PZ MEETING--POSITIVE FEEDBACK ONLY.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Anonymous

Guest
OK, who wants to start? i hope this will remain a closed door session with only input that furthers our learning in a positive way about pro zinc which let's start calling it PZ as opposed to PZI for abbreviation sake.
Questions that come to mind
some peeps have said that smaller amounts of pz are needed when making the switch from pzi to pz. anyone switch over and see that to be the case?
anyone here hypo on pz? anyone heard of a hypo on pz? how long does it take to clear?
this would help in knowing if it has those lantus like qualities of some shed which seems to be in question.

ok folks, throw in Q and A whenever or however you feel like. no hurry, this discussion hopefully will last for days weeks even months.
 
Good questions Lori!

To follow on the small increments question, I have wondered myself if ProZinc is more sensitive than PZI Vet, or if some kitties are more sensitive than others (on either insulin, or both). I have noticed with Bix (PZI Vet) that sometimes it seems like a 0.1, or even a fat/skinny (0.05) can make a big difference, but then other times it seems like small increments are useless for him. With him, it appears to depend on certain BG/dose combinations.

From a protocol perspective, what seems tricky to me is balancing the small increments factor with getting the cat successfully out of high #s. It seems like some cats, generally I would guess those who are responsive to a dose in the lower ranges, maybe under 2u or so, will do fine with a small increments SLGSBNTS (start low go slow but not too slow :lol: ) approach. But I worry about those who need higher doses, and potentially delaying regulation with a small increments approach. I have liked the perspective with PZI Vet of moving in 0.5 increments until you are closing in on better #s, then move to 0.2, but I'm not sure that applies for ProZinc, or that it can be clearly stated on any insulin. I think those of us who've been here a bit, when looking at a newbie cats #s have a feel for "this one needs to be more aggressive, this one needs to let things settle a bit and go slowly/small changes" but it's hard to quantify it in a way to explain easily to newbies.

So could be that 0.5 is actually a bad idea on ProZ, but on the other hand, it could be that it is still a good idea for some cats. When you look at cats for instance who only start doing well on a dose of something like 4u, it's hard to imagine that moving in 0.2u increments would be the right way to go. But then how to determine which cats are in which category, etc.? I think Lantus has some guidelines based on either weight or current dosage (haven't peeked over there in a while), that might be worth borrowing & seeing if that is a good fit for ProZinc?

Another question I would throw in for friendly discussion :-D is the how long to hold a dose question. Some have suggested ProZinc needs a little more time than PZI Vet to "settle in".

One thought I have to keep the contention levels low :mrgreen: is that we could start sort of a working doc that has ranges. Less of a firm protocol and more of a "here's what we've seen so far". So it could have ranges for certain things, rather than hard and fast guidelines. So it could read something like: "Based on the experiences of those using ProZinc, doses can be changed with every shot, however, some cats seem to do well if a steady dose is held for a few days". Of course at some point that approach may become vague enough to be mostly useless, but it might be a starting point to get some things down on paper without getting lost in trying to find a tight consensus.
 
definety agree we are not ready for any hard and fast 'rules' and may never be. the tilly protocol style is not something i would want to see happen.
the holding a dose question is excellent. with pzi we only held a dose for the very first week of usage. we'd see results almost immediatly however they got better on their own. the first week was just to allow the cat to adjust to insulin. after that it was on to regulating your specific dose. i don't know the differences or if there are any...but if a cat has not responded to a dose anywhere near enough i vote for 2 cycles only. but again i say that from a pzi perspective. and that is based only for after one week to adjust to insulin.
i also believe in sliding scale as i don't see any other choice once you hae a kitty with roaming amps and pmps looking for a place to settle. in tom's case he is a skinny in the evening and a fatty in the morning. his #'s always indicate that.

AND I WILL UPDATE MY SS....SHAME ON ME!
 
Moved from the other topic - I think it addresses some of the questions here:

My impression has been that there may have been one or more folks that did OK with ProZinc but that the settling time for dose increases recommendations kept growing and growing *sigh*. Steve [of Steve & Jock] has a TT topic about the length of time required to regulate. viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18955 As for me, I definitely see his point and somewhat agree with it. I think Steve even posted once in here about it - it was a good wake-up call for me.

As for me, I've already voiced my support for small dose increases, but hopefully faster [in 3 cycles] and in a scaled [say .05u increases under 1u, .1u increases under 2u etc.] manner that makes sense for the current dose given. My preference for the small increases is not a fear of hypo but I think it takes longer for the bean to jump back in the saddle after an unexpected drop and make up the dosing ground lost after they will inevitably back off [or not give any insulin for that shot] on the dose when those low numbers hit. The small increments allow them to see the drop happening and allow them to take smaller corrective action than just no shooting. The no shooting thing too is something that I'm not sure is the right thing to do or advocate - maybe like a 1/3 dose or something instead of a no shoot should be done? Hope that makes sense. Also *maybe* ProZinc seems a little more increment sensitive than PZI Vet to me but as I said that is not something I want to commit to -- maybe it was just me. I'm still really hoping for input from folks that have used both BCP or PZI Vet and ProZinc.

Just because I did it one way with my kitty does not mean it is the best thing for all kitties.

Do I need to post my numbered points about ProZinc from the other topic into this one too or should I just leave it there?
 
O O O can we clarify 'regulation' as i think a few of us have differing idea's as to what that means.
for me regulation is just spending most of the day below the renal threshold of 250.
most of the day in the blue's or greens. even if the amps or pmps is still yellow.
 
Umm I just had another idea. For the sake of background it would be interesting to know what "protocol" if any Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica [BIV] advocates? They have a help line that vets can call when they are having issues or want help with the insulin. They will never tell a user directly. It would be interesting to know what they tell vets? It probably has nothing to do with home testing but still would be interesting to know how they suggest it is done as a point of comparison. Any creative ideas on this?
 
none. the name alone has me all confused! i don't know how we'll break the code and talk to these people as if we are vets. if they have a protocol it should be googleable.
gator where do you come up with these things???
and are you back in town yet?
 
As for the regulation question. My idea of it is to always keep them below renal [with perhaps occasional exceptions that are hopefully quickly addressed]. The petdiabetes talks a little about renal threshold being the point at which organ damage starts to happen:
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Blood ... _threshold
Unfortunately the "regulation" currently has no mention to PZI which I might change shortly. Perhaps UTI is another consequence of glucose getting dumped into the urine which should be avoided to by regulation.

I think there is a natural trade off between more testing and ability to keep them at lower numbers. I think it is for each owner to make the decisions they need to make about just how regulated their cat should be. But I would hope they could be regulated with ProZinc - if that is clearly not happening or not moving in that direction after 8 weeks, then looking into other insulin [or maybe strategy like TID] should be recommended [whether that be BCP or one of the L's].
 
well then tom is clearly not regulated. his average amps is 170 and his average pmps is closer to 260.
i guess we will have to leave for another isg.
hell to the no!
 
lori and tom said:
gator where do you come up with these things???
Click to expand...
Which things? The BIV idea? I was just watching the Vanilla Ice Project [I heart Vanilla Ice] and it popped into my head.
lori and tom said:
and are you back in town yet?
Click to expand...
No unfortunately. I'm hoping to leave this week to get back. I've been doing major physical & dirty labor cleaning up an old an neglected property the past two days and I'm whupped. I know I have at least one more day tomorrow at it and so that make departure mid-to late this week hopefully. I'm going to be so out of shape when I get back -- it's going to sux.
 
lori and tom said:
well then tom is clearly not regulated. his average amps is 170 and his average pmps is closer to 260.
Click to expand...
Renal threshold is different for each cat. One way to test this would be to buy the urine test strips and give it a go. The petdiabetes site says 270 as the renal threshold so.... I certainly wasn't perfect at it. But he would go up there above 270 occasionally when I was playing catch up with this does requirements at the time. That was usually fairly quickly dealt with.
 
BIV, vanilla ice??? i don't know any of these things. :?
i fear we will lose input with this highly unrecognized stuff. if you find things out that way just bring them to the table. please let's keep it as simple and straightforward as we can.
 
lori and tom said:
BIV, vanilla ice??? i don't know any of these things. :?
Click to expand...
BIV = Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica the makers of ProZinc. http://www.prozinc.us

Vanilla Ice = 90's hip hop/rap artist more recently turned heavy metal artist. Hit single called Ice Ice Baby:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8bSpLKAhKc
He has a home improvement show ["The Vanilla Ice Project"] now that I was watching when the BIV idea hit.
 
Now this is more like it.

Great idea Lori differenciating Prozinc from the other PZI's by referring to it as PZ, love it.

PZ hypo's seem to clear within the day for most but can last into the next day from what I've seen with newbies, there is one on health right now.

I am a fan of small dose increases, small increases can give big results with Prozinc. But after looking at it in the light of day I guess I would agree that the small dose increases are more for the fine tuning stages, not the finding the right dose stages. I would agree with small dose increases at doses under 2 units and try .5 unit increases over 2 or 3 units. With PZ I would never advocate a 1 unit increase, too dangerous until we learn more.

Holding doses. I am the cheese stands alone here. Because I work full time plus I didn't dare change doses until the weekends when I could test through it. So I held almost every dose 1 week (unless I freaked out and dropped it down too low), when things were a little crazy in my life I held a dose 2 weeks and would get a breakthrough by accident. That is why I believe we need to hold the doses longer.

I love the working document idea until we get more info and can add to it and perfect it.

Marcy & Klinger had some very good suggestions about receiving newbies, we need to post our no shoot bg of 200 for new people until they have enough data to support a lower no shoot number. Also the 12/12 schelule but also include info about our flexibility with shooting early or late.

Gator - Please repost you numbered points, they were excellent.

What is regulation?
 
Reposted:

Here are a few of my points about ProZinc [I think I'm one of the few who hangs around with PZI Vet and ProZinc experience]:
1) Small changes in dose can have seeming larger effects. I recommend 0.05u dosing increments below 1u.
2) Give ProZinc [or any insulin for that matter] about 6 weeks for the bean and kitty to get used to things.
3) I've observed fast/deep early nadirs at the start of ProZinc - especially when the dose is too low. Don't freak out - they tend to smooth out as time goes on and the doses are increased the duration extends and the nadir happens later.
4) My personal "protocol" is for fast [every 3 cycles] and small [5%] changes in dose. That's 5% increases of the higher integer dose. For instance 0.05u increases every 3 cycles up to 1u and .1u increments up to 2u etc. But my experience with doses above 1u is very limited. Once the cat is reliably sensitive to a dose range then pull the training wheels off and go variable with hopefully the smallest dosing range possible. For variable, ideally aim for changes [usually lowering of PSs] in PSs of 30-50 under 400, 20-30 under 300, 10-20 under 200 and 0 under 150. Small changes in PS over 2, 3 or more cycles will get the cat to be where they need to be - don't aim for the ideal PS. If the drops from PS to PS are faster than the above then back off on the dose the next cycle by an 'appropriate' amount.
5) After you have found a dose range that your kitty is sensitive too and you are in the thick of practicing variable dosing, and you find your kitty's insulin needs going up [say after a bout of inappetence] avoid making increases in dose larger than 20% of the next highest integer dose. 20% increase is a relative large increase so this would be a max increase not a recommended increase. So that's no larger than .2u increases per cycle under 1u. Between 1 and 2u, that's no larger than .4u per cycle. etc. Again it is better to try to catch up with the numbers over several cycles than over-shoot.
6) If you are changing from PZI Vet or BCP to ProZinc, IMHO do treat it as an insulin change and do the necessary testing. I didn't and got a surprise or two.

On the newbie topics, I have begun a PZI newbie steps/check-list kind of thing that might ultimately make a good place in the sticky? At this stage I've just written down some thoughts and I would be happy to share them as a starting point for discussion. But perhaps that is best dealt with in another topic? I would like input if we think we have the appetite to take something like that on too. I haven't looked at it in a while - it's super rough and just had some ideas slapped down. At least to have something up that would cover the top 3-10 things I'm always type for newbies. Perhaps Marcy might like to start/guide a topic about this? My steps/check list covered the no-shoot [which again I think should be a more shoot 1/3 the dose below 200 and really no shoot below 100 kind of thing].

EDIT: I would like some feedback on my no-shoot ideas. Let me know even if you think I'm stupid :lol: . The whole no shoot at 200 or even 150 thing has always really bothered me [because it is not something I would do]. Any critique of a two-pronged "no-shoot" like 1/3 of the dose previously given below 200 and 0 below 100 or 125? Is that unsafe, or does that make anyone uncomfortable?
 
Here you go Gator, Marcy & Klinger remembered these guys, PM these people and find out why they didn't stick around. I donated most of my Sunday to them when they were in need and they never came back. I have flirted with leaving many times because of things like this.

Sweetcherrypie was coming around until I pushed her to set up a ss and Michelle and Peeps offered to help her and we havn't seen her since.

There is another newbie recently who posted and havn't heard from them since.

Is it us? Or our lack of organization and support?



viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27637&p=281644&hilit=jacksdads#p281644
 
I looked at Jack's SS earlier and I would not consider that well regulated yet. They are better but not well regulated. Am I missing something? I'm seeing huge swings in the doses which IMHO is the issue there. You want me to IM Sweetcherrypie? Hmm, that user must be a Warrant/Poison fan - I should ask! lol:
http://www.4shared.com/file/215350297/6 ... y_pie.html
:roll: As a child of the 80's we had so many awesome musical inspirations. Sorry if you missed the 80's.
 
DAMN! I just wrote my entire thought only to have it poofed!!!
i'll just say marcy is still around. mars72, the erratic 3's kitty. she will be around more often now too i expect.
i'm too irritated to go back and rewrite my post so tomorow ok. i had some good stuff too ohmygod_smile
 
here are some familiar names that i believe all did well.
sugarsquishy
buffpuff
furballLover
mdmelvin1128
kays8cats
i just sent a pm to hope and aria.
i'll send one to these guys to to ask them to give input, experience, etc.
we need to encourage peeps doing well to stick around. it helps to make it a little more fun around here. we can be more light hearted and fun ya know. throw around some humour and silliness. seems to work wonders on lantus which is over the top in uber silliness. we are not a glum lot. hell to the no!
 
Hey all! Got Lori's PM and figured I'd drop in to say hi and add whatever info we were able to glean from our PZ use. We went from PZI Vet--> Vetsulin -->ProZinc. (edited because I'm a dork - We started with PZI)

What I noticed most about PZ was that a full unit dose was a pretty bad idea. 1 unit was too weak, but 2 bottomed Ari out like mad. We went to 1.5 and from there really had to balance in the .2 unit changes for the first few months before she settled in. That being said, when she did even out, she was rock solid. Right at the 3 months mark we started seeing the hokey #'s again and then had to drastically reduce the dose until she was on her "as needed" basis.

The stats that they give with PZ and it's nadir relating to the amount of time the cat has been on it were really helpful for us. Gator - did you have those charts or a link to them? They showed how the nadir moved from being early during the first month and the subsequent spike post nadir higher, to the 2nd month being a later nadir and a softer spike.

All in all - I'm in the YAY for PZ camp!

ETA - And for protocol info - both Michelle (w/ Prudence) and I ended up going to TID with PZ with great results in finding the right dose. It was a faster way for us to zoom in on the proper 24h dose (split into 3) then wean back down to BID. We were able to make more subtle changes to the dose over a shorter period of time without having to let our girls spike too high if the dose was too low.

One last edit - It's not for all cats, but during our testing, we did find that if we took the +1 reading and it was already starting to lower that the dose was too high. I know not all cats react like that, but for us and a few others during the time we were testing constantly, that held true.
 
Please don't forget... Dosing on PZ is based on the PS #'s, and not nadir. Lantus, on the other hand, is based on nadir, and not PS. There's also the duration factor to be considered. I think that PZ (or ProZinc) has a 10 hour duration, whereas Lantus is 12 hours, plus a bit of an overlap. I'm still trying to figure it out. LOL

When I had Blackie on PZ, she hypoed because of the simple fact of wrong food, and too high of a dose. She was given Hill's Prescription W/D wet, and was also given 8u BID of ProZinc. Bad combo. I was able to get her out of it, thank goodness, and that night, dropped her unit to 1u BID, and switched her food immediately to Fancy Feast from the dry stuff that the vet suggested. Before the hypo, and before I started to test her and before the SS was even created, the vet would up her dose each weekend by 1 unit. The last time she had a vet check, they upped her units by 2 from 6 to 8. Hence the hypo. 2 units on a weekend is way too much insulin for any cat IMO. Blackie was fine that Saturday night, all day Sunday, all day Monday, fine Tuesday morning, and then bam!!! Tuesday afternoon is when she went hypo. Good thing I wasn't look for work then. I would've come home to a dead cat. I even called the vet up the next morning and told them about it. The vet told me that she would've knocked the units down to 4, but that's not what I read, and decided on.

Regardless, she's now doing fine, and as of last night, even better. :) She earned a decrease by 0.25u last night. :) Getting closer to one day OTJ. :) One day. :)
 
angela are you saying she was on that new dose for 2.5 days before hypoing on it?
were you testing a lot of mid cycles then?
if it took that long and you were testing mid cycles without seeing it...that would indicate something i find strange :lol: time to settle with a dose. i always said that does'nt happen.
 
Rob & Harley said:
I donated most of my Sunday to them when they were in need and they never came back. I have flirted with leaving many times because of things like this.
Click to expand...

I definitely wouldn't leave over stuff like that!!!! IMO you (anyone) have to figure you are offering what help you can, and you have absolutely no idea if that will be used, accepted, appreciated, whatever, and you have to just let that whole side of it go. You do what you can to help, and if people stick around, super, if not, at least you helped where you could. Hopefully for a lot who don't come back, it's because things are going well. I think when people are in crisis they are more likely to post - if they are doing ok and don't feel like they need help, other things in life overshadow coming to the board. Which is fine. Hopefully everyone (or at least a large %) that any of us has helped has drifted off because things were going well enough they didn't need us. Flew the nest & all that. :mrgreen:
 
Angela & Blackie & 8 Others said:
Dosing on PZ is based on the PS #'s, and not nadir.
Click to expand...

Just want to clarify, dosing for PZ, as I understand it, is based on a PS/nadir combination. With the PZI family, you don't look at either # in isolation.

Glad Blackie got a decrease, yay, it is nice to see her doing so well!
 
lori and tom said:
angela are you saying she was on that new dose for 2.5 days before hypoing on it?
were you testing a lot of mid cycles then?
if it took that long and you were testing mid cycles without seeing it...that would indicate something i find strange :lol: time to settle with a dose. i always said that does'nt happen.
Click to expand...

If I recall, the hypo came with a food switch.
 
yes agree on the combo of ps and nadir. true in lantus nadir makes a ridiculously low ps still a shootable number nailbite_smile and we don't do that. but if a shot brings a cat down to very low numbers...50 or 40, it is prudent to shave the dose down.
it's just an entirely different way of useing the drug.
i scream at some of the amps you guys in lantus shoot...eeeeeks. BOS!
 
miscellaneous follow-up:

Regulation: I always have liked what's in the FAQs from the old board: http://www.felinediabetes.com/fdmb-faq.htm#regulation

No-shoots: I agree we should have something about this in the sticky if we don't already, I think it's one of the bigger "newbie danger zones". How many times has one of us been up late with a newbie who shot a full dose on a 100 PS. Rarely an easy night.

Although I think PSs lower than 150 may be fine for those with experience and a cat who needs it, I really shy away from even mentioning it in a sticky (i.e. anything under 150 with any advice to it). At most I'd say "Under 150 is for the experienced only." Until you have quite a bit of data to support your cat responding well to/needing shots on lower PSs, I feel like the PZI (family) drop from PS to nadir needs room to happen, and below 150 doesn't leave enough room for safety unless you know what you are doing IMO.

For reference, here's the Lantus/Lev sticky on getting data ready to shoot lower #s. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=147 Might be a useful starting point to maybe adapt to PZ needs?

I agree a skipped shot is basically the worst choice, unless you have a PS of 80 or something and no apparent zoom after a couple hours and it's bedtime or whatever. Some have suggested they do better on PZ with a steady 12/12, i.e. lower the dose rather than wait for a higher PS and then shoot. On PZI Vet at least, I'm a fan of not shooting below 150, and if it's 150 to 200 but you're not used to it, then shoot a slightly lowered dose. I think I usually tell people to wait and retest, but that's partly auto-pilot. Now that I think about it, with Bix I think I always shot if he was 150 or above, just lowered the dose (usually too much, but whatevs).
 
we can always reccomend shooting a token dose at 150 so as not to miss the shot altogher.
 
lori and tom said:
yes agree on the combo of ps and nadir. true in lantus nadir makes a ridiculously low ps still a shootable number nailbite_smile and we don't do that. but if a shot brings a cat down to very low numbers...50 or 40, it is prudent to shave the dose down.
it's just an entirely different way of useing the drug.
i scream at some of the amps you guys in lantus shoot...eeeeeks. BOS!
Click to expand...

Two different kinds of insulin action going on. Lantus is designed to "shoot the overlap."


Lori, I think what you guys are doing here is great!

I would also throw out the idea to maybe appeal to the larger FDMB group to read the "protocol" the PZI ISG develops and become familiar with it. Maybe not experts like you guys, but generalists so we can "back you up," since there are so few PZI'ers.
 
Been lurking following your discussion with interest. If you decide Blue's idea has merit, I would be willing to be a backup player. We used PZI with Oliver 4 years ago, got him into remission in 6 months. I loved the flexibility of PZI.

I do answer newbie questions on the Health board, and if there are no experts from PZI, I try to give helpful info to newbies who are using ProZinc. I would not post on this forum without your okay. But I am around quite a bit - retired and working on the computer during the day. If you have some guidelines and need help, let me know.
 
lori and tom said:
angela are you saying she was on that new dose for 2.5 days before hypoing on it?
were you testing a lot of mid cycles then?
if it took that long and you were testing mid cycles without seeing it...that would indicate something i find strange :lol: time to settle with a dose. i always said that does'nt happen.
Click to expand...

No, she was on that 8u dose for a week before that hypo. They gave me an ultimatum... Either we increase the dose again, or we keep her on that 8u and give her the wet Hill's Prescription W/D food. Before that, she was on the dry stuff. I only started hometesting after coming across the mb that Sunday, meeting someone close by me, and having her come over and show me how to home test that Monday. I started hometesting her June 22nd. Before that, the vet didn't want me to hometest her at all. They'd rather do it. It was costing a carp load of money, and it was stressing us all out at the same time. She doesn't do vets well.

Prior to her SS, she was getting a unit increase pretty much each weekend.
 
Joanna & Bix said:
Angela & Blackie & 8 Others said:
Dosing on PZ is based on the PS #'s, and not nadir.
Click to expand...

Just want to clarify, dosing for PZ, as I understand it, is based on a PS/nadir combination. With the PZI family, you don't look at either # in isolation.

Glad Blackie got a decrease, yay, it is nice to see her doing so well!
Click to expand...


Joanna, it's been a long while since Blackie was on PZ or ProZinc for that matter. LOL My mind's on Lantus now. :)

Thank you for the compliment. :) She IS doing much better. :) Thank goodness.
 
ok, well we all know I HOPE that if a newbie is switching to low carb and is not yet testing or only amps and pmps testing that it is ALWAYS reccommended to lower dose right?

and the reason for this thread is becuase nobody here is really an expert or even close on pro zinc....we are trying to even put together things most of us agree upon. ;-)

as far as opening this thread to the 'outside' world LOL :lol: it is dicey. sue is such a totally great member with the newbie's and hypo's over on health and we can always trust her and probably others too. but most of us know what happens. do we dare bring this thread to the entire board? we are just the users learning together. kind of like a closed meeting of narcotics anonymous. it's up to the group but non-users, and generally those who are lantus groupie's will not likely add much and might take away from the point.

it's a learning curve here...so i don't think others need to comment unless they are friendly members who support us and really have ideas to toss in.

sue you should really be here as you are so often the first responder for newbie's
 
lori and tom said:
ok, well we all know I HOPE that if a newbie is switching to low carb and is not yet testing or only amps and pmps testing that it is ALWAYS reccommended to lower dose right?
Click to expand...

Yes. Always. Back to 1u as you can always build up from there. That's what I had to do with Blackie.
 
Sue and Oliver said:
I would not post on this forum without your okay.
Click to expand...

Absolutely DO post here if you want!!! There is no one here who is official enough to give an OK really, we are a hodge-podge group. Although I can only speak for myself, I would say none of us would claim that we are "experts" or know more than anyone else who has some PZI experience. IMO everyone has something to contribute, and we can use all the help we can get here from anyone who is willing to post. If someone had no PZI experience that would be weird of course to be posting advice, but if you used it for 6 months & got your kitty into remission... you are as expert as anyone else IMO!!!!! Hard to argue with a successful track record!
 
lori and tom said:
i scream at some of the amps you guys in lantus shoot...eeeeeks. BOS!
Click to expand...

Oh, come now, Lori... You LOVE the excitement over in LL all the while biting your nails to the quick. LOL You still following Blackie's progress? Or even peeking on occasion? LOL :) I welcome any peeking from you all. :) Not showing off here... Just simply proud of how she's doing, is all.
 
angela whilst i am definetly still a drama queen (and too old to be one) i am always astounded at some of those numbers!!!! yes i follow you and blackie. i follow celi for pure entertainment do you?, i follow marjorie as she is a friend, you guys are BOS. no one here knows for example that you may shoot 2U's into amps 80 ???????????? and while i do understand the protocol...i'm glad i'm not doing it. waiting for my cat to go under 40bgs for 'permission' to lower dose? haha_smiley i don't think i have the B's. :lol:
 
lori and tom said:
O O O can we clarify 'regulation' as i think a few of us have differing idea's as to what that means.
for me regulation is just spending most of the day below the renal threshold of 250.
most of the day in the blue's or greens. even if the amps or pmps is still yellow.
Click to expand...

I am late to this, but Lori this is something I too would like to have like an operational definition of what is actually regulation. :)
 
well christina maybe we'll start a thread on just that alone. my thought has already been stated. spending most of the day under 150 and ps's under 250. of course tom is ususally above that number in the am by about 20..but he makes up for it by being under 200 and usually 160-180 in the pm. soooooooook, he's regulated for me.
you can start that thread. i think it will get lots of feedback.
 
ProZinc and "shed"

A couple more notes. I think there has been some thought that ProZinc has a "shed." My belief is that it does not have anything like that. And I don't think I even noticed any "overlap." Though I best some others probably would say they have noticed overlap. I think it is important to note that the two folks I'm aware of that have had long term success with ProZinc [Robin and I] have ultimately [once we got though the introduction phase] used in a "variable" fashion with doses changing ever or nearly every cycle. This is not to say that that is what will be best for every cat, just that I don't think a "shed" would allow for success with that type of strategy.
 
I agree Gator, I don't believe that PZ has a shed but I do feel that some kitties can have a duration of 10 to 14 hours which can get them to the next PS before they zoom up again making it easier to get them regulated.
 
Also frequently when others [including myself] were starting out I've observed an "early" nadir [before +5] and sometimes even a sharp early nadir. It's not infrequent to see that nadir happen later once the dose is increased to a range that is more where the kitty needs it [and perhaps the kitty gets more used to the insulin]. But by no means is this a hard rule.

Joanna had mentioned how this might also be attributed lack of overlap here:
viewtopic.php?p=300326#p300326
 
pro-zinc does NOT have a shed, it is a MEDIUM acting insulin with no true overlap.
we should have a group think on this topic alone.
 
I am an old timer who had great success with pzi vet with my Garth, now I am back with my Sonnie using prozinc. I only been back on insulin 2 days , and I am dealing with infection.
as far as dose with pzi vet the highest I ever went was 1.5 u that was 3 days. it did take him 7 days to settle a dose. What I found with Garth, was I could never skip a shot, I could not shoot at 169, so if he gave me one, I would feed, check at food spike usually +2, sometimes he was still dropping, I would get over lap , so inwould wait till he was at a number to shoot and I did, sometimes it was +14 , +16 +18.if I shot at + 12, I always got 24 hr.. then eventually he was diet controlled. the last two months beforehe went off insulin, I wasnt using every 12 hr protocol, I shot according to his numbers, at first it was a lot of testing , then I knew at certain ps numbers how long I had to check . I wish my old profile for Garth was available you could see exactly what I did, I also controlled his diet calories per pound, he was a hefty boy when dx 29lbs big boy, so as he lost weight I sdjusted csrbs and calories. thank you all for the info you have taken time to post, it is helping me alot, I am cautious now because I am a bit rusty, but it will all come back plusni learn new things. the second time around I dont have the fear, so this sugar dance is bit more calm:)
 
Rob & Harley (GA) said:
Here you go Gator, Marcy & Klinger remembered these guys, PM these people and find out why they didn't stick around. I donated most of my Sunday to them when they were in need and they never came back. I have flirted with leaving many times because of things like this.

Sweetcherrypie was coming around until I pushed her to set up a ss and Michelle and Peeps offered to help her and we havn't seen her since.

There is another newbie recently who posted and havn't heard from them since.

Is it us? Or our lack of organization and support?

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27637&p=281644&hilit=jacksdads#p281644
Click to expand...

Hi guys... I didn't have this feeling when I was using ProZinc, mostly cuz Kim was showing me the ropes and helping me get my little turnip to bleed, but I have to say, when I first got the Acro dx, I was totally overwhelmed. Overwhelmed by the behavior of the Lev, overwhelmed by the people calling me to join the Acro group, overwhelmed by Facebook (which I previously hadn't done much of), ...that I was a beginner again with much to learn, ... that people started talking about cooking and knitting groups, ... that treatment was $$$, that my timing at work was difficult, that I had so much to read & learn.

I think all those things translate to a newbie here. Like I said, I wasn't overwhelmed here, but I can see how someone WITHOUT a Kim to get me through, would be.

Since changing Grayson over, and learning to shoot lower numbers, when I pop in on PZI, sometimes I feel like everyone here is shooting REALLY conservatively. I'm reluctant sometimes, but I think back to 250 being my "do not shoot" number. Even my vet, when she first saw my spreadsheet, said several of the low numbers I had initially, when we were cycling REALLY long - 18-24 hrs, were actually shootable. But I've been away from ProZinc for a year now, so I don't feel qualified to say TOO much about shooting lower numbers, when the regular folks here aren't encouraging that. And I don't want to step on anyone's toes.

There is great value in having a spreadsheet, and it's hard to advise someone if you can't see their numbers. But I think a lot of people might still be reeling from the dx when they first find us, so maybe the value in explaining the value of the SS could be conveyed a little stronger than it is.

My 2 cents.

Lu-Ann
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top