Dosing adviser clarification

As I read Rebecca's post, I take it to mean that "dosing advisors," as that term is currently used, are prohibited. That should not change your interaction with members in LL. What it will change is the possibility someone could misconstrue what a "dosing advisor" is, and errorenously believe they are receiving advise from a vet, vet tech, etc. There is nothing in Rebecca's post, at least as I read it, that prohibits other board members from expressing their views as a lay person with expereince caring for diabetic cats, providing research or links to relevant articles, etc. In other words, Rebecca is trying to avoid someone seeking assistance on the board, receiving information from a "dosing advisor," assuming the "dosing advisor" is a vet professional, and then when something goes wrong, seeking redress against Rebecca, the LLC, etc.

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I closed the other thread but that doesn't mean I think discussion should be closed. So, here we go again.

First of all, I am very impressed by the thought and eloquence of so many of the posts in the related thread. (I used the Green Man to mark this topic the same way to alert people the threads are related.) And you guys were pretty darned nice and respectful, too! By the way, if no one picked up on it, there IS a document that we keep around, called Suggestions for Advice Givers, found in the Announcements forum now at http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/suggestions-for-advice-givers.176955/

The main reason for this post is to discuss the gist of the quote above. I truly think "dosing adviser" is a very dangerous term and I do want to ban the term. Anyone involved in such a dosing group is not being chastized for expressing opinions or for the hard work and knowledge they contribute to this site. Not at all. I absolutely do not want people to quit giving advice or just expressing opinions. Absolutely not. The board wouldn't be an open, peer review organ if we did that. If anyone wants to form a cooperative to express opinions, more power to the effort you put into this board. BUT..... any groups who publicize themselves need to give a very non-medical sounding name to their group. (is there a lawyer in the house?) You can be The Group of Eleven, the Experienced Veterans, the Crazy Cat Ladies, the Lantus La-Las, I don't care. But nothing that sounds exclusive and definitely nothing that can be misconstrued as people licensed to give medical advice. AND ... if such groups out themselves, especially in something like a sticky, they must include a disclaimer that states they are not licensed medical professionals and that veterinary care is crucial and that they are simply expressing opinions based on their own knowledge and experience and that other opinions expressed may be equally or more valid. Enough ands for you? (Where is that darned lawyer???) I will work on putting such a disclaimer on each page of the FDMB, rather like the one that is on each page of the remainder of felinediabetes.com.

It's a scary world of liability and unkindness out there. Let's be careful!

Hugs,
Rebecca
drinking11

THANKS, JANA, FOR THIS ADDITION:

Re: Dosing adviser clarification

Postby Jana + BK + Chester » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:30 pm
Yes, there is a lawyer in the house...and she is going to tell you what a great job of explaining you were doing, until you got to the part about forming cooperatives or other groups. Rebecca, there isn't a less-than-blunt way to put this, so I'm just going to say it...BAD IDEA! Anytime you sanction the formation of cooperatives or groups that will, by definition, come to be known by certain chracteristics, members, names, etc. (that, by the way, you can't control), you are heading down the same road that "dosing advisor" passed over.

Disclaimers will help, but they are not the best solution (do you have any idea how many times people say 'I didn't read that,' and a court has found it to be an acceptable excuse?). The best solution is for cooperatives and identified groups such as you are proposing to be avoided.

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Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure the sheer number of registrations in the short time the new board has been active is confirmation of how much this board and the people that provide assistance are needed.

Yes, there is a lawyer in the house...and she is going to tell you what a great job of explaining you were doing, until you got to the part about forming cooperatives or other groups. Rebecca, there isn't a less-than-blunt way to put this, so I'm just going to say it...BAD IDEA! Anytime you sanction the formation of cooperatives or groups that will, by definition, come to be known by certain chracteristics, members, names, etc. (that, by the way, you can't control), you are heading down the same road that "dosing advisor" passed over.

Disclaimers will help, but they are not the best solution (do you have any idea how many times people say 'I didn't read that,' and a court has found it to be an acceptable excuse?). The best solution is for cooperatives and identified groups such as you are proposing to be avoided.

Can't we just all get along?

webmaster said:

You can be The Group of Eleven, the Experienced Veterans, the Crazy Cat Ladies, the Lantus La-Las, I don't care. But nothing that sounds exclusive and definitely nothing that can be misconstrued as people licensed to give medical advice.

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I think this sounds like a wonderful solution. I think I had a small heart attack at the thought of not having d*sing adv*sors ( ;-) ) in Lantus Land anymore.

I honestly don't see a reason to make a group of anything officially. As long as consulting happens in the open and is open ended I would think that should cover it. But I suppose now the most experienced people are going to be all gunshy because of the drama. I hope not, but I guess that will be up to them. I think you have been very clear here and it *should* clear up most confusion.

Thanks for posting Suggestions for Advice Givers, Rebecca. You may have noticed that I also put a freshly-formatted copy in Health.

Jana, I find something perversely amusing about a lawyer writing "Can't we just all get along?" I think the evidence is already in! (Since we're quoting the Bible today, I refer you to chapter 4 of Genesis.) :lol:

-- Janet

Janet & Binky (GA) said:

Thanks for posting Suggestions for Advice Givers, Rebecca. You may have noticed that I also put a freshly-formatted copy in Health.

Jana, I find something perversely amusing about a lawyer writing "Can't we just all get along?" I think the evidence is already in! (Since we're quoting the Bible today, I refer you to chapter 4 of Genesis.) :lol

-- Janet

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I suppose the world would be too boring if we all agreed on everything all the time. At least, that's what I tell myself.

Janet & Binky (GA) said:

Thanks for posting Suggestions for Advice Givers, Rebecca. You may have noticed that I also put a freshly-formatted copy in Health.

Jana, I find something perversely amusing about a lawyer writing "Can't we just all get along?" I think the evidence is already in! (Since we're quoting the Bible today, I refer you to chapter 4 of Genesis.) :lol:

-- Janet

Click to expand...

Actually I believe the evidence is in...with a few notable exceptions, and as mentioned by Rebecca, everyone was doing pretty well with each other. I am too tired to try and figure out the Cain and Abel reference, but am pleased that something as simple as my post above can bring you perverse amusement.

I'm glad you opened this thread, Rebecca. I know you work very hard, and especially lately, on keeping these boards available to us. And I read through the thread that got closed last night, and wanted to make a post, but the thread was closed.

Here's where I, a newbie, stands. I'm a student nurse, and I understand this disease. I just don't understand it in cats; there are huge similarities, but not enough for me to feel confident when my cat goes over 500 unexpectedly, like she did last night. And when I'm on the floor, I can grab a more experienced nurse and/or Dr., and get "advice" from them, even if the patient is not theirs. The patient is mine, and I'm wholly responsible in the treatment I give...good or bad.

Translating that to catworld diabetes, again, I am wholly responsible in what treatment I provide to my cat. No-one else, just me. What she eats, what times I test, what I shoot...all on my shoulders. What has been missing is being able to reach out to those more experienced and getting advice, opinions, thoughts, ideas. In the end, though, it's me that a) has to care for Esse, and b) am totally responsible as to what I do or don't do.

If I had relied solely on my vet, Esse would likely have been quite dead by now. The advice I was given was to shoot 4 units bid of Humulin N, no home testing needed, and leave out dry food if I wanted to. I went round and round with my vet...but only because of my nursing background did I know that something was not right with those directions. I didn't know quite what was wrong, but just that something was wrong. I went ahead and did it, but also decided to home test anyway (you never shoot people blind, why should I shoot a cat blind??). She hypo'd. The vet didn't believe me. I reduced the dose on my own, and still she hypo'd. I asked for a sliding scale, and was told to shoot the whole dose if she was over 300, but nothing if she was under 300. And that did not make any sense to me at all. So I made a fuss, and got bumped to the clinic's directing vet.

I managed to convince her that the insulin was wrong for Esse, and could we please do something else, like Lantus. She switched us, but wanted to go back to 4 units. I flat out told her no, and she said that if I was unwilling to follow her advice, she'd note the chart so she wouldn't get sued. She accused me of giving fur shots when Esse's numbers were high; and she informed me that there was no need to go to an "only wet food" diet. After a time, we negotiated a 3 unit bid dose, but she again said I shouldn't home test, just shoot. I didn't bother telling her that I won't shoot blind...she also said that somogyi effect in cats is very rare, and that some vets do not believe it exists. And she said she'd rather me not shoot anything under 300, and a full dose above 300...and that she'd rather me go for regulation rather than remission.

And still another vet, at the emergency pet hospital that I went to when I caught Esse throwing ketones, informed me that my testing her all the time was "not Munchausen by proxy, but pretty darned close."

I found the Tilly protocol. I found this place. I took Esse off all insulin, and started her back on 1 unit. And with the help of those far more experienced than me, and apparently far more experienced than my vets, I am slowly finding Esse's proper dosage. There have been surprises, there have been scares, but what I find invaluable - literally the reason I stay here - is that I know I can come here and ask for "eyes", and get some good, sound, experienced advice and help from those who've been in my shoes and whose cats have been in Esse's paws. Is the road smooth for Esse? Nope, not in the least. But at least when she throws something unexpected, I can get some help to get her through it, and safely to the other side.

If I had relied solely on those licensed professionals, I'd probably not have Esse right now. If I didn't have the ability to question drs and 'those in authority', I'd probably have killed my cat by now. Instead, I struggle along, knowing that this road is not smooth, but it is doable...and that I can get help when I encounter some unexpected issue (like a 531), and discuss the options with those with more experience than I.

I want the dosing advisors. I don't care what they're called; to me, they're angels. They've helped me understand things, and learn things, and have given guidance that I've found invaluable. Proof positive of their effectiveness is that Esse is still here...

Does that mean I don't question them? Not at all. In the beginning of this post I said, and I'll say it here, it's up to me what I choose to do with my cat. I'm responsible for what happens to her. But if I blindly did what my vets told me to do, there would be no reason for me to be posting here...Esse'd be gone.

And I don't think I'm alone in that thought.

Thanks for giving me a chance to say that...and I think, if a way could be found to balance the needs of the newbies like me with the legalities, it would be a phenomenal thing. Keep looking for it; it exists somehow...maybe a disclaimer on everyone's account that we have to click (like an end-user licensing agreement) before we can post...I dunno. I just know there is a solution wherein all can be satisfied, and needs met from the newbies standpoint and the pay-it-forward can continue...because FDMB has become something very special, and valuable; and a lot of that is from the posters' contribution to each other.

Best-
Michele and Esse

Well, as another newbie here, I also want to report a near-heart-attack last night at the thought of losing this. I am not a medical professional and I know that (almost) no one here is either. But I also know that you can't expect most vets to specialize in diabetes enough to have the information at their fingertips that people here do.

Would any of these things help?

1) Have each user apply for membership to an ISG in a clear "gateway" area. They would need to include in their application an acknowledgment of an FDMB official statement saying that this is a supposrt community, not a medical or veterinary one.

2) I am in another peer review kind of group. We have the ability to rate (anonymously) the advice given and people who give advice have a rating from 1 to 5. I know this is controversial, and invites some gaming, but it's just a thought.

3) Ask people to, in some way, acknowledge that what they are joining here is a sort of informal data-gathering group. That by posting their ss and keeping their condos up to date, they are contributing data and at the same time will receive opinions from people who have done this earlier about what that data means IN LIGHT OF THE OTHER DATA collected over the years.

BTW, here is what I said this morning in my post in LL:
"And I want to add a word or two about the helpful people here. Whatever you call them, I am grateful for their help and fully aware that this is their opinion, only, and not veterinary advice. I am a scientist by training, and I value their experience with the numbers and the insights that the experience gives them. I know that in the end, it is my job to make the decisions about my kitty but I am grateful to have some people willing to put the data into context for me and tell me what they would do--and have done--in the situation."

"If I had relied solely on those licensed professionals, I'd probably not have Esse right now. If I didn't have the ability to question drs and 'those in authority', I'd probably have killed my cat by now. Instead, I struggle along, knowing that this road is not smooth, but it is doable...and that I can get help when I encounter some unexpected issue (like a 531), and discuss the options with those with more experience than I.

I want the dosing advisors. I don't care what they're called; to me, they're angels. They've helped me understand things, and learn things, and have given guidance that I've found invaluable. Proof positive of their effectiveness is that Esse is still here..."

Michele, I couldn't have said it better myself....that's why I quoted you. And I love the idea about maybe clicking a box to indicate that we have read, understand and agree to these terms.....disclaimer. Geez, I click one every time I pay a bill online.

And just to clarify, the dosing advisors did not label themselves as "advisors", they are experts:
–noun
1. a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority: a language expert.
–adjective
3. possessing special skill or knowledge; trained by practice; skillful or skilled (often fol. by in or at): an expert driver; to be expert at driving a car.
4. pertaining to, coming from, or characteristic of an expert: expert work; expert advice.
–verb (used with object)
5. to act as an expert for.

I'm fine with the the title of "expert" and I'm also fine with the fact that Punkin is sitting right here, kneading my leg with her sharp, painful claws because of the knowledge and help I've received from said experts.

Sincerely,
Jackie and Punkin.

we love Lantus Land and our Team J et al.

Our story is quite similar to Michele and Esse's story. I came on the board in March 2007, scared to death. Now, I didn't have to fight my vet like Michele did, I just needed to be proactive. My baby, who I've had practically my entire adult life (adopted him when he was 1 and I was 19, and in 2007, he was 13) had developed hepatic lipidosis, acute/chronic pancreatitis, and DKA. He needed 8 days in critical care in order to be sent home with the instructions to shoot 2U Lantus BID, along with a host of other meds, and no mention of hometesting.

I love the vets I've worked with at the vet hospital. But, when he didn't seem to be responding to 2U, we went up to 3U. A week later, we were up to 4U. That's when I started posting here, and many caring members posted messages to me, urging me to hometest and to lower the dose. I won't lie, those posts scared me. They SHOULD HAVE. I was shooting blindly. I am sure that had I not gone out and bought a testing kit, that I would've kept shooting the same dose of 4U BID. (It turns out it wasn't too much insulin, and thank GOODNESS Jojo came along and explained why he needed all that insulin).

Lantus land quickly welcomed me. Jojo stayed up with me many nights, coaching me through the high numbers, trying to make sure my baby didn't develop ketones again. She even defended me when I was still feeding dry food (gasp!) b/c she understood that Cosmo was recovering from hepatic lipidosis. She helped me learn how to use R with Cosmo when he needed it, then held my hand as I shot it. Then she had to hold my hand some more as he got better and went down the dosing scale in a hurry.

Back then, I guess we didn't call Team J the dosing advisors or dosing team as much, we usually just called them Jill, Jojo or Team J. With life happening, Lantus Land has had to evolve, with long time members helping to shoulder the burden. These members are those who have read and studied the dosing protocols, and been around reading condos, studying spreadsheets, and learning how lantus and levemir work. I am so grateful and so impressed with all of them, and applaud their devotion to the cats and beans who ask for help in Lantus Land.

Now, he's all bcatrun_gif and cat_pet_icon

I guess my question is... if we can't use any kind of group designation, how do we let new people know who has the experience and who doesn't? If I were new to the board now, I would want to know the difference between those who have never treated a diabetic cat, to those who've been around for 2 yrs, 8 yrs, etc.

I sincerely hope that this issue is just a question of semantics. That instead of "dosing advisors" we can instead call them "pieces of eight" or Team HO, or TW3. :lol: and keep on keeping on.

I want to add my voice to those of the others who owe the life and well-being of my cat to the volunteers in the Lantus ISG who have supported and advised me over the years I have been dealing with a diabetic/multi health issue cat. I did lurk on the board for many months before being encouraged to post in Lantus, and I have never looked back. There is nothing like the daily support from people who know your cat. My cat would not be alive today without them, period. I also have a very skilled and compassionate vet who works very closely with me. She has deferred the day to day management of Bear's diabetes to me, knowing that I am getting input from an internet group, and because she can see that he is being well taken care of. And yes, I weigh the input I get, and realize that it is my decision to inject insulin, and it is my decision as to how much I inject. Not too long ago, some posters on Lantus were quite insistent, from the behaviour I described, that Bear must be hyperthyroid. I asked my vet about it twice, and she said that he just did not have the symptoms. Finally, I asked her a third time, as the people who know about these things insisted that it didn't sound right, and she agreed to test him. Yep, he's hyperthyroid, very much so. This past week, another poster flagged an interaction between two drugs that Bear is on. My vet posted a question on her board to a veterinary pharmacologist, who confirmed the information. Now, when I ask her about something (perhaps something my Board members have pointed out), she says that she doesn't think that's an issue, but that she has been wrong before, and freely admits that. When discussion of a drug or issue that she is not familiar with comes up, she asks me what people who use it on the Board have said about it (and then researches it herself, of course). She has a lot of respect for what I come away with from here. I have had support on many, many occasions from Lantus Land members through many difficult days and nights with a sick kitty, and times I thought I was going to lose him. I also want to thank those on the general board who have posted replies to questions on Health, Tech, or other places. I had some bad moments last night when I thought that what we have here was being placed in jeopardy. I hope that we can make some changes in terminology, satisfy the legal requirements, but not lose the very valuable resource that we have, thanks to Rebecca and all the regular posters on Lantus and on the Board. I kiss the ground (or whatever it is you kiss for internet boards) for this place. Please let it be O.K.

Luna and me and the LL Team

With the support and encouragement from Jojo back in October, Luna and I came along and joined the Lantus forum after a unhealthy, unsafe roller coaster ride on Caninsulin for 2 miserable months.

I have been thru 3 vets, the 1st couldn't make up his mind about tests and what not, the second one told me repeatedly
"one day you will come home and you're cat will be dead"
not to mention the discouraging phrase
"you do not have my blessing"
- what vet says that?

One who would not let me make my own decisions on the treatment of my cat based on my observations that he couldn't see at home. Hypo.
Found a new vet - and one who encouraged me to try Lantus - although she as most vets - has very limited experience with Lantus much less Feline Diabetes, I chose to stick with her as she was willing to be our vet.
I informed her I was receiving support and educating myself from an internet site called Feline Diabetes Members Board.
She was fine with that as long as I could give her updates on Luna. As we began on Lantus, she was very pleased with the results that she saw on Luna's spreadsheet.

So our journey began on Lantus. Our new vet recommended a 1.5u start, which I opposed due to my initial feelings of Luna's reaction to higher doses. 1.5u isn't much - it isn't considered a high dose by far.
I expressed my concerns in the Lantus forum and it was suggested to me to go with 1u or .75u.
I was urged many times in that first week in the Lantus forum - read the stickies - read about the Tilly Protocol which I did.
I chose to begin at .75u. We took a brief trip to 1u but it was too much for Luna.
Over the last 3 months we are now at what we call "fat zero". A single fat drop of insulin. How often do you see that?

It is is now 6 months as of January 10th, that Luna has been on insulin, first Caninsulin and then Lantus.

With much support, hand-holding and the wise experience of those we call Team J and which I call LL Team, I am proud to say I am forever grateful to this amazing group of experienced, supportive caregivers - who may not be official specialists - but in my heart - they are and will always be Luna's lifeline.

Without this team who steps in daily - taking time out of their own lives to help and support us and our precious kitties, Luna and I would still be on that roller coaster of ups and downs.
Without that talk one day with Jojo, Luna and I would be nowhere near where we stand today.
Without them, Luna would not be the healthy happy kitty he is today - as he once was before this disease took over.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart - and please let them continue what they do best - guiding and supporting us to get our cats back to being the happy pets they once were.

The choices we make are our own and I for one am solely responsible for the well-being of Luna. Edit to add: But - I couldn't of this without the LL Team.

Signed,
Ronnie Majika

I must say ditto to all that has been said here--As far as Lantus forum, it's record speaks for itself..
I cannot imagine it without some form of experienced members to help in situations that seem complicated..Knowledge is power! Being in another forum type group, use our experiences to give advice & if we didnt experience it, we dont advise it...

I have been on 2 other forums here on FDMB and there are always one or more members who stand out & give more suggestions than the others-Lantus is just lucky, as we are the largest group & have so many wonderful, experienced members..

Rebecca, you must know the amazing Blessing this site is for FD cats & owners..Your work has saved hundreds of cats' lives..
Let's continue your good work--Maybe have a vet or trained profssional on here to give some ideas, at certain times, or days?? More than has been?
Thanks for all that's being done here--Thanks for helping me & my cat. Ever Grateful...

Great posts. Michele, it is especially clear in your post how essential it is for experienced caregivers to continue to advise. It seems like more people than not have the difficult vet experience when it comes to diabetes. It seems from 3 or so years of reading this board, that is almost the "typical" experience. I wish it were not so, but it seems to be the case. In some ways it only makes sense when they are dealing with many other typical ailments and aren't able to focus as is a person who actually has to treat diabetes. I want to point out, as all here often do, my friend has a little girl who was diagnosed as diabetic at 15 months. It was overwhelming. In the beginning, the numbers get fed back to a team of doctors for advisement, but I remember her clearly saying the doctors still told her, you have to learn to make these decisions from the data because no one knows your daughter like you do. It's really the same thing here, but most vets seem to just dole out "give X amount of this insulin", stick them on some prescription food and that's it. The fact is, most vets aren't prepared to actually treat and manage diabetes in cats. They aren't prepared to advise their clients on an ongoing basis based on data retrieved. I understand not all cat owners want to go this route, but at least *find out*. It seems like instead, most (if they have any knowledge of the hometesting studies) assume clients don't want to do this or try and they hand out one vet school answer, pat the client on the head and move on. The other thing is, a human diabetic gets a near 24 hour support in the beginning from their medical team. We all know how overwhelming it is. It's just almost imperative, if for nothing more than venting, but also on decision making. Pet parents don't get that. That is why there is SUCH a dire need for this board and it's cadre of people who have lived with and treated this disease for years.

Thank you for the clarification, Rebecca

I can certainly understand why the term itself would be controversial and could even be seen as a legal issue were something like that to ever come up.

I am guilty of using the term myself, without much (any) thought or regard to legal consequences.

The important thing is that the L team, and the teams on all the other insulin groups (yes, they've been on every insulin group since I first joined whether acknowledged or not) will be allowed to continue their practice of helping owners to save their cats' lives. Thank you, Rebecca.

I have been the recipient of dosing advice and I've given plenty of it. In fact, I learned much of what I know from the dosing advice I received. I consider myself to be above-average with my knowledge of several insulins, but I am not arrogant enough to think I know it all, or that I'm finished learning. I try to make very clear that fact, but that doesn't mean a new or impressionable member might not think that I am saying I am the authority on the subject. I have always been reliant on the strong peer-review aspect of this site. We all get tired, we all read too fast at times and we all miss pertinent information at least once. It stings, but it's not about how we feel. It's about the cats, and if someone hurts my feelings because I was wrong, that's not important. What's important is that an owner is not led down the wrong path.

Can we say it again? It's about the cats.

PS: Michele, Lydia, Cyn, Linda, Jackie and Ronnie, terrific posts Your posts echo through the hearts of all the owners who have thriving cats, due to the excellence of this site and the members who spend hours of their own time selflessly helping others.

I had not been posting as much in the last two weeks due to my Dad's illness and his passing on Dec. 23. When I did try to post I realized the old board had crashed and was instructed to register on the new board. The last few days I was only posting Putty's numbers but did not really read much else. On the old board I posted in the Lantus ISG and on health. Yesterday I decided to take a look around the new board and noticed something was not right so I went to Community and started to read the threads on the "disposal" of the "dosing advisors."

Putty was diagnosed with FD August 21, 2008. I had an idea from his symptoms that he had FD so I lurked on the health site before he was officially dx. I was very impressed with the information I was reading and how so many people were so willing to spend their time helping others.
My vet prescribed Lantus and told me to start with 2 units twice a day. I had read enough to know that the dose was too high to start so I started a thread and received great advice. Based on more great advice I learned that I should give Putty low carb wet food and start to home-test.
Putty was very difficult to test and it took myself and DH to test him. I was advised to wrap Putty in a blanket to make it easier which we did. When I was alone with Putty and his bg was a little low I was advised to test him again. By that time my DH had gone to work and I was alone and scared to test him alone. With great advice I was walked through each step and one hour later after a lot of tears and sweat I tested him alone.

I was advised to start posting on the Lantus ISG. Once again I was amazed at the knowledge and support I was given. Because of the great advice I was given Putty went into remission in 24 days.
He did come out of remission 4 months later and we have been regular posters ever since. I could not have taken such good care of him or learned as much as I have without the expertise of many people on this board.

I have confidence that I can take care of Putty because of the great "advisors"that have held my hand when I needed it and gave me the push to figure things out on my own when they knew I could do it. After all Putty is my cat and I know him better than anyone.

Putty has been back on insulin for almost a year...... am I sure that I have learned enough to help others? Yes I am in most instances. Am I confident that I should or could help others with dosing advice? I believe I have learned quite a bit here to "pay it forward" as they say but I have always left the dosing to the experts. I consider them experts because they have been doing this a lot longer than I have.....they have read more, paid more attention to detail, read and reread the protocols and have given much more of their own time than I have ever given reading each and every word on every thread.

Did I ever for one minute think that the "dosing advisors" were in any way taking the place of my vet. Absolutely not. Did they ever imply that they were more knowledgeable than my vet even though in many instances they were. Absolutely not.
Time after time the "dosing advisors stated they were not vets nor could they or did they give medical help to any cat. They always responsibly stated that if there was a medical issue to seek advice of the vet or go to the local ER.

I still rely on the dosing advice that I seek here. After a year and a half of reading, learning and trying to pay attention to "advice" given in other's threads I have become confident that I am just getting comfortable dosing Putty but feel more comfortable with the input from the "dosing advisors."

As you can see I have used the words advice and advisor's many times in my post. The word advice or adviser as much as I can see from the definition below from "Dictionary. com" does not in any way imply that it is nothing more than just that......advice. In the end I have the choice to accept or decline that advice for what it is.

As I said in my opening statement my Dad had been very ill. He was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in July. I sought out many "medical" websites researching over and over for any and all information I could find to help my Dad and to be more knowledgeable about pancreatic cancer. I found many sites that were contradictory to the actual medical advice we were given by his Dr's. I found many forums for people with pancreatic cancer with all kinds of advice. In the end I had to decide what I wanted to believe given all the information that was out there.

I believe we can all do the same here. Take the advice given and make a choice on whether or not we want to take it.
I do understand the legal aspects of deeming people "experts" but deeming them "advisors" is exactly what the term implies.....giving advice.

I can only hope for the sake of us "oldies" and especially the "newbies" you rethink your position to reinstate the "team" or whatever you want to call them so we know that our cats are getting the best possible care when it comes to dosing. I worry that the consequences without those "advisors" will be more harmful.

ad⋅vis⋅or  /ædˈvaɪzər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ad-vahy-zer] Show IPA
–noun 1. one who gives advice.

Thank you for reading this very long post.

Miriam and Putty

(((Miriam)))

I am so sorry for your loss.

Thank you Janet. It is much appreciated.

I hope my intention on my previous post was to get my point across about my feelings on the "dosing advisors" and not hijack this thread to be about the loss of my Dad.

Jackie, Miriam, Linda and the other LL'ers have already said what I would have.

I hope we can find a solution to this issue.

Oreo was DX'd in March of '08. We started on Glipizide as I had no knowledge of FD. I did switch all of our cats to a wet food diet as I had found Dr Lisa's site. Was terrified of giving her a shot and it sounded like a win/win solution. The vet told us it could stimulate her pancreas and she could go into remission. Then I found FDMB. Read about how Glip tends to burn out the pancreas. Oh, what did I do??? I joined in July of '08 and started reading the information on Lantus. I was already home testing so that I had down pat. Then on 8/30 she looked so horrible we took her in sure she was going to need to be PTS. The next morning our vet called and said it was still the FD and we should try injectable insulin. I had been reading FDMB and was confident I could do it. He offered PZI or Lantus. He had mentioned a human insulin that was working well in cats. I had read here it was Lantus. I asked him for Lantus and began posting. He suggested 2U and that's where we started. Thanks to the angels in LL we started decreasing, got 1/2U syringes and monitored her regularly. She is still on a sk 1.25U right now, but she is happy, looks like a non-FD kitty and is getting back to her old self. The last vet who saw her as mine was on vacation remarked that she doesn't look like a diabetic kitty - thank you FDMB and LL!

It's all about the kitties. The one phrase I always keep in mind from Janet's "Suggestions for adivse givers" is "Do no harm". I believe the LL team always keeps that in mind.

Thank you Rebecca for creating this place. It has saved and helped so many!

It looks like further clarification of what I posted is in order; however, please understand I do not speak for Rebecca and am posting only to clarify my previous post.

I said before that any cooperative or group was bad and would be heading down the same road that "dosing advisor" had just travelled, and it would. With that said, there is nothing I have posted here or in the previous thread that should be interpreted to mean that the same people who have assisted you before cannot continue to assist you. The only differences will be : (1) There are no more "dosing advisors" as that term is currently used; and, (2) There will be no more off the board discussions relating to a specific situation. I simply cannot imagine that people who have given so generously of their time and knowledge to all of us (including me) would withhold their support because of these two changes. The same person(s) who have helped people in the ISG's will still be there and they will still continue to respond to member's posts.

I hope this clarifies the situation for everyone and no one will lose sleep thinking that their support system has suddenly gone away.

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Quoted post above:
"It looks like further clarification of what I posted is in order; however, please understand I do not speak for Rebecca and am posting only to clarify my previous post.

I said before that any cooperative or group was bad and would be heading down the same road that "dosing advisor" had just travelled, and it would. With that said, there is nothing I have posted here or in the previous thread that should be interpreted to mean that the same people who have assisted you before cannot continue to assist you. The only differences will be : (1) There are no more "dosing advisors" as that term is currently used; and, (2) There will be no more off the board discussions relating to a specific situation. I simply cannot imagine that people who have given so generously of their time and knowledge to all of us (including me) would withhold their support because of these two changes. The same person(s) who have helped people in the ISG's will still be there and they will still continue to respond to member's posts."

SERIOUSLY??? What is it with your hunt against advisors and knowledgeable people discussing among themselves the best advice to give on LL???? I've been fairly quiet through this debate and I understand the perceived legal issues but this is freakin' ridiculous. Things have been working splendidly for a very long time and countless people have been helped. I DON'T RECALL AN ISSUE WHERE THIS HAS NOT WORKED.

As a long time member of this board I am just sad. Report me, ban me, I don't care. I just don't understand why this has suddneny become an issue.

Awesome post Miriam.

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Patticass & Tyler (GA) said:

Quoted post above:
"It looks like further clarification of what I posted is in order; however, please understand I do not speak for Rebecca and am posting only to clarify my previous post.

I said before that any cooperative or group was bad and would be heading down the same road that "dosing advisor" had just travelled, and it would. With that said, there is nothing I have posted here or in the previous thread that should be interpreted to mean that the same people who have assisted you before cannot continue to assist you. The only differences will be : (1) There are no more "dosing advisors" as that term is currently used; and, (2) There will be no more off the board discussions relating to a specific situation. I simply cannot imagine that people who have given so generously of their time and knowledge to all of us (including me) would withhold their support because of these two changes. The same person(s) who have helped people in the ISG's will still be there and they will still continue to respond to member's posts."

SERIOUSLY??? What is it with your hunt against advisors and knowledgeable people discussing among themselves the best advice to give on LL???? I've been fairly quiet through this debate and I understand the perceived legal issues but this is freakin' ridiculous. Things have been working splendidly for a very long time and countless people have been helped. I DON'T RECALL AN ISSUE WHERE THIS HAS NOT WORKED.

As a long time member of this board I am just sad. Report me, ban me, I don't care. I just don't understand why this has suddneny become an issue.

Click to expand...

Patty, Jana is not hunting anyone. She was giving her take on the legal repercussions of classing specific people as advisors, the same legal worries that caused Rebecca to post to begin with. I believe she's a lawyer so she should know. We all believe discussing off board is probably not a great idea. There is no reason the people with the most experience can't discuss within a thread anyway. The idea of the board, and how it has been operating as an open peer reviewed advisory. No one would want to report or ban you. I understand your frustration. I share it.

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Patticass & Tyler (GA) said:

I just don't understand why this has suddneny become an issue.

Click to expand...

As far as I know, it's an issue because Rebecca wasn't aware that term was being used on the board. Rebecca's just worried about legal repercussions if someone takes that phrase the wrong way.. it can come back on her, and the board. I'd hate to see something as simple as a phrase shut the board down due to legal problems. :cry: I don't see her telling the same people can't give dosing advice to anyone.. it's just the phrase being used concerns her. Why not call them 'Team L' or something? Or even in one of the stickies, just point out the members with the most dosing experience?

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

"We all believe discussing off board is probably not a great idea. There is no reason the people with the most experience can't discuss within a thread anyway.[/quote]

This is where I disagree. The world is not black and white and though I think in general it is a good idea to post advice publicly, I have NO problem advice-givers discussing a certain instance and making sure they are giving what they think is the safest advice before they post. This is not about sending the advice privately, it's about collbarating between experts (and yes they are experts in that area) before publicly advising.

Let's face it, LL is different than the other ISGs where there are a few dedicated people that spend HOURS a day helping a large number of people understand and apply a protocol to the use on Lantus. I'm not saying there are dedicated members on the other ISGs but anyone who visits LL knows it is different.

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Patticass & Tyler (GA) said:

"We all believe discussing off board is probably not a great idea. There is no reason the people with the most experience can't discuss within a thread anyway.

Click to expand...

This is where I disagree. The world is not black and white and though I think in general it is a good idea to post advice publicly, I have NO problem advice-givers discussing a certain instance and making sure they are giving what they think is the safest advice before they post. This is not about sending the advice privately, it's about collbarating between experts (and yes they are experts in that area) before publicly advising.

Let's face it, LL is different than the other ISGs where there are a few dedicated people that spend HOURS a day helping a large number of people understand and apply a protocol to the use on Lantus. I'm not saying there are dedicated members on the other ISGs but anyone who visits LL knows it is different.

Click to expand...

Oh, well, I guess I have to disagree and that is something Rebecca was worried about. I don't see anything they could say that could not be said on a thread. Why would it be any different?

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Patticass & Tyler (GA) said:

Quoted post above:
"It looks like further clarification of what I posted is in order; however, please understand I do not speak for Rebecca and am posting only to clarify my previous post.

I said before that any cooperative or group was bad and would be heading down the same road that "dosing advisor" had just travelled, and it would. With that said, there is nothing I have posted here or in the previous thread that should be interpreted to mean that the same people who have assisted you before cannot continue to assist you. The only differences will be : (1) There are no more "dosing advisors" as that term is currently used; and, (2) There will be no more off the board discussions relating to a specific situation. I simply cannot imagine that people who have given so generously of their time and knowledge to all of us (including me) would withhold their support because of these two changes. The same person(s) who have helped people in the ISG's will still be there and they will still continue to respond to member's posts."

SERIOUSLY??? What is it with your hunt against advisors and knowledgeable people discussing among themselves the best advice to give on LL???? I've been fairly quiet through this debate and I understand the perceived legal issues but this is freakin' ridiculous. Things have been working splendidly for a very long time and countless people have been helped. I DON'T RECALL AN ISSUE WHERE THIS HAS NOT WORKED.

As a long time member of this board I am just sad. Report me, ban me, I don't care. I just don't understand why this has suddneny become an issue.

Click to expand...

My understanding is that Rebecca did not know about "dosing advisors" until yesterday when a poster mentioned them in the previous thread. As soon as she saw it, she made her original post setting forth the reasons why that practice had to stop. You can see her original post here (although she modified it later last night to include a posting of mine): http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=926. As for myself, and contrary to your accusation, I'm not on a "hunt." Rebecca's analysis of the pitfalls of having individuals holding themselves out as "dosing advisors" is correct. Moreover, that analysis applies to any cooperative or designated group. I understand you may not like that and, clearly, do not agree with it - but that is the way it works in legal land. As for off-the-board discussions, that has not been a practice that was favored for as long as I know. In fact, if you look at this post (which was also on the old board) you will see that off-the-board discussions is not encouraged: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=949.

One last point...you mention "perceived legal issues," and I can assure you there is nothing about Rebecca's concerns that should be viewed as anything less than very real and very serious. All it would take is one person (not two, not three, not dozens), to abruptly end this community, the FDMB, and the LLC, and place Rebecca (and perhaps others) in a position of financial ruin for most if not all the rest of her life. So, I suppose the question is this: If you were Rebecca and just yesterday discovered a situation that placed this board, the FDMB, the LLC, and your personal financial well-being at risk, would you choose to continue the situation unchanged? Or, would you choose to make what are in reality minor changes to the situation that would diminish the risk? I suspect most people, if they stepped back from the emotion of these circumstances, would choose the latter over the former.

We all believe discussing off board is probably not a great idea. There is no reason the people with the most experience can't discuss within a thread anyway. The idea of the board, and how it has been operating as an open peer reviewed advisory.

Click to expand...

Exactly, not just the ability to review is important but the sharing of ideas/experiences that were considered to get to that recommendation should be open and available to EVERYONE, there will be NO experienced users or advisors in the future if they are not given the informationwhich to learn from. I think the recipient of the "teams" advice should also have an explanation of why that is being recommended. People need to LEARN to manage this disease not be led by the nose dependant on others for every move. We all need a little hand-holding through this process of dealing with FD, but hand-holding is one thing, we should not encourage people to blindly follow or become overly dependant on a few individuals. We need to teach people not do it for them, there may come a time when no one is around and they need to think for themselves.

In medical school we had a saying....watch one, do one, teach one...anyone ever heard this?

I take 99% of the credit for getting my cat OTJ, I read, I learned, I put it to practice. I had people holding my hand when I needed it. I stated my intentions and didn't ask for approval, but rather waited to see if anyone could give me a good reason to think I was being an idiot. I asked questions and just enjoyed a place to vent or kick and scream when I was at my wits end (I had food issues angry(2)_cat ).

Everyone has something to offer, and those that give so much of thier time are appreciated , it's not nessasary to bestow a honorary title upon them to show our gratefulness.

I'm glad this board is here I enjoy the interaction here and consider many people here friends (maybe not after I hit Submit :roll: )
Thanks Rebecca for creating such a lively place to hang out! bcatrun_gif

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Karen & Pearl said:

I don't see anything they could say that could not be said on a thread. Why would it be any different?

Click to expand...

I don't think it's about whether what they're saying could or couldn't be said on the thread, it's about taking the information and data as it stands and analysing it, weighing up the pros and cons of different possibilities and coming up with the best advice, opinion, whatever the hell you want to call it, then giving that to the person, explaining how the conclusion has been reached so they can learn. The person seeking the advice isn't losing out in this process, in fact it can be a hell of a lot more efficient and less confusing than having all that back and forth on the board.

It's been going on for years, long before LL. It works.

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Yolanda and Goo (GA) said:

Karen & Pearl said:

I don't see anything they could say that could not be said on a thread. Why would it be any different?

Click to expand...

I don't think it's about whether what they're saying could or couldn't be said on the thread, it's about taking the information and data as it stands and analysing it, weighing up the pros and cons of different possibilities and coming up with the best advice, opinion, whatever the hell you want to call it, then giving that to the person, explaining how the conclusion has been reached so they can learn. The person seeking the advice isn't losing out in this process, in fact it can be a hell of a lot more efficient and less confusing than having all that back and forth on the board.

It's been going on for years, long before LL. It works.

Click to expand...

Yes, MORE EFFICIENT especially when there is the sheer volume of posts going on in a group like LL. And if legally it is better to call the experts (that's what they are) in LL something like Team L or Lantus opinion givers, then so be it. But I'm not at all seeing how it is possible to tell them they can't brainstorm in private in order to give the safest advice publicly.

Clearly I have had WAY too much caffeine today.

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Jana + BK + Chester said:

As for off-the-board discussions, that has not been a practice that was favored for as long as I know. In fact, if you look at this post (which was also on the old board) you will see that off-the-board discussions is not encouraged

Click to expand...

No, off board advice is not encouraged, in fact it's highly frowned upon as it should be. Off board discussion of what advice to give is an entirely different thing. The advice itself still ends up on the board.

very good point Yolanda!

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Yolanda and Goo (GA) said:

Jana + BK + Chester said:

As for off-the-board discussions, that has not been a practice that was favored for as long as I know. In fact, if you look at this post (which was also on the old board) you will see that off-the-board discussions is not encouraged

Click to expand...

No, off board advice is not encouraged, in fact it's highly frowned upon as it should be. Off board discussion of what advice to give is an entirely different thing. The advice itself still ends up on the board.

Click to expand...

And is, apparently, legally dangerous. That should be justification enough if anyone wants the board to continue unfettered.

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Yolanda and Goo (GA) said:

Jana + BK + Chester said:

As for off-the-board discussions, that has not been a practice that was favored for as long as I know. In fact, if you look at this post (which was also on the old board) you will see that off-the-board discussions is not encouraged

Click to expand...

No, off board advice is not encouraged, in fact it's highly frowned upon as it should be. Off board discussion of what advice to give is an entirely different thing. The advice itself still ends up on the board.

Click to expand...

Thank you Yolanda, for clarifying. AFAIK, there is no "off board advice" being given in LL, at least not by our "team." The off board discussion is done so as to not overwhelm with sheer number of posts.

Just adding my 2 cents...I had missed this whole discussion. Had no idea this was going on. Just trying to adjust to the new board logistically, and not reading every post, etc.

Now that I see this, I echo Miriam's' and Cyn and Cosmo's and so many other's input about this. I also lurked for a long time, and then when I started posted and getting advice...or input....or suggestions based upon people with far more experience...whatever you want to call it, it was scary to me, because I had such a big learning curve ahead of me. But no one else gave me the structure, the suggestions, that really made the difference between having an out of control diabetic cat and one with a prayer of becoming regulated.

I was shooting blind. I did not test. My vets told me to just keep upping the dose. Thomas was a very sick boy and all over the place until I came to this board and was introduced to home testing. Who had ever heard of that? My vet certainly never mentioned it, and when I mentioned it to them, one of the vet techs told me it 'would be hard to impossible'...no supportive heartfelt concern like I got here.

Because of this board, I was given a FREE testing kit to get me started and tons of moral support, and we were on our way. I also did keep in touch with my vet, who had heard great things about this board and wholeheartedly approved of me communicating with folks here...it was the balance between the two, but I have to say, without the input from this board, the week that Thomas went OTJ might not every have happened. My vets wouldn't have suggested the protocol that ended up getting Thomas OTJ...where he remains today, despite, his many and increasingly serious health concerns.

Most cats with his issues would never be where he is today, or even given the faintest hope of surviving all the various things he has been through, on TOP of diabetes...given the way we started out, he would have most likely not survived his diabetes without this board. In part due to his other complications making him a more fragile and complex kitty to treat. The folks who were helping us here took all of these things into account when making suggestions to us...not viewing them as impossible complications, but minor hurdles and issues to consider as part of the whole cat. Now, instead, he has had almost 2 extra years, and it won't be the diabetes that will take him from me. I would have lost him 2 years ago.

We owe his well being to the caring input from so many people on this board. I hope that will not change for others seeking the kind of help and support that we got. This place is a community of caring people, and caring for the cats is the prime focus, and I hope can remain so.

This is heartbreaking to me. I hope that some resolution can be reached so that the board can remain the magnificently informative and supportive and caring place it has always been to kitties and beans like Thomas and me.

Judith and Thomas

Yolanda and Patti... I agree that collaboration to come to a positive next step in treatment is a good idea. And anyone can do that. For someone to say, "I've talked to Patti, Yolanda and Janet about this and we think this is the right way to go and here's why and how we came to this conclusion... " is, in my opinion, a fair and open way to go.

As as much as the people that rely on and have relied on Team J and other in LL are freaking out that they might lose that support - even though that was not at all what was said - many more of us understand the ramifications of what one or two grief stricken individuals could do to this entire board and all the other cats and caregivers that depend on it.

Not all cats that get advise in LL live. And though that is not the fault of the people with experience that have given advice... the grief stricken caregiver doesn't know that or care. Eg. One sad wife with an angry husband who never wanted her to talk to those internet whackos anyway... and, well, he figures there's someone to blame and that the fight might make his wife feel better... and you have a recipe for disaster. Even if they don't get Rebecca's home, they may have this place shut down - even temporarily.

The labels were not made by the experts in that area anyway... so I'm sure they don't care what they are called or that they are called anything. Most people do not like labels anyway. So there should not be a problem with switching gears in our minds and being able to say, "Hey, newbie, Listen to Jojo.. she's got a ton of experience and has been helping people with sick cats on this board for years." And there is no reason why someone can't say the same thing about many other people - in LL and out.

Patti and Yolanda, you both have helped many people... you have helped me understand so much about many things feline and feline health related. And I don't have a problem telling people that. But I don't need to label you, do I?


So why is it heartbreaking and devastating for so many people that Rebecca wants to protect this place so that she is not put at risk and so that the people who have experience have a place to share that experience? Other than a few words changing that have been used to refer to people, nothing else is changing... Nothing is at risk.. not the help everyone has been receiving and not Rebecca personally.

I can appreciate the issue of convenience and not wanting to overwhelm people with posts. However, as it stands now, Rebecca has spoken. It is my sincere hope that none of the people who so generously given of their time, knowledge, and support, will cease those activities because there are no more "dosing advisors" or other identified cooperatives/groups, or off-the-board discussions. To me, at this point, there is no reason for people to continue worrying about their ability to obtain the same information they previously received or fret that their support system has disappeared.

Miriam,
It's like you were typing what I was thinking, except you said it better than I ever could!!!!!!

Thank You for making perfect sense of all this!
Jan

I agree that it is incumbent upon all of us to try to protect the people who go WAY out of their way each day to help us.

I'm kind of new here, and not privvy to some of the things that may have happened in the past. But, I imagine one of the concerns may be that if there are not named "experts" how do people, newbies in particular but anyone, know who they should listen to? Could there be some way that people could rate one another's advice? Then if I see a reply to my HELP! from Bernie who has 1200 ratings and an average of 4 stars, I can differentiate that from the advice from Bunnie who has no ratings at all and Benny who has 1200 ratings and an average of one star. I know this invites malicious bad ratings, but they tend to get lost in the averages when the numbers are big enough. This kind of thing does work out on other sites.

Then if I see a reply to my HELP! from Bernie who has 1200 ratings and an average of 4 stars, I can differentiate that from the advice from Bunnie who has no ratings at all and Benny who has 1200 ratings and an average of one star. I know this invites malicious bad ratings, but they tend to get lost in the averages when the numbers are big enough. This kind of thing does work out on other sites.

Click to expand...

I don't see that as being any sort of resonable option. You are again excluding people and recognizing only some individuals as being "qualified" this would also breed competition and create popularity contests. Seems very high school to me. :YMSIGH:

The people seeking information have to weigh that information - like all of us had to do. And of course weight will be given to information that is repeatedly given as well as when an experienced person posts and someone states, "Hey, this was good information, so and so knows what she's talking about." That's what we say when Jess jumps in and gives some advise. Jess is busy and doesn't have a lot of time to post so when she does a newbie may not know how to weigh that information... so usually there is someone around to say that it's good advice.


This is not a clinic. And it can't be perceived as one. It is a discussion forum from which people who care for diabetic cats can receive helpful information, direction about treatment and support.

Um, Vic, my posts had nothing to do with, nor did they mention, the terms used to describe those people doing the "opinion giving". They were about the fact that off board discussions of the "opinion" to give (is that better Karen??) does happen, has always happened and will continue to happen, and there is nothing wrong with it. Fine, don't call them dosing advisers. Being quite a bright person, I don't need the possible legal ramifications of that spelt out to me. What I can't see as being a problem is a group of people discussing the best approach to suggest (not advise ) being legally problematic to the board.

And sorry to those that don't like that these behind the scenes discussions happen, but truth is it's probably helped your cat at one time or another. Think about that, because THAT is what it's all about, the cats. Would you rather not have had our help?

The ISGs, started in 2005 by Venita, Alice and others, were created to help people learn. They were not initiated to serve as a clinic on what to do, but on how to do it. The founders of the concept understood that each insulin is different and each insulin affects different cats in different ways. You newbies would be amazed at how controversial the whole concept of ISGs was at the time.

Here's a post from an early Think Tank discussion on whether or not the groups were working as intended. As always, Anne and French Fry make the important points:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?15,477629,478106#msg-478106

One last point. Each of the insulin groups has always had 1-2, sometimes more, dedicated volunteers available to hold the hands of newbies. Those volunteers come and go depending on their real lives and how burned out they got. What I see as different today is that some people are staying in the study groups for years. Those long-termers shouldn't really continue to need daily advice, but it's gotten comfortable for them to be part of the community (see Anne's post). But they also contribute to the volume of traffic on the Lantus board, and thus the need to have designated "advisors." The title of "advisor" was created, as far as I understand it, to help manage traffic. Removing that title does nothing to solve the traffic volume problem.

In my humble opinion.....

IMHO.....this is a phrase that I used to see a lot on this board and could be well served to be brought back into action here.

As to the legalities, I am not venturing in, however I do believe that the people who have given of themselves endlessly in LL and in other forums do so often with the support of conversations behind the scenes.
I know I have. Being a lone voice often in VCN-ISG , I try to make sure that at least a few people have been part of a discussion ( a check and balance if you willl ) that I would then share outloud in threads to the person I was assisting.

A good example of this is Deb and Spot and Kate and Lucky.

IMHO, we need to get back to the idea that it is about the cats. First and always.

This isn't about popularity. It's about knowing when you are getting an opinion from experience and when you are getting one from a person who just likes to have opinions. And we can not ask the people who truly are experts to call themselves that because they take on too much liability by doing so. The system actually can work very well. There is no need to compete with anyone but yourself. I can rate 10 people 4 stars if all 10 offer useful advice and no one knows who rated them how.

I'm not pushing this as an only answer. Just something to think about. But I wasn't even "very high school" when I was in high school 40-odd years ago!

Terri and Lucy said:

The ISGs, started in 2005 by Venita, Alice and others, were created to help people learn. They were not initiated to serve as a clinic on what to do, but on how to do it.

Click to expand...

That's so interesting, because everyone needs to learn how to make these decisions for themselves. I've learned quite a bit already and I'm still wet behind my kitty ears. I also do sometimes get mixed up about who told me what. It's difficult at first to get that feeling that your feet are on the ground.

Terri and Lucy said:

What I see as different today is that some people are staying in the study groups for years.

Click to expand...

I've been worrying about this! Will people nudge me to move along, get my own opinion, stop asking when the time is right? LOL! That's me--worried about when I should move on before I am all the way into the door!

(2) There will be no more off the board discussions relating to a specific situation.

Click to expand...

This is an unenforceable rule. There are times when having a discussion on the thread is helpful, provided they are actually having a discussion and not just having individual monologues. There are other times when it leads to confusion.

The operative principle is "best interest of the cat". Sometimes that means hand-holding or even what we call "spoon-feeding", if the cat is in imminent danger. In the long run, it also includes having a human who is empowered and educated to make good decisions. It depends on the immediate situation.

Designating experts, or ranking posts, is a tricky business. We've had cults of personality in the past, or even just situations in which people wrote wrong things with great confidence. People tend to assume that confidence = competence, and newbies in particular are likely to fall into that trap. So the self-appointed expert might get very high rankings; others, who are more knowledgeable but more humble, might get few kudos; and still others, who are knowledgeable but don't always have the best bedside manner, might get rapped.

If there's a system that can give someone like Robin the highest rankings, and give the inappropriately-self-confident type low rankings, without being gamed by people who have just learned to despise each other after years of friction, it's worth exploring. (Among other things: people should be able to change their ratings on people and posts; the rating should be based on helpfulness of the content, rather than the tone of the person; negative ratings should probably be permitted; and lifetime limits should be imposed.)

Re: Dosing adviser clarification -- RANT

Investigation of the Challenger space shuttle disaster shown that it was likely caused by experts meeting away from the persons (launch director) getting advice. Specifically:

A group of experts were meeting to determine it the Challenger launch should proceed based on the low ambient temperature. One person provided facts of a probable o-ring burn through due to the low temperature (lowest temperature so far for a launch). In a group situation, a strong leader can smother valid dissent. That person's dissent was never passed on to the decision maker (for our cats the caretaker, the FDMB is NOT the decision maker). Many organizations made changes based on the finding of the Challenger investigation (e.g., recommendations will include dissenter's opinions). Group decision making has many pitfalls with one of them is that no one is responsible for the decision. The group decision making process has been well studied and organizations have to learn how avoid the pitfalls.

Patticass & Tyler (GA) said:

Quoted post above:
"It looks like further clarification of what I posted is in order; however, please understand I do not speak for Rebecca and am posting only to clarify my previous post.

I said before that any cooperative or group was bad and would be heading down the same road that "dosing advisor" had just travelled, and it would. With that said, there is nothing I have posted here or in the previous thread that should be interpreted to mean that the same people who have assisted you before cannot continue to assist you. The only differences will be : (1) There are no more "dosing advisors" as that term is currently used; and, (2) There will be no more off the board discussions relating to a specific situation. I simply cannot imagine that people who have given so generously of their time and knowledge to all of us (including me) would withhold their support because of these two changes. The same person(s) who have helped people in the ISG's will still be there and they will still continue to respond to member's posts."

SERIOUSLY??? What is it with your hunt against advisors and knowledgeable people discussing among themselves the best advice to give on LL???? I've been fairly quiet through this debate and I understand the perceived legal issues but this is freakin' ridiculous. Things have been working splendidly for a very long time and countless people have been helped. I DON'T RECALL AN ISSUE WHERE THIS HAS NOT WORKED.

As a long time member of this board I am just sad. Report me, ban me, I don't care. I just don't understand why this has suddneny become an issue.

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