Urgent Help Needed Pls - What Canned Food Is...

My baby, Blackie, has been diagnosed with diabetes in March of this year (2010), and as per the vet's direction, we've been feeding her Hill's Prescription W/D wet and dry (wet in the beginning and now she's strictly on the dry). I've been doing a fair amount of research with regards to the canned food, and have come across several websites that suggest feeding her the commercial canned food that you can get at the store, which is, as I'm sure you all know, is inexpensive compared to the stuff you get at the vet's. A couple of these websites were written by veterinarians themselves. One of these websites suggests to either feed her canned food or handmake it myself. I don't have a meat grinder, and from yet another website, finding the perfect balance of nutrients, including protein, is going to take some doing.

What I want to know is what canned cat food brand is the best? What do you all feed your diabetic babies?

Please... Any and all help and suggestions is extremely helpful right now. We need to get her back to the vet's tomorrow for yet another glucose check. We've been taking her in practically each week since she's been diagnosed. She's on 16 units of ProZinc a day and I want to start reversing that.

Thank you.

A very concerned kitty "Mom"

 

Hi, and welcome!

First off, could you remove the 'candle' icon from next to your topic? For those of us here, it means that your kitty has passed on, which is a very sad thing.

For nutritional information, the place to go are Janet and Binky's food charts here. Assuming there are no other health issues going on, you're looking for foods that are less than 10% carbohydrates (which will exclude almost all the dry foods).

However!! You should know that switching to a low-carb food *will* decrease the amount of insulin your cat needs. You should keep an eye on Blackie's blood sugar levels and reduce the amount of insulin you're giving accordingly.

The best way to track BG levels is to home-test Blackie's blood sugar levels yourself. It's convenient for you and for Blackie, it will give you a *tremendous* amount of control over his diabetes, increase his chances of going into remission (that's where his diabetes is controlled by diet alone and he no longer needs shots), is better for Blackie's health and will be cheaper for you as well. You can pick up a glucometer at any pharmacy; my first kit I got WalMart's ReliOn brand. It was $10 for the meter, $4 for a box of lancets, and $22 for 50 test strips. We have a post here with useful info on how to do home-testing, including videos.

Also, please read and print out this post here; this is Melissa and Popcorn's post on how to recognise and treat hypoglycemia at home. You may also want to check out Jojo's hypo toolkit.


Does your vet have you checking for ketones? Ketones are not-common but still possible side effect in any person or animal with unregulated / under-regulated diabetes. Small amounts of ketones may be treatable at home; large amounts of ketones may require hospitalisation in a 24-hour care facility. If you test for ketones at home, you can catch them early and hopefully avoid the expensive hospitalisation.

To test for ketones at home, pick up some ketostix from the diabetes section of your local pharmacy. (I've always found them in the aisle, though some folks report their pharmacist keep them behind the counter.) You test for ketones by sticking the the stick in fresh urine. If the stick changes color, ketones are present.


Finally, could you please tell us a little bit about Blackie's diabetes and treatment? We'd be interested in how much insulin he's getting and how frequently (is that 16 units once a day, 16 units twice a day, 8 units twice a day, etc). We'd also be interested in (roughly) how you got to his current dose: what dose did you start at, how long did you stay at that dose before you raised it, and how much it was raised by. All of this information can help us help Blackie -- and you.

And, again, welcome!

-- Jean and her Gwyn

 

Wow, that's a whopper of a dose--partly due to the high carb food your vet has you feeding.

If you're going to change food, you're going to have to watch that dose very carefully. I'd suggest getting a glucometer and learning how to home test before making any radical diet changes.

 

Okay, ouch!!! I just re-read your post and noticed that you're on 16 units of ProZinc. You've almost certainly overshot Blackie's optimal insulin dose -- the vast majority of cats get insulin twice a day, and get two or less units per shot. Only a very few get as much as 16 units a day.

Please let us know how you got to that dose (see questions above), and PLEASE, if you have any time at all this evening, run out and get a home-testing kit. That's a *huge* amount of insulin to give! While there are some cats who actually *do* need that much insulin, they all have other major conditions that trigger that need (acromegaly, Cushing's disease, etc).

And have you given Blackie his shot this evening? If so, please hold off until you can test.

Also, given the dose, please do NOT make any food changes until you've got the dosing under control.

 

holy crap that's a large dose of insulin!

pardon my wording but holy crap!

ok, we gotta get you some information on proper treatment of feline diabetes.

can you learn to hometest? quickly? like as in this weekend? it's real easy, and if you by chance live near any of us, we'll be glad to help you learn how.

by chance does your kitty have any other health problems? i ask because it's extremely rare for a cat to be given that much insulin and not end up in the emergency room. there are other diseases like acromegaly or cushings that can make a kitty need larger doses of insulin but without a disease like that in the picture, cats usually don't need more than a few units a day of insulin.

taking kitty in every so often to have the vet test the numbers is old school treatment and new research and treatment has shown that it is highly inaccurate because one number doesn't mean anything and stress plays a big part in the numbers vet's get in the clinic. thus the reason for hometesting.

now, to your specific question about food. alot of us here feed low carb varieties of Fancy Feast, Friskies, some 9Lives even and a few others. If you have a specialty pet store around you can get foods like Wellness too which is good for diabetics. oh yeah, Petco carries Wellness now i believe.

BUT, AND I'M CAPITALIZING THIS TO EMPHASIZE IT, DO NOT MAKE ANY DIETARY CHANGES WHATSOEVER WHILE KEEPING THAT DOSE OF INSULIN. YOU CAN KILL YOUR CAT VERY EASILY THAT WAY. OR AT LEAST END UP IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM. If you lower his carb intake yet leave the dose so high, you basically overdose the cat. Let's say you are feeding something that is 15% carbs and shooting that much insulin. If you could test him you get a number of 400. ok, he lived. Then if you lower his to a food that is 3% carbs let's say, thus lowering his glucose level alone by doing that an easy 150 pts let's say to 250, and you shoot the same amount of insulin.....see how it happens?? very very very dangerous.

let us help you learn about this disease and treatment please. there isn't a person here who wants to see a kitty in harm's way and we will help you every way we can to keep you guys safe.

(edited to change sex )

 

FWIW, one very common mistake that we see here is to treat diabetic cats as if they were small diabetic dogs. Unfortunately, cats and dogs process insulin very differently. The four ways this can manifest are:

1. Error: Starting dose is based on weight. If Blackie did not have ketones and your vet started you out on more than one unit of insulin, s/he was wrong. In general, cats should be started at no more than one unit at a time. (The only exception to this might be if Blackie had ketones or diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA).)

2. Error: Raising the dose too quickly. Cats need time to 'settle in' to their dose, usually 5-7 days. Unless Blackie had or develops ketones, sufficient time should be given for a dose to 'settle in' before giving any consideration to raising it.

3. Error raising dose by too much. Raising insulin dosages needs to be done carefully, with full consideration of the specific nuances of the insulin and how the cat reacts to it.

4. Error: Dosing once a day. Many dogs can get along fine with insulin shots just once a day, but cats have very fast metabolisms and almost always require twice-a-day dosing.


And, yeah, I know *exactly* how hard it's going to be for you to trust a bunch of random internet strangers on this sort of thing, instead of your vet that you've known and trusted for years ... but the only thing we care about is keeping all diabetic kitties as healthy as possible. And that includes Blackie.

 

W/D is junk and is basically used for weight reduction because of all the fiber in it. I thought by now at least the vets would be to the point where no one uses that food any more. Guess I'm dreaming.

Go buy a meter........Reli-On from Walmart is cheap and a good meter. Pick up extra test strips and lancets for poking the ear. Also, buy some KetoDiastix.......tests the urine for ketones and glucose. You do not need to spend more money going to that vet that is damn close to overdosing your kitty.

Buy some FF canned food, get some Friskies.......don't care......just make sure it is canned.

Drop that dose.....start over and go to b.i.d.....twice a day. Extremely rare a cat that gets buy on one shot a day.

Maybe find a new vet that is more up to date on feline diabetes.

As all the others have said........DO NOT switch to canned and give that dose......you are just begging for a major hypo to happen. High numbers a kitty can survive at much longer than one time at a hypo.

What city and town are you in? We all try and pitch in to help and someone may be near enough to you to show you how to hometest.

 

Some general food info:

The "best" canned food is the one that your cat will eat, that you can afford, and can find in the local stores.

There isn't any one brand recommended. Some popular brands members here feed their cats are Fancy Feast, Friskies, Wellness, Innova EVO, Merrick, and Nature's Variety Instinct. Try a few different brands to see what your cat likes and doesn't like.

Not all commerical canned foods are low in carbs for diabetic cats. Use these food charts: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html Look at the column for carbs and choose foods that have a number 10 or less. Feed fish/seafood only once in awhile because some types of fish may contain mercury and fish/seafood in general tends to be high in phosphorus which can be hard on the kidneys.

Feed low carb treats as well. Most commerical big name brands are filled with high carb unhealthy ingredients. Here is a list of popular low carb treats: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9172

You don't have to make your own raw food with a grinder and measuring out various supplements, etc.

There are lots of commerical brands of raw (frozen and freeze dried) pet foods you can buy. Look for those that are grain-free. Nature's Variety has a line of frozen and freeze dried food. I think most people here use frozen commerical raw pet food.

Another option is to use a pre-mix with your own store-bought raw meat (ground or chopped into small pieces). The pre-mix contains all the essential vitamins and minerals your cat needs. The directions on the package will tell you how much pre-mix to use with how much raw meat. You just mix it all together and feed. You can freeze the prepared raw mix for later use. Feline Future is one brand of pre-mix: http://www.felinefuture.com/ Another one is Better In The Raw: http://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/cat_fo ... in_the_raw

As others have already said, DO NOT change the diet until you have learned how to test your cat's blood glucose levels at home. 8 units twice a day is a HUGE dose for most cats. The junky W/D food is possibly the only reason why your cat hasn't had a serious hypoglycemic episode.

 

Ok, I've read all the posts, and believe me when I say that I won't be having her on the same amount of dosage when the new food is introduced. It's only common sense.

Blackie's history:

In March of this year, I noticed her drinking a lot of water 2 days in a row (Thursday and Friday). Mentioned this to hubby and that Saturday we took her in to do a full blood work on her. Everything check out fine, except for the diabetes. I suspected as such.

She was immediately put on Glipizde pill. Went back in the following weekend, increased her dosage to 1.5. I can't remember if this was once a day or twice a day. The pills didn't work as she started vomiting. Put her on Vetsulin. Found out after some time the Vetsulin was recalled. Put her on ProZinc. She's been increased pretty much each week. Almost 3 weeks ago (it'll be 3 weeks tomorrow), she was on 6 units 2x a day. Last weekend, her glucose level was 621. Vet said to increase it to 8 units 2x a day. She doesn't get 16 units 2x a day. Even for a novice diabetic cat owner such as myself, that would be ludicrious. Heck, I even think 16 units a day (8 units 2x a day) is way too much.

There are 3 vets at the clinic. 1 of them told us to not buy a meter and that they want to do the testing themselves. The 2nd vet has been closely monitoring her levels and we see him more often. The 3rd one tried to stick her with a BENT needle, and ended up making her bleed. My husband and I were not happy, and hopefully won't get him again.

I'll be talking to the vet about the diet change tomorrow, and I know better than to instantly switch her to the wet food. It's to be done on a gradual basis. Just like switching a horse food. You switch them instantly, the horse could colic. I'll also talk to him about us getting a meter, too. As it is, the constant vet visits is getting way too much for us 3 (Blackie, my husband and myself).

Oh, and I live in North Texas, in answer to someone's question.

So, I can purchase the Fancy Feast? Is there any particular flavor that is higher in protein than the others? Or does it matter?

 

The 'classic' fancy feast flavors are the ones that are grain free and low in carbohydrates. Avoid anything with 'Gravy' in the title, definitely!

Here is a link to the Janet & Binky food charts (which list protein, fat, carb... etc contents)

The FF flavors you want off the top of my head are:

Classic Liver and Chicken feast
Chopped Grill
Flaked Fish and Shrimp
Classic Turkey and Giblets feast
Classic Tender Beef feast

(there are more - I just can't remember the new names for them now)

 

Hi & welcome!

You've gotten lots of great advice so I won't add too much, but just wanted to be sure you are not getting too overwhelmed. It can be a lot to take in all the advice, especially when it might not agree with what your vet has been telling you (been there!!!). Home-testing can be overwhelming, it took me weeks to get brave enough to even try it. I don't know too much about the food stuff so will leave those answers to others.

We usually recommend that people raise the dose in 1/2 unit increments, because it is so easy to miss the right dose. Of course every cat is different (ECID), but with my cat, just for reference, he needed around 4u BID when he ate dry food, and when I switched him to canned, it dropped within a few days down to around 1u. Personally, I would drop your dose down immediately, even with the dry food, unless your vet has diagnosed him with a specific condition like Acromegaly (sp?) that generally requires high doses. If your vet suspects something like that but hasn't run the tests, I'd get the tests done if I could afford it.

The 621 could be a rebound # (i.e. if the 6u was already too high a dose), and then jumping up 2u is a big jump. My cat reacts significantly to changes of even 1/4 unit - small amounts of PZI seem to really make a difference. Don't mean to sound critical at all, that's just what I would do - drop the dose probably in half, learn how to home test & get some data while transitioning to canned food and adjusting the dose as needed based on the data I was getting. And test for ketones as well during that transition. Sometimes it's not appropriate to drop the dose like that without getting data first, but given that it looks to me like your vet raised the dose too quickly and in increments that were too large, I would reduce the dose in this case. Just my 2c.

(ETA: I think the W/D is higher carb than the M/D we were on at 4u, so the higher dose may well be needed to counteract the carbs. In any case though, until you are able to master home-testing and get some good data to go on, I'd rather see you do a switch to canned food and a do-over starting at 1unit BID, than stick with known high carb food and scary-high dose.)

Home testing can be a challenge at first, but once you get the hang of it it's pretty easy, and many of us have found it is really a good bonding time with our kitties. I started home testing at my vets prompting simply b/c I couldn't afford the clinic testing, and I have been really happy I did that. The tests are more reliable at home, as well as more affordable, and it makes it WAY easier to figure out what dose you should be giving on a day-to-day basis.

Please keep us posted how things are going!

 

I don't think anyone has mentioned that often bg levels taken at the vet's office are artifically high - noises, smells, the ride in the car, many people who are NOT the mommy.... So the 2nd vet who would like you to come in often to have tests taken isn't considering the stress your kitty is under. (And the stress your wallet is experiencing.)

If I were you, I would start hometesting first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 video for hometesting Once I had that down, I would change the food to wet, lo carb and test religiously. (It might even be best to cut the dose way back when you get the first two changes down. Some of the people who use ProZinc can give you the best advice on that.)

That, at least, gives you some idea of what you are dealing. If, with diet change and dosage change, you don't see an improvement, it could be that you have a kitty with other issues. But my bet is that those two things will turn this around.

 

Good to know :smile: The board always worries about newbies just going ahead with the food change without hometesting and ending up with a cat in the ER because of a hypo.

Fancy Feast is just fine :thumbup The key for diet in general is low carb. The list of Fancy Feast is on the "old" canned food chart while the Elegant Medley ones are on the "new" canned food chart. Most of the Elegant Medley ones are a little too high in carbs anyways.

Here is a list of low carb gluten-free Fancy Feast: http://www.felinediabetes.com/glutenfree.htm

Keep a few cans of high carb canned food in the house to use for hypos. The high carbs will raise blood glucose levels up. The junk W/D canned will is good but once you run out of that, buy any commerical brand. The gravy based Fancy Feast (grilled and sliced varieties) are good. Basically anything that has a 18 or more in the carb column of the food chart will work. Keep honey or corn syrup or pancake syrup in your kitchen, too, to use for hypos.

 

There are two things going on that may be affecting Blackie's blood sugar readings. The first is called vet stress. Basically, the cat is unhappy at going to the vet's, which raises the blood sugar levels. But when the cat comes home and calms down, their blood sugar goes back to normal. If you decide to raise the dose based solely on readings taken at the vet's, you are definitely at risk for raising the insulin dose too much.

The second thing that may be happening is called rebound. Basically, too much insulin is given, the blood sugar goes too low, and the body panicks and dumps a bunch of stored sugar into the bloodstream. Because it was a panicked, uncontrolled sugar dump, the blood sugar levels go even higher. If you increase doses based on that panicked, sugar-dumped reading, you're going the wrong way. Even worse, the the body *will* eventually run out of sugar stored in the body, and your cat *WILL* hypo and could die. That's why everyone here is kinda panicking at not knowing what Blackie's blood sugar readings are at the moment. *Please* consider learning to home-test. It *can* and DOES save the lives of cats.

Also, please read the information on hypos that I linked to previously (Melissa&Popcorn's post on recognising and treating them, and Jojo's on making sure you have the tools on hand).


If there's a vet that you prefer to see, that's easy enough to handle. When you call in to make your appointment, just say, "I'd like to make an appointment with Dr. XXX, please." That way you won't get stuck with the vet(s) you don't prefer. Of course, if it's an emergency, you go with the vet they have available. But even if you're in an appointment with one vet, if something sounds wrong, you can say, "Dr. XXX is a little more familiar with Blackie's history; could you please ask him/her what they think about your suggestion?"


I know we have folks in Texas, though I'm not sure whether any of them are near you. Could you tell us the name of a reasonably close large town or city?

 

Hi Magnetlady...I'm new here also...
My biggest suggestion would be to read and print out "Convert a Vet" and give a copy to the vet office. I would also think about getting a different vet or insisting on only seeing the one there that you all can agree on treatment.
It is absolutely ridiculous that they have you coming in every freekin week...guess someone wants to go to the Islands on you for vacation :/

Good luck...

 

Welcome! You have come to the right place, we can help you with Blackie.

We use ProZinc, and unfortunately our vet would have done the same thing to Mr Tinkles if I had not found this site and learned what an appropriate dose and dose increase should be. She told me that a typical dose was 5-8u BID for a regulated cat. The vets seem to have gotten very poor information about ProZinc, and think it can started at a higher dose, and increased in 1u (or more) increments. That is bad information, and dangerous. ProZinc should be started at 1.0u BID, and increased at no more than 0.25u at a time. We started on 2.0u because Tinkles BG was so high, but I have never dosed above 2.5u BID...and we started at BG levels of 600. Small changes in dose can give you big effects with ProZinc. The dose Blackie is on is way, way over a reasonable amount, and I would decrease it immediately, tonight.

Please get a meter and learn to home test. I have the Relion Confirm, the Micro is also very good. It's a good reliable inexpensive meter. There are other choices, some mail order, but the most important thing is to get a good meter and start home testing ASAP. Get the ketodiastix too, and test his urine. You won't be sorry.

I know all of this is probably overwhelming, but you can do all of this, and it WILL make Blackie healthier. If you home test, you won't need to take him in for blood glucose checks every week, because you will have daily, more accurate BG level information than the vet can ever get. Remember that the vet is supposed to be helping YOU treat your cat. You don't need the vet's permission to home test. My vet also told me that I would "stress" my cat by home testing, that they could get a better picture of how he was doing by testing him themselves. Once she saw my spreadsheet with the test results, she said that there was no point in doing the fructosamine tests. The vets are not experts in FD, and if you want your cat to be healthy and have the best chance of going into remission, you need to take control of managing his care with the vet's assistance. That's what this site is all about.

 

Hi and welcome.

I just want to add one thing, ok maybe two things LOL.

First, there is something called acromolegy and IAA or something like that, which a cat who has this, will require a high dose of insulin, which can be upwards of 30 units. Yes, I wrote 30. However, this is determined by very specific tests that are sent to a specialty lab. I don't have all the details, but cats that have this problem are tested and diagnosed and with lots of home testing and careful monitoring will go up the dosing scale.

What you describe as how you arrived at this dose is well, a vet who it seems does not understand diabetes in cats.

So, as many others already said, you need to remove the dry food, get rid of the prescription garbage, get a meter, test strips, lancets, etc. and once you do that, then start over at 1 unit. With home testing and food change, you will have a better handle on when to change the dose.

And if you do end up at 6 or 8 units again, well then you arrived there safely and with data collected to understand why. And if you get to that high a dose, then I would suggest getting the acromolegy tests to find out if you have an acro cat or not. And if you do, we have many people here who can provide tailored and specific guidance for that.

My last suggestion, as I don't see it mentioned anywhere, are you testing for ketones? Did the vet even mention this to you? My guess is no and no. So, when you go to the pharmacy or walmart or where ever to get your meter, pick up ketostix or keto diastix. They are found in the diabetes section.

Then you will use this to test the cat's urine for ketones. If you can catch him peeing, put the stick under the urine stream, if you cannot, we have tricks on how to catch pee before it hits the litter and can't be tested. Come back and we'll provide that information.

Oh and welcome to the group!

 

There's gals on here for sure from Abilene, Arlington, Austin, Dallas, Denton, Galveston, Houston, Irving, Keller, Keman, and Seabrook that I'm familiar with. I'm sure there's more in Texas but that's who I've got on my member's list (we pooled together a member's list a while back so we'd know who was where when help was needed)

 

And Garland - don't forget Garland


~M

 

Hi there!

I am in Coppell - I'm not sure exactly where you are, but if it's somewhere in the metroplex, I would be glad to come show you how to test and maybe answer questions you might have. Just let me know.

 

hello. i am still very new to this also, but when we started i was doing the same thing you were. going to the vet every week just to get the news that we needed to up his does again. then i took charge... changed his diet to wet fancy feast only and started his insulin over a 1 unit, and started home testing. best decision i have ever made. (also took away a lot of the worry of not knowing). My kitty squishy has been doing pretty well with everything that has happened in the last month, and i have all the confidence it will just keep getting better. i really dont have any advice for you, as i am still new to this sugar dance also, but i just thought i would share a little bit of my experience so far. my vet was a little put off by me home testing, but after i talked to them for a little they were happy i was doing it, and told me it was great to see i was being in control of everything. it does get easier, and for me it is a little easier you still worry non stop, not sure when that will go away. but the diet, insulin change plus home testing definitely made things better for squishy and i. i hope all things are going well. keep posting... i know i do, and i always get great advice and opinions..

 

16u of any PZI [or I think any insulin actually] is the highest dose I've ever seen on this board [but I'm not a super long timer]. You have gotten some great input and I encourage you do the home testing and get Kitty on the low carb wet ONLY diet [less than 9-10% carbs as %Kcal] from J&B's list here:
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html
You'll probably also want to reduce the dose when you change foods. The usual recommendation is to home test and reduce back to 1u when the food change is made.

IMHO, Laurie could not be more right about small changes and ProZinc.