinc for a bit with the changes or try something else.

 

Still catching up on all the posts. I remain overwhelmed by all the responses and am very appreciative of your concerns. Carolyn and Jennifer thank you for your offers. Carolyn, your in the northwest hills? so am I, in New Hartford, CT. Going back to catch up on all the information and get that food list out of what u all have found successful. Thanks again.

 

How much syrup did you end up giving her? If she had higher carb food and syrup for 3 hours or so, that will still influence her numbers. If I were you, I would play it very safe and give only one unit. Lots of times, coming off a hypo, a kitty is very sensitive to insulin. Better too high for a cycle than back in the 40s?

 

Sue-I would say I prob ended up giving her 1/2 tsp in total of the syrup and 4 or 5 tsp of the food (counting what she stole off the table) I haven't given her anything else since

 

You scared me when you dissappeared.

It isn't uncommon to skip the next shot after a hypo or give a very reduced dose as they are very sensitive to it after. The high numbers you are seeing now are sugar & HC spikes so tonight you wouldn't be shooting a true number. The fear is that the spike will wear off and she will have too much insulin on board again.

Better too high for a day than too low for a minute.

 

Well Hi! I'm in Goshen... so definitely not far away. Are you closer to Torrington or Winsted? If you ever need help, send me a PM, ok?

As the others have said, the higher number tonight is definitely not unexpected. I have not used ProZinc (I used PZI for years with my acrocat, but his dosing wasn't something you'll have to deal with so won't scare you with that), but will agree that a dose reduction is in order. Those with experience with this insulin can give you some opinions on what they'd do if this was their kitty.

You did really well today... (((((hugs))))) and treat yourself to a treat. You deserve it!

 

You can always start a new topic and ask for PZI dose advice after a hypo. Someone here will have had your experience and know.

 

Posted new topic on PZI page. Going to check where she is at now. She'll be due her pm shot shortly, so need to decide what to do.

 

Wow, great job getting through a scary day, yikes!

Personally I would stick with PZI - she is responding well :shock: and it's just a matter of figuring out a dose that keeps her in steadier #s. Switching insulins is sort-of a do-over, and you may or may not get steadier results. Nothing wrong with switching to Lantus or Levemir if you want to do that, but I think you are also fine to stay with PZI. I suspect you may be seeing variation based on her eating dry food - if she skips a snack one day vs. another, her BG#s could be radically different in response. That's what I found so tough with Bix on dry food since I let him free-feed - it was just too hard to know if he would be low or high on any given day. If his stomach was a little off - look out!

Did you already test & shoot for the evening shot? Your idea of 2u tonight sounds reasonable to me (but then so did shooting 3.5 today, so what do I know? :lol: ).

 

Maintaining two posts are going to be to confusing for me. So, I'm moving over to the PZI forum. Those wanting to follow up can check there. Thanks everyone!!

Rainbow and Little Girl Updates